Release Why not Maemo?

[cobaltage]

Don't know anything about coding, but I do own a Nokia 770 Internet Tablet. Granted, I stopped using it a while ago and never upgraded to the N800 series. But I thought the platform had a lot of promise, which is why I got the 770 and similarly why I pre-ordered the Open Pandora. In part, the reason I prefer the Pandora now is the controls. I can do a lot of things with an iPhone 3G that I would have done on an Internet Tablet, so the Pandora is more complementary to the iPhone (especially if I jailbreak it and start wifi tethering the Pandora). That said, there is certainly sophisticated software development for maemo, and the hardware specs are similar enough that, if it's at all possible to actually have a fully fledged version of maemo available for the Pandora, minus the 3G networking, I would be all in favor of that. It would solve a number of problems for users, like non-disruptive updates and access to the new stuff coming out on the platform (see below).

Anyway, there was a conference this week about maemo 5 (Fremantle) and the next generation of the hardware series, so I thought I'd throw up some links for people who might be interested. In brief, they're talking about 3G networking (with code contributed by Nokia), a TI OMAP3 CPU, hardware accelerated graphics with OpenGL ES 2.0 and Clutter, and something about a hi-def camera. There's a lot of coverage on the event from http://www.internettablettalk.com for anyone interested.

http://www.internettablettalk.com/2008/ ... n-maemo-5/
https://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Maemo_roadmap/Fremantle
http://tabletblog.com/2008/09/maemo-sum ... at-it.html
http://www.internettablettalk.com/2008/ ... r-session/

Flash video link:
http://linuxuk.org/node/61

Like I said, I'm in favor of the whole maemo on Pandora thing. I would even wonder if there couldn't be official sponsorship of a version of maemo for the Pandora. It seems like it would benefit both parties.

 

[mali]

I would even wonder if there couldn't be official sponsorship of a version of maemo for the Pandora

I don't think that will happen.

It seems like it would benefit both parties.

Definitely.

Some ITT people have already preordered, and there is further interest how the reviews go. I think it is just a matter of days/weeks till diablo is ported. Dream...

 

[cobaltage]

Some ITT people have already preordered, and there is further interest how the reviews go. I think it is just a matter of days/weeks till diablo is ported. Dream...

Right on.

 

[Polossatik]

As a N800 owner/user I think Maemo would be a very good choice to have for the Pandora.

Excellent applications exist and seen the N8x0 series was not really aimed at games it might be very useful for all people (like me) who see the pandora really not as a pure emulator box but more as a very nice "general" computing device.

Fun things like maemomapper - a more or less GPS guiding system who can download (bitmap) maps from google or other sources - would be appreciated by a lot of people here I think.

Or maybe it then would be maybe possible to use the "map" application (Wayfinder navigator) which is a very fine GPS navigation system (aldo closed source and need to pay $$$ for the guiding part). It's quite handy to have a complete map of europa in your pocket .
Don't know if http://www.wayfinder.com/?id=5356 would allow to "preload" or make available the "free" version (no guidence) that is shipped with the N8x0 series (maybe Nokia pay's for this) but if they can make the application work without much hassle why not? (and no I'm not affiliate to wayfinder, just like the stuff)

There is also already a decent infrastructure in place (maemo garage) so why not use it?
And like said, there are a bunch of ITT (http://www.internettablettalk.com/) people who also pre-ordered the pandora.

Aldo I realise the hardware was the first step, I must say that there is ample information about what OS the "community" would like to see running on the pandora. Please also not that not everyone here is a big Linux guru, so if there one or 2 distro's who would be rather "userfriendly" to install that would be very nice...

Just my 2cents...

edit: made a thread on ITT about this

 

[mali]

[offtopic]Regarding 'community-will' I've learned in the past weeks, that there hasn't really build up a broad cummunity yet. That is understandable, because it is all about theory and nothing real to deal with, yet. There are the ones coming from the gp2x, some joined later in the discussion process of Pandora, and there is a fair amount of newbies joined recently. Thinking about the repetitive discussions about gamers vs. UMPC-ers for example shows, that there isn't a common identity build up, yet, where people just accept different origin. Things will settle, when Pandora is delivered, and then there will form a new community.
We should take care of the community not being split into subcultures and that everything is in one place with a headline in capital letters PANDORA-COMMUNITY.

