Why Not Just *run* Debian?

[Megatog615]

With all the talk about how the Pandora could theoretically install Debian ARM packages, I have a question. Why not just install Debian on the Pandora?

 

[ViperKnight]

With all the talk about how the Pandora could theoretically install Debian ARM packages, I have a question. Why not just install Debian on the Pandora?

umm....keyword: Debian ARM Packages

Besides, running an entire distro (which is aimed at x86/x86-64 mind you) will probably hog a tonne of resources. Then running programs on top of that will drag it down even more.

However, running a specialised stripped back distro would probably be more logical.
Besides, almost everything in Debian is designed for x86 and would be useless to the Pandora anyway.

 

[sparr]

Besides, running an entire distro (which is aimed at x86/x86-64 mind you) will probably hog a tonne of resources. Then running programs on top of that will drag it down even more.

However, running a specialised stripped back distro would probably be more logical.
Besides, almost everything in Debian is designed for x86 and would be useless to the Pandora anyway.

I think the only thing you got right was "the" and "an". Maybe "is", but that depends on what the definition of "is" is. The rest of it is wrong.

A) You don't "run" a distro. You run individual programs. A distro is a collection of programs, usually with some way to manage said collection of programs. Straight debian is virtually nothing but bare bones linux plus apt/dpkg, anything you add beyond that is customization. Almost anything you could do with a custom distro you could do with debian. And you will hog no more resources than with a stripped down distro, except for a small bit of storage for the package management system.

B) Debian is not aimed at x86. Debian is *explicitly* multiplatform, for many reasons. Over 85% of all available packages on an x86 debian desktop computer are available in the armel port, or the straight arm build. Ditto for hppa, m68k, mips, sparc, and powerpc, with percentages closer to 95.

 

[Squidge]

Why not just install Debian on the Pandora?

It would take an absolute age to start up, and then run like a sloth whilst running due to the amount of hogged resources.

We want it to start up as fast as possible, and leave as much memory as possible available.

Besides, I've not seen Debian for ARM, only Debian ARM packages.

 

[scarath]

With all the talk about how the Pandora could theoretically install Debian ARM packages, I have a question. Why not just install Debian on the Pandora?

good question, i wonder what the official stance is? still if u really wanted Deb on the machine i suppose there might be a work around to get some form of it on by tinkering?
Shame it would be slow

 

[hal9000]

I think the only thing you got right was "the" and "an". Maybe "is", but that depends on what the definition of "is" is. The rest of it is wrong.

Please don't be so unfriendly.

A) You don't "run" a distro. You run individual programs. A distro is a collection of programs, usually with some way to manage said collection of programs. Straight debian is virtually nothing but bare bones linux plus apt/dpkg, anything you add beyond that is customization. Almost anything you could do with a custom distro you could do with debian. And you will hog no more resources than with a stripped down distro, except for a small bit of storage for the package management system.

This is wrong. A linux distribution is what you said plus an installation program plus many startup and configuration scripts. As is, Debian (like most linux distro) does not give you the opportunity to install a system which would be light and fast enough for Pandora.

To achieve this, not installing what you don't need is not enough. You would need to make a custom kernel configuration, to deeply modify startup scripts, and so on...

Pandora will use a stripped-down version of Debian. The question is whether it will be based on an already existing stripped down version of Debian (which I hope), or whether it will be made from scratch specifically for the Pandora (which seems to be a risky choice).

 

[DJWillis]

Pandora will use a stripped-down version of Debian. The question is whether it will be based on an already existing stripped down version of Debian (which I hope), or whether it will be made from scratch specifically for the Pandora (which seems to be a risky choice).

Can I ask what qualifies you to make such a statement?

There seems to be some good comments and some bull in equal measure in this thread. I am fighting the urge to launch in with comments .

 

[hal9000]

Can I ask what qualifies you to make such a statement?

There seems to be some good comments and some bull in equal measure in this thread. I am fighting the urge to launch in with comments

Well, nothing. It is just common sense, or at least I believed so. I could have added "probably", but I don't see any "bull" there.

I think it is official that it will support Debian-ARM packages, so it makes sense to believe that it will be somehow based on Debian. However, like any other handheld Linux , it will be customized to be faster on startup, lighter and to be adapted to the Pandora hardware.

I agree my post was not extremely usefull, but I think the post of Spar gave a very biased definition of Linux distributions. As many people here use Linux without really knowing what it is, I wanted to avoid misunderstandings.

 

[DJWillis]

This may not read well as I can’t be bothered to proof read it and I have to be in a meeting in a min. .

Well, nothing. It is just common sense, or at least I believed so. I could have added "probably", but I don't see any "bull" there.

Ok, interesting use of the word 'will' that’s all.

There seems to be a lot of statements made like that of late with nothing to back them up, it’s gets a little tiring and seems to give the impression of knowledge over speculation.

I think it is official that it will support Debian-ARM packages, so it makes sense to believe that it will be somehow based on Debian. However, like any other handheld Linux , it will be customized to be faster on startup, lighter and to be adapted to the Pandora hardware.

Just about any 'from scratch' ARM classic ABI Linux can run ARM DEB's either by extraction or by installing a suitable package manager. You only need meet dependencies and the like. Just like we can do on the GP2X.

