Kings
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oblivioner said:
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Windows Based Next Gen Pandora?
- Thread starter oblivioner
- Start date
Chip said:
There was a proposed UMPC by Averatec that had gaming controls and a slide out keyboard. It turned out to be vapourware. The idea of an x86 based gaming handheld is not new, it's just something that can't be well implemented currently. Plus, imo the only reason x86 is still so dominant is because of the gigantic amount of software that is closed source and windows only. I'd love an x86 handheld similar in design to pandora that would run all my favourite apps and games that will currently only run on x86 in windows, but only because of the apps/games not because of a preference in os or architecture.
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If you want good gameplay framerates for an UMPC, your best bet is to get a Raon Digital Everun Note ( see this link ) which is 200 mm wide, 118 mm high (or deep) and 27.5 mm thick and 780 g (comparison Pandora is 140 mm x 83 mm x 27 mm, weight unknown, so slightly smaller but almost just as thick). Think an EEE with all the fat trimmed off, but much more expensive. It is speedy compared to the Intel UMPC's because it uses the 690's IGP instead of something like the 950 (and to a lesser factor because of its out of order dual core processor). Gaming controls will likely suck, with an optical trackpad/touchpad and regular keyboard (although it does feature a touch screen) and the battery is only slightly larger than Pandora which means it will be sucked dry before you know it and that is even with reduced performance. Plugged in and at full speed it draws 35W, that is at least several factors or maybe even an order more than 
andora1: . So that means that for practical UMPC x86 gaming with newer games you will still be tethered to a power cord or suffer worse framerates. Streammygame on a pandora may be a better option
p.s. Still I am wondering why they did not go with the 780G which is even twice as fast and draws only a bit more.
p.p.s. I wonder if these sizes are correct, I took them from the pandora wiki and from the raon pdf, but if I look at the pandora + EEE pictures, and then look at the size of the screen of the EEE (which is the same 7 inch as the raon note) and think what it would look like with trimmed fat, it still looks so much bigger than theandora1:
andora1: . So that means that for practical UMPC x86 gaming with newer games you will still be tethered to a power cord or suffer worse framerates. Streammygame on a pandora may be a better option p.s. Still I am wondering why they did not go with the 780G which is even twice as fast and draws only a bit more.
p.p.s. I wonder if these sizes are correct, I took them from the pandora wiki and from the raon pdf, but if I look at the pandora + EEE pictures, and then look at the size of the screen of the EEE (which is the same 7 inch as the raon note) and think what it would look like with trimmed fat, it still looks so much bigger than the
andora1:
WizardStan
Mega GP Mania
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No. I wouldn't want a Windows based NDS or Windows based PSP, why would I want a Windows Pandora? The Pandora is what it is, and the CPU/OS is part of that. Quite simply, even if you replaced the CPU so it could run Windows and all Windows games natively, such a beast would no longer be a Pandora.oblivioner said:
Don't get me wrong, I am not opposed to a high performance Windows based handheld in a similar form factor as the Pandora, but it would not BE a Pandora.
Supposing a Pandora II is produced in a few years, I can't see it being designed to run anything but Linux. Maybe it uses a different processor, but moving from an open OS to a closed one would feel like an incredible step back.
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trooper
Trooper`s watching you !!!
WizardStan said:No. I wouldn't want a Windows based NDS or Windows based PSP, why would I want a Windows Pandora? The Pandora is what it is, and the CPU/OS is part of that. Quite simply, even if you replaced the CPU so it could run Windows and all Windows games natively, such a beast would no longer be a Pandora.oblivioner said:
Don't get me wrong, I am not opposed to a high performance Windows based handheld in a similar form factor as the Pandora, but it would not BE a Pandora.
Supposing a Pandora II is produced in a few years, I can't see it being designed to run anything but Linux. Maybe it uses a different processor, but moving from an open OS to a closed one would feel like an incredible step back.
A bit like what happened to the Psion netbook after Psion bit the dust, It went from Symbian Epoc to WinCE.
Trooper
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oblivioner
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QUOTE
Supposing a Pandora II is produced in a few years, I can't see it being designed to run anything but Linux. Maybe it uses a different processor, but moving from an open OS to a closed one would feel like an incredible step back.
Well, many manufacturers like Asus eee sell their hardware with either Linux or Windows at your choice, the more options the better.