I really DON'T think it would be a good idea to outsource different projects. Lets keep them here.[/offtopic]

My last sentence also applies to a Maemo-project, so that's the slightly ontopic part of this post. :wink:

 

[Polossatik]

[offtopic]
I really DON'T think it would be a good idea to outsource different projects. Lets keep them here.[/offtopic]

My last sentence also applies to a Maemo-project, so that's the slightly ontopic part of this post. :wink:

Not sure if I get that last comment correctly about "outsourcing", if there is a OS/distro that might be/is suitable , there is already a infrastructure in place to support that OS/distro then is joining that other community for that part of the "pandora experience" not "outsourcing" , I think it would be rather silly to fork it off, let alone the overhead of maintaining wiki's, servers, docs, etc for something that's basically the same...

by the way , feel free to let me know if you think I did miss something..

And just to make myself clear, I'm pretty aware that Maemo will not be attractive for all Pandora users and it's not meant to have this in some way proposed as the "base OS" or so , but I think/hope a lot of people will find it attractive to use it on the Pandora.

And seen we have now about 1 - 2 months before actually getting the hardware I think it might be more beneficial to start thinking/planning about this instead of staring at the mailbox

edit: pretty interested to know who's behind the Ångström port that is seams to be positioned as the "base" OS (aldo I can't find any hard references about it)

 

[mali]

[offtopic]
I really DON'T think it would be a good idea to outsource different projects. Lets keep them here.[/offtopic]

My last sentence also applies to a Maemo-project, so that's the slightly ontopic part of this post. :wink:

Not sure if I get that last comment correctly about "outsourcing", if there is a OS/distro that might be/is suitable , there is already a infrastructure in place to support that OS/distro then is joining that other community for that part of the "pandora experience" not "outsourcing" , I think it would be rather silly to fork it off, let alone the overhead of maintaining wiki's, servers, docs, etc for something that's basically the same...

by the way , feel free to let me know if you think I did miss something..

You didn't miss anything in my post I just meant it in general. I shouldn't have posted that here. I tend to go a step further, instead of staying in the present. I just thought about, how things might evolve and had the association, that if a maemo-project is started and instead of being developed right here, maybe in a sub-forum, its
developer base would be on the maemo side outside direct connection to the Pandora-community it would be like a separation and could harm the common identity of the users. It is like, you have to know where your homebase is and where the loyalty belongs. The last days reading some agressive posts towards newbies gave me a headache. It is quite easy to banish someone with that kind of behaviour.

Now on topic, I would love to have the full maemo experience on my Pandora. The longer I've used it, the more I found out, how well polished it is, and it is really meant to be a least-hassle-as-possible everyday OS. I am no linux expert today, but im sure I will become a geek sooner than later

 

[Capn_Fish]

I personally (I have an N810) think Maemo would be a HORRIBLE OS for the Pandora (or anything) to run. It's VERY limited (you must use Hildon stuff, no onboard dev tools, very little you can change about the UI, etc.). Straight-up Debian is the best thing that ever happened to the NIT platform.

I'd say that Debian would be the best choice for the Pandora. It already has a fully-functional ARM port, has a TON of packages available, and has no such limitations.

In response to the post a page or two back about Debian not being user-friendly: It's as user-friendly as you make it. If the Pandora's standard OS is Debian, it will already be tweaked to work well and easily. Those who don't like the setup could change it with little fuss.

/rant

In short: Why put a limited, constricting OS on a platform that's being touted as REMOVING constrictions from the user?

 

[cobaltage]

In short: Why put a limited, constricting OS on a platform that's being touted as REMOVING constrictions from the user?

Right on.

 

[mali]

I personally (I have an N810) think Maemo would be a HORRIBLE OS for the Pandora (or anything) to run. It's VERY limited (you must use Hildon stuff, no onboard dev tools, very little you can change about the UI, etc.). Straight-up Debian is the best thing that ever happened to the NIT platform.