It's a poor assumption to assume Pandora will be true stock Debian based or support Debian ARM packages for that matter considering the differences with the classic and EABI ARM Linux interfaces. “Potential .deb package support for the appropriate ABI” may be a better way to think of it.

I would not put money on picking up any classic ARM Debian packages and just running them, ARMEL ones, well maybe . Oh, and before anybody comments, I am well aware of the ABI compatibility layer for classic ARM ABI on ARMEL, it’s just not that useful in the real world.

Despite its wide use in embedded devices ARM EABI (ARMEL) is still not an official Debian architecture and there is still a lot of talk about running down the classic ABI (ARM) architecture in Debian without having a firm agreement for ARMEL to supersede it. The ARM ABI’s (both of them) in the Debian world are hardly stable and settled at the moment however there is a strong move of late to get ARMEL official.

Most embedded ARM devices tend to be going ARMEL these days so that is the logical move and ARMEL is a massive improvement over the classic Linux ARM ABI. One of the biggest hurdles is hacks that people made when supporting ARM in big packages, hardcoding etc. etc.

I agree my post was not extremely usefull, but I think the post of Spar gave a very biased definition of Linux distributions. As many people here use Linux without really knowing what it is, I wanted to avoid misunderstandings.

Biased it may have been but I don't see anything specifically incorrect with it to be honest. In the context of embedded Debian

Debian tends to be closer to the ‘Linux from scratch and a package manger’ point then a full distribution on embedded platforms anyway as so many things like Kernel config, init scripts etc. are device specific.

Things like Open Embedded, Buildroot tend to fill gaps in this space and most devices use a mix of all the above .

Anyway, its all irrelevant until more stuff comes to light B).

 

[teggun]

Because it's not a laptop its for playing games!!

 

[DJWillis]

Because it's not a laptop its for playing games!!

And that nullifies any of this discussion how?

I'll let you in on a little secret, you want to play games on it . That does not mean everybody does.

 

[magicman5421]

^ hear here.
I'm looking into this not only for the games, but for the potential pda and mobile web browser aspects as well. I have a laptop, but it is bulky and pandora would just be easier on the whole to carry around.

 

[Mr B]

Magicman5421 not to sure what uses your thinking of, but with a for a laptop, really tiny screen, your going to be rather hard pressed to replace your laptop with it, for most uses. The Asus EeePC has had numerous complaints about the screen being to small, so they are updating it, and i think it has a 7" 800x480 screen. I don't know, but i think i would be hard pressed to do anything more then casual web surfing, forget reading news, i mean like Youtube for the amusement, joox for movies, and so on. A pocket size laptop would be killer, but i don't see it happening until we get holographic screens, or micro projectors.

 

[Chip]

Magicman5421 not to sure what uses your thinking of, but with a for a laptop, really tiny screen, your going to be rather hard pressed to replace your laptop with it, for most uses. The Asus EeePC has had numerous complaints about the screen being to small, so they are updating it, and i think it has a 7" 800x480 screen. I don't know, but i think i would be hard pressed to do anything more then casual web surfing, forget reading news, i mean like Youtube for the amusement, joox for movies, and so on. A pocket size laptop would be killer, but i don't see it happening until we get holographic screens, or micro projectors.

It all comes down to personal preference. I spend up to an hour per day reading news, forums, and blogs on my Verizon XV6700 (HTC Apache), and it only has a 2.8" 320x240 LCD. Pandora would be quite a step up for me in screen real estate and resolution, as well as running Firefox instead of IE Mobile. Certainly not everybody wants to do all their web browsing on such a tiny screen, but for me it is convenient and I'm very used to it.

I have had my eye on the eeePC since it was announced and have come close to ordering it a couple times. In the end I didn't because while it may be considerably smaller than a traditional laptop, it is still far from pocketable. If I can't stick it in my pocket and carry it everywhere, it is no more convenient than my 15" laptop.

However, Pandora looks like it will fit in my pockets just fine

 

[monkeyo2]

As a Nokia N800 user, I can tell you that 800x480 is perfectly acceptable for browsing most of the websites I frequently use (e.g. BBC News, Slashdot, The Inquirer, Facebook, GP32X etc.). I think in many ways the Pandora team were lucky they couldn't get 640x480 screens, as many websites are designed to just fit an 800 pixel wiide display. Anything less would requirer much more sideways scrolling.

(posted from an N800)

Edit: Gmail, Google Apps, Google Maps, Flickr, and music from MySpace also work very well with the N800's Firefox & Flash 9. Videos from Youtube are just about watchable with the UKTUBE application.

 

[Perky_Goth]

Because it's not a laptop its for playing games!!

So what? That is not a technical reason. DJWillis, however, had a good technical reason.

 

[javaJake]

^ hear here.

*Ahem* if you are going to use my phrase, you're gonna say it properly, got it?

 

[_VWV_]

A small nation about the resources. It looks like a debian distro runs fine on the nokia 770 which has only 64M of RAM. http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=13925
P&|a has 128M + a much more powerful CPU and better video capabilities. So.. I still don't get why we can't run debian on P&|a? I think it's quite possible. Yes, there are some problems like battery status, but still debian is an option IMHO, isn't it?

 

[Squidge]

What parts of Debian are you really interested in?

 

[_VWV_]

Synaptic - I'm a noob.