QUOTE
If you want good gameplay framerates for an UMPC, your best bet is to get a Raon Digital Everun Note
It looks great but again no real gaming interface, no pocketable size and not good enough battery life.
QUOTE
Microsoft didn't code windows for gaming... Get over your Microsoft fetish
Still hundreds of the best games ever are sadly only available on windows.
QUOTE
I postulated the possibility of a similar device about 6 months back, and met a lot of resistance to the idea. I'd like to think the relative success of Atom in the netbook and UMPC markets in the last few months supports my theory of x86 as a viable handheld processor. There are already near Pandora-sized devices running on Atom, and there are smaller and more efficient chips in the works.
Sometime in the next few years, somebody will make an x86-based handheld with gaming controls. It probably won't be the Pandora team, but it will happen. Considering that nearly all of the money to be made in the PC gaming market is Windows-based, it's a no-brainer.
I'm well aware of the "resistance" part I also agree that it will probably happen, so I wish the Pandora team will be part of that. In business hitting first is key, if they succeed, investors may be interested in a similar device with Windows, and having a successful well-know brand would help. We're almost at the point where techology and costs can allow a mass market windows based gaming device which has hundreds of awesome games available from day 1. Pandora proves that now you can make almost such a beast happen at 250 euro, the thing is who will be first and if they will nail accesibility / price / technology / size / interface / battery life.
Supposing a Pandora II is produced in a few years, I can't see it being designed to run anything but Linux. Maybe it uses a different processor, but moving from an open OS to a closed one would feel like an incredible step back.
Well, many manufacturers like Asus eee sell their hardware with either Linux or Windows at your choice, the more options the better.
QUOTE
If you want good gameplay framerates for an UMPC, your best bet is to get a Raon Digital Everun Note
It looks great but again no real gaming interface, no pocketable size and not good enough battery life.
QUOTE
Microsoft didn't code windows for gaming... Get over your Microsoft fetish
Still hundreds of the best games ever are sadly only available on windows.
QUOTE
I postulated the possibility of a similar device about 6 months back, and met a lot of resistance to the idea. I'd like to think the relative success of Atom in the netbook and UMPC markets in the last few months supports my theory of x86 as a viable handheld processor. There are already near Pandora-sized devices running on Atom, and there are smaller and more efficient chips in the works.
Sometime in the next few years, somebody will make an x86-based handheld with gaming controls. It probably won't be the Pandora team, but it will happen. Considering that nearly all of the money to be made in the PC gaming market is Windows-based, it's a no-brainer.
I'm well aware of the "resistance" part
I also agree that it will probably happen, so I wish the Pandora team will be part of that. In business hitting first is key, if they succeed, investors may be interested in a similar device with Windows, and having a successful well-know brand would help. We're almost at the point where techology and costs can allow a mass market windows based gaming device which has hundreds of awesome games available from day 1. Pandora proves that now you can make almost such a beast happen at 250 euro, the thing is who will be first and if they will nail accesibility / price / technology / size / interface / battery life.jellmoo
Still Fresh
While it is still very early in development, ReactOS may provide an open source alternative to Windows. One day. Eventually...
rmm2131
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http://www.pocketables.net/2008/01/inventec-umpc-7.html
The bottom UMPC has a gaming attachment like the icontrolpad and with XP it should satisfy your needs when it's released later this year.
The bottom UMPC has a gaming attachment like the icontrolpad and with XP it should satisfy your needs when it's released later this year.
jellmoo
Still Fresh
sindbad said:
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zxxgp
Member
"The Eee PC has already shown then a machine running Linux can sell as well as – or even better than – a machine running Windows. Open source is the future, there is an ever increasing demand for such machines and manufacturers are now becoming aware of the fact you don't have to run Windows anymore – the internet is the future and it does not need Microsoft."
-Craig
http://www.pocketgamer.co.uk/r/Various/Pan...news.asp?c=8667
-Craig
http://www.pocketgamer.co.uk/r/Various/Pan...news.asp?c=8667
nubie
Recovering Jerk-A-Holic
oblivioner said:You're wrong about battery performance on a windows xp based umpc and 3d gpu.
Atom Z5xx is apparently going to give 6-7 hours battery life on umpcs like wibrain I1 running windows on standard battery. ( http://www.umpcportal.com/2008/07/wibrain-...d-umpc-details/ ) The Gpu is poulsbo based in the gma500 is not a great 3d hardware but should get some 3d games working about 3 or 4 years old.