I'd say that Debian would be the best choice for the Pandora. It already has a fully-functional ARM port, has a TON of packages available, and has no such limitations.

In response to the post a page or two back about Debian not being user-friendly: It's as user-friendly as you make it. If the Pandora's standard OS is Debian, it will already be tweaked to work well and easily. Those who don't like the setup could change it with little fuss.

/rant

In short: Why put a limited, constricting OS on a platform that's being touted as REMOVING constrictions from the user?

Like I said, I'm no educated linux user, so for me the point is, everything works out of the box. There is flash support, skype, media player, tons of apps. Reading all the threads like Flash?--well not yet, Skype?--no, maybe.
For me it would be a good start to have maemo for everyday use. I started going further already on my n800, I read tutorials, made it dualboot hildon and KDE, so I'm willing to learn, as things evolve and I'm sure that I will experiment with every OS that is available. But I would like to have maemo as starting point, because I have used it before and know what to expect. I'm just a windows guy, trying to learn to swim in the linux world. :wink:

 

[Polossatik]

Like I said, I'm no educated linux user, so for me the point is, everything works out of the box. There is flash support, skype, media player, tons of apps. Reading all the threads like Flash?--well not yet, Skype?--no, maybe.
For me it would be a good start to have maemo for everyday use.

Right on.


(sorry - really could not resist this...)

 

[Polossatik]

... I just thought about, how things might evolve and had the association, that if a maemo-project is started and instead of being developed right here, maybe in a sub-forum, its developer base would be on the maemo side outside direct connection to the Pandora-community it would be like a separation and could harm the common identity of the users. It is like, you have to know where your homebase is and where the loyalty belongs. ..

Cheers, I see what you mean, on the other side you will have IMHO a part that comes from pure "gamer" side and just need an bare emulator launcher...., a part that will find any OS that has a gui just plain silly.... , some dudes who just like that things work without remembering 31 man pages and with a nice fussy GUI around....., (insert any preferences here)...

I think from the Software part there will be already a big difference in what is expected and not sure if that will all fit in the same "Pandora-community" feeling.

IMHO have a "polished" distro like maemo might be even beneficial for the "real" geeks who dream in Bash - instead of 55 times a post that asks "how do I see youtube on my pandora" and then a nice "google is your friend" answer it might be good to have something that simply runs most stuff you would expect as a N00b...

This might be of course not "dogmatic" enough for some, but I'm rather "pragmatic", so I feel fine

edit: And yeah, I really have nothing against debian in case some people might think so..

 

[mali]

... I just thought about, how things might evolve and had the association, that if a maemo-project is started and instead of being developed right here, maybe in a sub-forum, its developer base would be on the maemo side outside direct connection to the Pandora-community it would be like a separation and could harm the common identity of the users. It is like, you have to know where your homebase is and where the loyalty belongs. ..

Cheers, I see what you mean, on the other side you will have IMHO a part that comes from pure "gamer" side and just need an bare emulator launcher...., a part that will find any OS that has a gui just plain silly.... , some dudes who just like that things work without remembering 31 man pages and with a nice fussy GUI around....., (insert any preferences here)...

I think from the Software part there will be already a big difference in what is expected and not sure if that will all fit in the same "Pandora-community" feeling.

IMHO have a "polished" distro like maemo might be even beneficial for the "real" geeks who dream in Bash - instead of 55 times a post that asks "how do I see youtube on my pandora" and then a nice "google is your friend" answer it might be good to have something that simply runs most stuff you would expect as a N00b...

This might be of course not "dogmatic" enough for some, but I'm rather "pragmatic", so I feel fine

edit: And yeah, I really have nothing against debian in case some people might think so..

That perfectly describes it, nothing to add from my side

Non the less I hope it is possible to reconcile all those different interests. A versatile device for a versatile community.

 

[TaG]

Regarding 'community-will' I've learned in the past weeks, that there hasn't really build up a broad cummunity yet.

There was a broad community over at gp32x.de/board.

