Windows Based Next Gen Pandora?

[Karel Jansens]

I fully agree that Linux is a much better option for almost everything, BUT gaming. If you enjoy old games, I'm sure you've heard countless times that "PC gaming is dead". It's always the same, so I remain sceptic. I doubt it will ever die because it has no licence cost in creating a game vs consoles, and you have millions of potential players for your game. Last gen Crytek came out of nowhere with Far Cry, this gen we have Stalker developers, plus there's a blooming russian and eastern european PC market with games like The Witcher. Ironically console games keep moving towards PC like the latest silent hill, gears of war, street fighter IV, Devil May Cry 4, etc.

Yeah Vista is failing, but people are not moving to Linux, they're staying or going back to XP. I don't see any trace of the world moving towards Linux in masses anytime sorry. I know almost no one that uses Linux regularly in the real world. People wants things simple, compatible and easy. Ubuntu and other distro are a lot more accesible now but it's not yet there to Windows levels.

Look, you're basically asking for the Pandora developers to drop everything they've learned, ditch the OMAP processor (and the goodwill they created at TI) for Intel's inferior Atom and estrange their existing user base and developer community just so's you can have a Start button.

It ain't gonna happen, and the premiss is ridiculous, bordering on trolling. Give it up already.

 

[mindlord]

QUOTE
I fully agree that Linux is a much better option for almost everything, BUT gaming. If you enjoy old games, I'm sure you've heard countless times that "PC gaming is dead". It's always the same, so I remain sceptic. I doubt it will ever die because it has no licence cost in creating a game vs consoles, and you have millions of potential players for your game. Last gen Crytek came out of nowhere with Far Cry, this gen we have Stalker developers, plus there's a blooming russian and eastern european PC market with games like The Witcher. Ironically console games keep moving towards PC like the latest silent hill, gears of war, street fighter IV, Devil May Cry 4, etc.

Yeah Vista is failing, but people are not moving to Linux, they're staying or going back to XP. I don't see any trace of the world moving towards Linux in masses anytime sorry. I know almost no one that uses Linux regularly in the real world. People wants things simple, compatible and easy. Ubuntu and other distro are a lot more accesible now but it's not yet there to Windows levels.



When the major software houses abandon the PC, or at least stop publishing every title for it because of lack of public interest and all you have left is independent software houses like those mentioned, that is the end of the beginning of the end. It's a downward spiral from here for the gaming PC. The major houses don't really care about license fees because they make their money back tenfold on closed platforms that are much harder to pirate. They don't have to pay for expensive copy protection schemes that don't work. The reason console games are migrating toward the PC is a really bad sign. That means code that was originally written for another processor is being retrofitted onto the x86 and requiring even beefier and more expensive machines to run well. The big picture is scary as far as games go.

Here's an example that lends to my argument. My nephew has been a fan of the Madden series of football games for the PC for years. He has always played the PC version of the game because it ran well, and had better support for online play and updated rosters, and if there was a bug it could be patched. The console counterparts could not do this. Things were good. But along comes the XBOX 360 and suddenly the requirements for the game jumps dramatically on the PC. No big deal, his machine is full well capable of playing the newest incarnation but the XBOX version does what the PC version can do! It is specially tuned to play well with the comfortable controller and best of all looks spectacular on his new HD TV. For the first time in a decade the console version of what has been a staple title for EA is better than the PC version. All of the previous limitations are gone. Internet access to the console allows superior online play, updated rosters, and bug fixes, and rock solid game play with a comfortable controller. Oh, and the living room comfort factor can't be dismissed. Sure he could've hooked his PC up to the TV in the living room, I even attempted to help him make the conversion. Ultimately, thought, that sucks for general computing. Gaming has moved from his desktop PC in the bedroom to the Living room and he couldn't be happier about it.

 

[nubie]

I fully agree that Linux is a much better option for almost everything, BUT gaming. If you enjoy old games, I'm sure you've heard countless times that "PC gaming is dead". It's always the same, so I remain sceptic. I doubt it will ever die because it has no licence cost in creating a game vs consoles, and you have millions of potential players for your game.
Um, then you don't understand an OPEN SYSTEM??, no license cost. Hello. Free dev tools, Hello? And nobody is stopping you from charging for your game or forcing you to release the source.