I mean, in 2 months we're getting windows xp based umpcs with 6-7 hours of battery life and basic 3d gaming support (older Wibrain B1 has some nice pc gaming performance, so I1 should be at least performing a bit better). Thus it's not impossible at all that in 1 or 2 years you can create a Windows XP Pandora with 10 battery life, nice 3d performance and pocket sized.
I have to insist, I'm talking on a next-gen Pandora, not the current one, in one or two years, not now.
How about 5-6 years? The tech is not now, nor will be invented by your time frame.
I postulate that the ARM of 2-3 years from now will be on the order of 5-10 times more energy efficient than a competing x86 product.
OK, take a look at the prices of a Ti processor that does nearly everything in the Pandora, then take a look at a SIMILARLY POWERFUL Atom or as-yet-unreleased more integrated x86 processor (video card, northbridge on chip). It uses much more power and costs on the order of 4 times as much.oblivioner said:I'm well aware of the "resistance" part
I am sorry that you think the "wave of the future" is a much more expensive system on lower battery life.
A handheld system cannot run "amazing new games" on "Windows" any more than an ARM can. The games for the windows handheld will need to be written just the same as games for the Pandora or any other ARM or PowerPC based handheld system.
If you want a device that can play older games on the go you can investigate any of the proper systems with a Via or Intel chip.
Don't buy into the Atom hype, it is not the answer to everything, Intel releases a bunch of made up info and you can't believe it with credulity.
I like Atom, but it has its place. I am not sure you understand just how small the Pandora is, or how much electricity the Atom really uses (even the not yet released models).
I figure about 5 years, maybe 4 on the outside. We can't predict the future. If a miracle happens and the Atom successor is a viable candidate (nobody in the industry can honestly see that happening), then I am sure they will review it based on its merits compared with all the available processors.
Imaging trying to stuff a complete Xbox into a GameBoy micro and you will see why everyone is laughing. 5 years before this becomes possible at a ridiculous price, and I have my doubts if even then.
Even if the processor is in the system that is no guarantee that the system will run all the old software, some games need DirectX 5 or 6 on Windows 98SE, some need Windows 95, Some need DOS drivers etc etc. Assuming it would even be possible to do the hardware (and for the foreseeable future it is too expensive and energy hungry), wouldn't our time be better spent on new games or a Dos emulator, or making Wine run than fixing Dos drivers, DirectX drivers, and patching old games to be compatible with a processor they were never coded to run on?
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Ah history sure does repeat itself...
If you want an x86 machine the same size as the Pandora, get one of these off Ebay:
The LX is a nice machine, has about 15hrs+ battery life from two AA (very impressive for the time).
However, as has been pointed out in this thread, an ARM machine will beat an Intel SOC every time:
30hrs+ battery life and generally faster and more stable OS. It had proper multitasking too, unlike the DOS based LX.
It's sad really, HP had an amazing engineering team that made stuff that was good technology but the company wasn't making enough money on the machines, parts were too expensive or hard to source - they since shifted to WinCe with the Jornada and now they just make bog standard PocketPC machines.
Psion also stopped making their amazingly engineered machines to do mobile operating systems (Symbian) because that's where all the money was. The Pandora is definately a step back in the direction of making pocketable computers with keyboards - the fact they don't need a huge team to create an operating system and applications - thanks to Linux - is a total blessing.
If you want an x86 machine the same size as the Pandora, get one of these off Ebay:
The LX is a nice machine, has about 15hrs+ battery life from two AA (very impressive for the time).
However, as has been pointed out in this thread, an ARM machine will beat an Intel SOC every time:
30hrs+ battery life and generally faster and more stable OS. It had proper multitasking too, unlike the DOS based LX.
It's sad really, HP had an amazing engineering team that made stuff that was good technology but the company wasn't making enough money on the machines, parts were too expensive or hard to source - they since shifted to WinCe with the Jornada and now they just make bog standard PocketPC machines.