Thinking about the repetitive discussions about gamers vs. UMPC-ers for example shows, that there isn't a common identity build up, yet, where people just accept different origin. Things will settle, when Pandora is delivered, and then there will form a new community.

These discussions are bound to be repetitive. The device came to life through a gaming-orientated community. Then people saw the 'UMPC' possibilities. Things may settle, but they may not as there will still be plenty to disagree about.

We should take care of the community not being split into subcultures and that everything is in one place with a headline in capital letters PANDORA-COMMUNITY.

So if you don't want a split and keep everything in one place, presumably you mean at gp32x.de/board?

I really DON'T think it would be a good idea to outsource different projects. Lets keep them here.

Why here? Why not at the original forum, with an established community? These forums were temporary...

...it would be like a separation and could harm the common identity of the users. It is like, you have to know where your homebase is and where the loyalty belongs. The last days reading some agressive posts towards newbies gave me a headache.

Now, where was the 'homebase' where the loyalty belongs?

On topic: The beauty of Pandora is that it is many things to many people (even those that want Maemo. :wink: ).

What exactly is it that Maemo will give users that people are assuming the standard OS won't? From what I've read people really want the stuff that is closed source. As we haven't seen the standard OS, it might have the advantages that people want.
Similar to the Ubuntu discussion, once you tinker too much with a 'distro' it is no longer that 'distro', it is not Ubuntu/Maemo anymore. Both may have uses for some, both may be useful for publicity.

 

[cobaltage]

I have to admit that part of the reason I'm interested in seeing Maemo is that I was left high and dry by Nokia with the 770's loss of support. I'm not upset about it, but I feel like I missed out by not waiting for the N800 -- specifically in relation to 3rd party software. Maybe it won't be a big deal when the Pandora is actually in my hands. I do want Flash support, though, so I can watch Hulu videos.

 

[ChairmanNow]

IMHO have a "polished" distro like maemo might be even beneficial for the "real" geeks who dream in Bash - instead of 55 times a post that asks "how do I see youtube on my pandora" and then a nice "google is your friend" answer it might be good to have something that simply runs most stuff you would expect as a N00b...

This might be of course not "dogmatic" enough for some, but I'm rather "pragmatic", so I feel fine

That describes me to a T. I'd love to have a Bash shell for when I need it, but I'd also like to have a "it just works" experience at the same time. I think that Maemo would provide both.

Moreover, and I'm surprised no one has talked about this - something that makes the device more accessible and polished is going to help sell a lot of units, and ensure the survival of the platform.

I think that people forget that there's different levels of "geeks" and tinkerers. Some folks will want to tweak a given distro every day. Some folks will want to just use the device to the fullest without so much fuss.

 

[mali]

Regarding 'community-will' I've learned in the past weeks, that there hasn't really build up a broad cummunity yet.

There was a broad community over at gp32x.de/board.

Thinking about the repetitive discussions about gamers vs. UMPC-ers for example shows, that there isn't a common identity build up, yet, where people just accept different origin. Things will settle, when Pandora is delivered, and then there will form a new community.

These discussions are bound to be repetitive. The device came to life through a gaming-orientated community. Then people saw the 'UMPC' possibilities. Things may settle, but they may not as there will still be plenty to disagree about.

We should take care of the community not being split into subcultures and that everything is in one place with a headline in capital letters PANDORA-COMMUNITY.

So if you don't want a split and keep everything in one place, presumably you mean at gp32x.de/board?

I really DON'T think it would be a good idea to outsource different projects. Lets keep them here.

Why here? Why not at the original forum, with an established community? These forums were temporary...

...it would be like a separation and could harm the common identity of the users. It is like, you have to know where your homebase is and where the loyalty belongs. The last days reading some agressive posts towards newbies gave me a headache.

Now, where was the 'homebase' where the loyalty belongs?

On topic: The beauty of Pandora is that it is many things to many people (even those that want Maemo. :wink: ).