QUOTE
Last gen Crytek came out of nowhere with Far Cry, this gen we have Stalker developers, plus there's a blooming russian and eastern european PC market with games like The Witcher. Ironically console games keep moving towards PC like the latest silent hill, gears of war, street fighter IV, Devil May Cry 4, etc.

Yeah Vista is failing, but people are not moving to Linux, they're staying or going back to XP. I don't see any trace of the world moving towards Linux in masses anytime sorry. I know almost no one that uses Linux regularly in the real world. People wants things simple, compatible and easy. Ubuntu and other distro are a lot more accesible now but it's not yet there to Windows levels.


I don't think you understand, a handheld system is entirely different than a windows system. There isn't enough screen space for a desktop OS.

OpenGL runs just fine on a desktop or a handheld, or a Mac or a PC, or an ARM.

There are plenty of games for SDL on Windows and Linux, DirectX and windows is useless.

I am sorry that the current gaming trend is crap, PC has the latest software because PC gets the latest hardware, a Console or a Handheld don't upgrade hardware piecemeal, so those not playing mobile will buy a PC because the game has much better resolution or frame rate or special effects.

Microsoft and Intel both want your money, they spend millions on advertising to make you think that "Games for Windows™" and "Intel Atom is the ultimate™" aren't just the same old thing we have had all along. They are, just because now the advertising budget increased doesn't make any of this true.

 

[craigix]

I see things a little different, I think a lot of those games will be playable under emulation in the next 2 generations of ARM Socs and that rather than needing a certain chipset games will likely start to show up running via the internet, I think especially this will be the case with online RPGs, I can see virtual machines with direct access to the 3D hardware being what will push these things forward.

Games publishers would jump at the marketing chance of just having a (next gen) demo run in a browser window *on any device which can run a modern browser* with a button to buy the full game.

That's how I see things going in the next 5 years on the net, I think Google will be pushing for things like that and Chrome is the first step.

 

[FRZ]

You an evil man IceBerg. An evil evil man.

Correction, an evil little man.

If you want a small windows PC that fits in your (large) pocket get an oQo !...

http://www.oqo.com/intl/

I bought one of these this year, regularly play Half-Life , Red Alert II on it and many other games.

Very cool machines just pricey !

Yep, very pricey. I've seen it now for a while and it does look like pocketable windows machine.

 

[nubie]

I see things a little different, I think a lot of those games will be playable under emulation in the next 2 generations of ARM Socs and that rather than needing a certain chipset games will likely start to show up running via the internet, I think especially this will be the case with online RPGs, I can see virtual machines with direct access to the 3D hardware being what will push these things forward.

Games publishers would jump at the marketing chance of just having a (next gen) demo run in a browser window *on any device which can run a modern browser* with a button to buy the full game.

That's how I see things going in the next 5 years on the net, I think Google will be pushing for things like that and Chrome is the first step.

Interesting points, ARM is getting very very fast indeed, all we really need is real multi-processor and an x86 dyna-rec. (is there any reason that a hardware x86 code accelerator couldn't allow us speed of say the Xbox main processor? only used for the most difficult to reverse compile or emulate code of course)

Plus why have all that power in your pocket? I believe the PS3 has successfully demonstrated that you can game on a handheld with all the power of the latest generation of consoles. By playing the game over wifi with compressed video and control streaming you could have a 30-hour device the size of the DS lite that could play Crysis on a 1280x720p display!! Not to mention fully access your desktop.

If broadband and wireless speed penetration increases we could surely see games running on servers where they belong. There is nothing wrong with a few ms lag between controls and compressed video being shown on-screen.

Nobody can predict the future though, still waiting for my jetpack

 

[jellmoo]

I see things a little different, I think a lot of those games will be playable under emulation in the next 2 generations of ARM Socs and that rather than needing a certain chipset games will likely start to show up running via the internet, I think especially this will be the case with online RPGs, I can see virtual machines with direct access to the 3D hardware being what will push these things forward.