Psion also stopped making their amazingly engineered machines to do mobile operating systems (Symbian) because that's where all the money was. The Pandora is definately a step back in the direction of making pocketable computers with keyboards - the fact they don't need a huge team to create an operating system and applications - thanks to Linux - is a total blessing.
mindlord
Notices Two Things
I understand the desire to run Windows on a portable gaming handheld. I also agree that it defeats the Pandora's purpose. My advice to the OP, embrace the future. The Pandora and devices like it are going to become the next Personal Computing platform. Microsoft and indeed desktop PC is loosing it's grip.. No one is going to pay 200$ (Think about that! The Pandora is only $130 more than Windows Vista (A piece of software)! Linux is a good, cheap, secure alternative for businesses looking to reduce the bottom line. By the time a small busniess gets done paying Microsoft for their OS, and office package they could've bought another whole workstation. With emulators providing backwards compatibility with old software and opensource solutions to replace antiquated or costly other technologies it's just bad business not to switch.
It is also my opinon that Windows/x86 is being usurped as the premier gaming platform by the consoles anyways, and it seems that any truly awesome game that has appeared for the PC in the past several years has had to be dumbed down to accomadate the console counterpart TES:IV Oblivion is a good example of this.
Microsoft definately knows the score, a closed architecture is easier to control, and prevent piracy on. They will continue to to nudge the public in that direction for the home user. It's simple economics. The fact that Microsoft is alienating everyone from Windows XP back by making directX 10 Vista only is a hint at the future of forced upgrade paths that Microsoft wants everyone on. Microsoft's future is the XBOX/MSNTV hybrid devices with tightly guarded architectures and heavily encrypted game discs. Where developers are paying Microsoft for the priveledge of using their platform.
I don't expect the gaming PC to survive the next few console generations. It's going to get passed up because the games will never live up the the hardware's potential (or cost). I full well expect the game console to replace the desktop in the average home in short order, since they are creeping ever closer to the media PC market anyways. It seems an obvious evolution. Once the gaming PC dies there will be no reason for the average end user to want Windows on their desktops either. Most people I've talked who have tried Linux repeat the same mantra "I loved Linux while I ran it, and would gladly switch permanently IF[/] I could play (Insert game name here)". Once bleeding edge games are out of the equation, Linux will spread like fire at an oil refinery. Getting Firefox onto more desktops will speed the transition since the browser is the single most used piece of software on computers these days.
Enjoy your PC games while they last, because it's only a matter of time before the only games anyone plays on them are web-based flash games anyways.
I am confident that any from the past few generations worth playing will have a port to linux, or an opensource interpreter created. Especially since ARM based devices are becoming increasingly popular amoung the Linux community.
* gets of his soapbox *
It is also my opinon that Windows/x86 is being usurped as the premier gaming platform by the consoles anyways, and it seems that any truly awesome game that has appeared for the PC in the past several years has had to be dumbed down to accomadate the console counterpart TES:IV Oblivion is a good example of this.
Microsoft definately knows the score, a closed architecture is easier to control, and prevent piracy on. They will continue to to nudge the public in that direction for the home user. It's simple economics. The fact that Microsoft is alienating everyone from Windows XP back by making directX 10 Vista only is a hint at the future of forced upgrade paths that Microsoft wants everyone on. Microsoft's future is the XBOX/MSNTV hybrid devices with tightly guarded architectures and heavily encrypted game discs. Where developers are paying Microsoft for the priveledge of using their platform.
I don't expect the gaming PC to survive the next few console generations. It's going to get passed up because the games will never live up the the hardware's potential (or cost). I full well expect the game console to replace the desktop in the average home in short order, since they are creeping ever closer to the media PC market anyways. It seems an obvious evolution. Once the gaming PC dies there will be no reason for the average end user to want Windows on their desktops either. Most people I've talked who have tried Linux repeat the same mantra "I loved Linux while I ran it, and would gladly switch permanently IF[/] I could play (Insert game name here)". Once bleeding edge games are out of the equation, Linux will spread like fire at an oil refinery. Getting Firefox onto more desktops will speed the transition since the browser is the single most used piece of software on computers these days.
Enjoy your PC games while they last, because it's only a matter of time before the only games anyone plays on them are web-based flash games anyways.
I am confident that any from the past few generations worth playing will have a port to linux, or an opensource interpreter created. Especially since ARM based devices are becoming increasingly popular amoung the Linux community.