What exactly is it that Maemo will give users that people are assuming the standard OS won't? From what I've read people really want the stuff that is closed source. As we haven't seen the standard OS, it might have the advantages that people want.
Similar to the Ubuntu discussion, once you tinker too much with a 'distro' it is no longer that 'distro', it is not Ubuntu/Maemo anymore. Both may have uses for some, both may be useful for publicity.

You completely missed me there :wink:
I don't regard gp32x and this 'emergency-forum' as different places. I mean Pandora-community as a whole. And I don't add to the split, because I post on both boards and try to have a civilised way of communication. The sooner there is a decision about how to combine the two forums the better. I tried to initiate a discussion on how to do this merge, but the thread was instantly buried in off topic. It seems that the mods are confident, that the forums will be merged, but it would be nice to know the insights IF there ARE insights. The talk about signal to noise ratio is annoying and doesn't add to a solution.

When I say, I want a maemo project here, I mean here as opposite to the maemo-community, not as opposite to gp32x(respectively the Pandora part of gp32x)

/offtopic

Have you used maemo? It is made for a handheld-device similar to the Pandora. To be accurate very similar to the Pandora.
It has been there for years and it has been improved over years, it contains software collected over years, it has sorted out bugs over years. It is no gigantomanic desktop distro. I don't know what to add. Let's wait and see. I'm sure the sys Pandora comes with will be a good base, and will be developed further. It don't give a damn, which OS I will use in the end (for everyday-use that is) as long as it does what I want when I want and I don't have to switch on my Notebook because I get annoyed.

 

[TaG]

You completely missed me there :wink:
I don't regard gp32x and this 'emergency-forum' as different places. I mean Pandora-community as a whole. And I don't add to the split, because I post on both boards and try to have a civilised way of communication. The sooner there is a decision about how to combine the two forums the better. I tried to initiate a discussion on how to do this merge, but the thread was instantly buried in off topic. It seems that the mods are confident, that the forums will be merged, but it would be nice to know the insights IF there ARE insights. The talk about signal to noise ratio is annoying and doesn't add to a solution.

When I say, I want a maemo project here, I mean here as opposite to the maemo-community, not as opposite to gp32x(respectively the Pandora part of gp32x)

Sounds like we are in agreement on most of this.

Have you used maemo? It is made for a handheld-device similar to the Pandora. To be accurate very similar to the Pandora.
It has been there for years and it has been improved over years, it contains software collected over years, it has sorted out bugs over years. It is no gigantomanic desktop distro. I don't know what to add. Let's wait and see. I'm sure the sys Pandora comes with will be a good base, and will be developed further. It don't give a damn, which OS I will use in the end (for everyday-use that is) as long as it does what I want when I want and I don't have to switch on my Notebook because I get annoyed.

No I haven't 'used' maemo - I've had a quick go many moons ago. That was really why I was asking the question: What is it that people want from maemo on Pandora? I'm not criticising people wanting it, nor people that want Ubuntu, Gentoo, Arch etc. If people want the goodies that are closed source we probably can't have them anyway. If it is the UI it might be better to port that element only. When people want the whole thing but half of it has to be canned / rewritten / whatever then you end up with a different beast based on the original.

 

[lardman]

IIRC there was a Maemo distro target in the OE metadata for a while after the 770 was released. I didn't try it, but presumably it's possible then. As more of Maemo is now open source it ought to be easier now (he says).

When people want the whole thing but half of it has to be canned / rewritten / whatever then you end up with a different beast based on the original.

Well if the same hildon libraries are used on both devices the apps should run, and that's the thing that counts for most people, not exactly which wifi/bt driver is being used or how the battery level is reported (via hal now anyway iirc) or whether pcm data is sent to the audio hardware codec by the dsp or by the arm (though the latter parts are what interest me).

 

[mali]

I don't think that one can specify in detail what exactly to want from maemo.
I want the feel of it. I don't want to have to fiddle around with my everyday-use OS. Turn on, answer business-mails, turn off. Turn on watch youtube, turn off. Thats it. I don't want to have to gain root access to do basic everyday-work.
I'm sure, that I will have a dualboot and will build my own customized OS over time, as I learn more about linux. But I want to have a full-fledged work OS that makes no hassle, when I need it.