Games publishers would jump at the marketing chance of just having a (next gen) demo run in a browser window *on any device which can run a modern browser* with a button to buy the full game.

That's how I see things going in the next 5 years on the net, I think Google will be pushing for things like that and Chrome is the first step.

My god! If I twist your words around just right, I think you guaranteed that I can play World of Warcraft on Pandora!

 

[nubie]

Just remember that there was a VIA prototype handheld x86 console already planned, I remember seeing it when the GP2X pre-orders started (2005). Very neat idea, not possible to execute.

I bet you the thing you want would be possible in the size of the Atari Lynx with 10 hour battery life in the next couple years.

Atom has very high clock speeds with not that much actual work going on. The x86 code is not as tight as the ARM code because x86 has had plenty of processing power on the desktop platforms.

ARM has tons of very tight (optimized) code because it has always been an embedded system with very low processing power in comparison.

QUOTE

My god! If I twist your words around just right, I think you guaranteed that I can play World of Warcraft on Pandora!

:lol: :lol:

Why not? If streammygame is ported (and it is just a control uploader + sync + mpeg4 downloader), it is entirely possible.

 

[ljones]

If pandora came with WinCE or any other version of windows, I wouldn't be getting one at all - ever. Unless you're running wince it'll mean x86, which means power hungry hardware. Also as others have said, this is an open source device and windows isn't open source.

A "Pandora" running windows wouldn't be much different from any other run-of-the-mill windows device. If that was the case it would better to buy an ordinary laptop. And while I think of it....

Who wants a copy of microsoft's godawful corporate c**p software anyway?! Not me!

IHMO there are changes occuring right throughout the whole computing arena. MS Windows is starting to fade. x86 systems might start to vanish in time as well - the 64 bit x86 systems are still unpopular after *years*, most are sticking with 32 bit. Plus the desktop x86 chips use too much power. How big will your next power supply have to be? 300W 500W 1000W? (!). And as others have pointed out, gaming could change as well. IHMO in time I suspect communities growing up around ideas for games could replace game companies. All the tools exist to make a half decent game, it just requires the impitus to do so. Me, I seriously doubt that in 10 years from now it'll still be the same old x86/windows setup. And I suspect too that there is a social change or shift regarding computers, software and hardware too. It won't be like it was in the past; the 1980s and that way of dealing with software are dead and gone.

Give it 10 years, and I suspect MS windows will be in at least part vanished or forgotten, maybe only used by a few people and big companies which need to keep old OSes and systems running. In 20 years, MS windows will be all but forgotten.

ljones

 

[nubie]

I think the true test of the Atom is the device that Intel wants to bring to market in the next 2-3 years: a slower and bigger iPhone.

WTF makes me say "ooh, I need some of that in my life"?

 

[rmm2131]

I use XP for my computer needs since it runs programs Linux just doesn't have in the polished forms I need. Now i'm no fan of M$, but I have to say that apart from handheld gaming, Linux trails behind for console emulation(and PC gaming)under a desk computer environment. I could say the same for Leopard too.

Sure you can tweak and sqweek Linux for support and maybe find a near comparable port to Linux, but a simple google search gives a plethora of superior emulator goodness under Windows XP: Project64, ePSXe, no$gba, even nullDC(awesomeness). Nothing even close in functionality as of September 2008 under the other OS's. Reality is reality even if we don't like it people.

 

[oblivioner]

QUOTE
When the major software houses abandon the PC...


Really, it won't happen. In one or two years PC graphics will laugh at consoles, and then PC scene will renew again as always. It happened with PS1, then with PS2, at their peak the pc gaming was dying, but the gamer is a weak animal and eye candy is king. Say 2010, 2011, PCs will destroy consoles in graphics and PCs will rise again, like it's always been.
What major software houses are leaving PC by the way? Electronic Arts and Ubisoft, nope, and they're the world biggest publishers. Capcom, no, Konami, no. Valve, no. Blizzard, no. Bioware, no. Bethesda, no. Please tell me. Worst case they're going multiplatform, like Crytek, but never leaving PC gaming entirely. There's money to be made on PC and that's the last word for developers, even with piracy, which has been common to every console released too but PS3 (and we'll see when BD burners become affordable).