* gets of his soapbox *
oblivioner
Still Fresh
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mindlord said:I understand the desire to run Windows on a portable gaming handheld. I also agree that it defeats the Pandora's purpose. My advice to the OP, embrace the future. The Pandora and devices like it are going to become the next Personal Computing platform. Microsoft and indeed desktop PC is loosing it's grip.. No one is going to pay 200$ (Think about that! The Pandora is only $130 more than Windows Vista (A piece of software)! Linux is a good, cheap, secure alternative for businesses looking to reduce the bottom line. By the time a small busniess gets done paying Microsoft for their OS, and office package they could've bought another whole workstation. With emulators providing backwards compatibility with old software and opensource solutions to replace antiquated or costly other technologies it's just bad business not to switch.
It is also my opinon that Windows/x86 is being usurped as the premier gaming platform by the consoles anyways, and it seems that any truly awesome game that has appeared for the PC in the past several years has had to be dumbed down to accomadate the console counterpart TES:IV Oblivion is a good example of this.
Microsoft definately knows the score, a closed architecture is easier to control, and prevent piracy on. They will continue to to nudge the public in that direction for the home user. It's simple economics. The fact that Microsoft is alienating everyone from Windows XP back by making directX 10 Vista only is a hint at the future of forced upgrade paths that Microsoft wants everyone on. Microsoft's future is the XBOX/MSNTV hybrid devices with tightly guarded architectures and heavily encrypted game discs. Where developers are paying Microsoft for the priveledge of using their platform.
I don't expect the gaming PC to survive the next few console generations. It's going to get passed up because the games will never live up the the hardware's potential (or cost). I full well expect the game console to replace the desktop in the average home in short order, since they are creeping ever closer to the media PC market anyways. It seems an obvious evolution. Once the gaming PC dies there will be no reason for the average end user to want Windows on their desktops either. Most people I've talked who have tried Linux repeat the same mantra "I loved Linux while I ran it, and would gladly switch permanently IF[/] I could play (Insert game name here)". Once bleeding edge games are out of the equation, Linux will spread like fire at an oil refinery. Getting Firefox onto more desktops will speed the transition since the browser is the single most used piece of software on computers these days.
Enjoy your PC games while they last, because it's only a matter of time before the only games anyone plays on them are web-based flash games anyways.
I am confident that any from the past few generations worth playing will have a port to linux, or an opensource interpreter created. Especially since ARM based devices are becoming increasingly popular amoung the Linux community.
* gets of his soapbox *
I fully agree that Linux is a much better option for almost everything, BUT gaming. If you enjoy old games, I'm sure you've heard countless times that "PC gaming is dead". It's always the same, so I remain sceptic. I doubt it will ever die because it has no licence cost in creating a game vs consoles, and you have millions of potential players for your game. Last gen Crytek came out of nowhere with Far Cry, this gen we have Stalker developers, plus there's a blooming russian and eastern european PC market with games like The Witcher. Ironically console games keep moving towards PC like the latest silent hill, gears of war, street fighter IV, Devil May Cry 4, etc.
Yeah Vista is failing, but people are not moving to Linux, they're staying or going back to XP. I don't see any trace of the world moving towards Linux in masses anytime sorry. I know almost no one that uses Linux regularly in the real world. People wants things simple, compatible and easy. Ubuntu and other distro are a lot more accesible now but it's not yet there to Windows levels.
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Take a look at the DigiFriends MID:
http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/08/hands-o...ends-wibro-mid/
It can be used as a tablet, but add-ons turn it into a clamshell. Several add-ons are available, including an extended battery, keyboard, and a gamepad.
jam
http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/08/hands-o...ends-wibro-mid/
It can be used as a tablet, but add-ons turn it into a clamshell. Several add-ons are available, including an extended battery, keyboard, and a gamepad.
jam
Karel Jansens
Active Member
I have this dream where I gut my Pandora and stuff everything in a Psion Series 5mx shell. That keyboard is just so amazing (the rest of the machine is less impressive, especially the awful screen).ashdjones said:
Pandora is not exactly a step back; it adds the stuff Psions were missing, notably modern connectivity and multimedia capabilities. Psions were expensive for a reason. Take e.g. the Series 5 keyboard: Psion had the keys and spring mechanism custom built (this is not a membrane keyboard, but every key has its own cantilever mechanism inside). The result is the world's smallest touchtype-ready keyboard.
Note: Yes, I know the Pandora guts wouldn't fit inside a Series 5xx. It's a dream...
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