QUOTE
I see things a little different, I think a lot of those games will be playable under emulation in the next 2 generations of ARM Socs and that rather than needing a certain chipset games will likely start to show up running via the internet, I think especially this will be the case with online RPGs, I can see virtual machines with direct access to the 3D hardware being what will push these things forward.


Awesome, I hope you're right.

In any case, I see there's no point in arguing any more. I'm a gamer first and foremost, I don't care about OS, but indeed the Windows topic is way too sensitive and close to trolling as has been mentioned, so I won't keep talking any more about it so I don't get banned, I'll get the Pandora for what it is, and that's a lot, while I keep waiting for some chance of playing great old windows games somerwhere else, either raon, wibrain, oqo or whatever.

 

[mindlord]

Madden 2009 won't even appear on the PC, so there you go. Electronic Arts one of the biggest houses on the planet decided not to put one of it's staple games on the PC. Oblivioner, you'd like to think my line of thought is narrow and short sighted, and that I didn't live through previous cycles. This time it is way different. The PC is weaker than it has ever been, on all fronts.

 

[Xisiqomelir]

No, I would never buy such a thing, not least because Windows is ass.

 

[Chip]

I think some of you are getting the wrong idea. For my part, I have no expectations that the next generation (or any future generation) of the Pandora will run Windows. Craig is solidly behind Linux and open source gaming, and you hardly need x86 or Windows for that.

But an x86-based, WinXP-running gaming handheld is very nearly possible now. In a few years, the next gen Atom cores will be available in low power SoCs with DX9/10 compatible graphics cores. At that point, it won't take long for somebody to figure out the obvious.

As this conversation has little, if anything, to do with the Pandora, I'm moving it to Off Topic.

 

[atomicthumbs]

Dum de dum de doo, Handheld PCs.

 

[conso]

I see things a little different, I think a lot of those games will be playable under emulation in the next 2 generations of ARM Socs and that rather than needing a certain chipset games will likely start to show up running via the internet, I think especially this will be the case with online RPGs, I can see virtual machines with direct access to the 3D hardware being what will push these things forward.

Games publishers would jump at the marketing chance of just having a (next gen) demo run in a browser window *on any device which can run a modern browser* with a button to buy the full game.

That's how I see things going in the next 5 years on the net, I think Google will be pushing for things like that and Chrome is the first step.

My god! If I twist your words around just right, I think you guaranteed that I can play World of Warcraft on Pandora!

No, actually he meant World of Warcraft 2 or World of Starcraft :rolleyes:

 

[atomicthumbs]

If Craig and co. decided to make this thing for some reason, they could call it the Windora.

Or ClosedPandora.

 

[AireTamStorm]

You guys keep going on about "can happen", "can't happen", "will happen", "won't happen".... Oblivioner, what it comes down to is this: If the Pandora ran Winblows, I'd have zero interest in buying it. Not nearly as flexible and functional with Windows as it would be with Linux. Gaming is nowhere nearly "healthy" on PCs, it is dying. Graphics jumps mean nothing in front of making money, and there are enough platforms out there to make a killing on without the elitist PC market. PC as we know it today gaming will die, because there are devices designed to do gaming that do it better (consoles).

Windows would mean closed platform and paying microsoft money. Neither are necessary for success, both would make the device less functional.

 

[TaG]

wouldn't you like a Windows based Pandora?

No.

Longer, more detailed and reflective answer:

NO!

If Craig and co. decided to make this thing for some reason, they could call it the Windora.

Or ClosedPandora.

No, names are getting shorter, like Wiz, oQo etc. I'd call it Meh!

When the tech is ready, I expect MS to release XboxPortable and design it to run old pc games - which you'd have to buy again in the new format.

But if Windows and Microsloth Office stay on top (also doubtful) and my employers offers me a pocketable business device, so that I could be more productive and not at the office for so many hours...