Why does this thing cost more than a new PS3? (serious Q)

[Alpha17x]

This is a serious question, I actually would honestly like to know. Why the 'Pandora' at least at this point in time, costs more than a brand new basic PlayStation 3 console system.

Granted yes, it's portable, but that really isn't enough of a reason.

Is it to recoup development cost? Are the components that make it up that pricey?

What's the rhyme and reason to that high price.


Just to clarify, once there's some actual availability that doesn't require sending an e-mail and I can just punch my credit card info into an online store or something, I'm going to pick it up in a heart-beat.

But the listed price for it made me do a double take.

 

[banjeed]

[youtube]W23LKD9Z1hw[/youtube]

Disclaimer: If you hate my stolen-hilarious humor, let me know and I'll stop posting. Until then, all questions that have been and could be answered through a few quick google searches, are subject to hilarity. NARF!!!

 

[Alpha17x]

Google Searches? I think not.

Thus far Google has shown me that more people than myself, are wondering why the price is as high as it is.

I actually (amazingly enough) did try that before I came here to ask. You see I am somewhat interested in developing software for it. As are about 34 or 36 (I might be forgetting two people) programmers and software designers I've had the privilege of working with. But if there's some upstart cost-recuperation happening, then a fair sum of the group are probably going to wait and see it go down before they dive in and start developing video games for a device targeted at a niche market.

Family guy is awesome BTW.

 

[waffles]

Well for starters im not sure where you live, but a ps3 costs 400$ here, at least the 80gb version.

 

[fischju]

The PS3 was $600 when it launched 3 years ago, and Sony still loses money on every unit that is sold. They make up for it with accessories and games, but Sony Computer Entertainment is still losing money hand over fist. Even other portable devices have plugins and services that are sold seperately that bring in a lot of revenue. Open Pandora, selling just the hardware and a couple of accessories of an open device can't afford to do this.

Compared to the $600-800 price of competing x86 handhelds of rougly the same size (the UMID, Viliv X70, ect) and even locked down devices based on OMAP3 like the Archos 5 ($250-400) I would say the Pandora is very worth the price.

 

[axenzoku]

Yeah all the software is free (open source)... So once you buy it, the relationship is over...

But there were some things I was contemplating...
Lets say you plug-in one of those wireless air cards (not wifi)... And install Skype or something comparable... Essentially you just turned it into a cell phone...
Now with the air card thing; you can get alerts when you get new emails, or instant messages...
It has blue tooth too, so I'm guessing one of those blue tooth wireless hands-free devices should work (If it can be made to be supported on the distro and hardware - which is likely since it would just be a driver). It can be an MP3 player, a portable video player (as well as youtube and others), pretty much all the services available on the web like maps among other things... If you have a digital camcorder of some sort, you can record a video, upload it to your pandora and then to the internet from right where you're standing. Not to mention the keyboard, let's say you saw something you wanna put in your blog, just flip it open and start typing.
So...
MP3 Player, Portable Video Player, On-the-go Email, Skype Phone (from anywhere using an air card), Instant Messaging, Chat, Maps & Driving Directions, Blogging, Personals Sites and Many other offline applications... Last but not least, Games. Tons of emulators (with all the games they encompass), Any open source games, any web-based games, any java games, flash games... Development for -OPEN- Pandora will be crazy too...

iPhone did something right by opening up and letting anybody develop and toss their apps on the site so they can earn commission on each sale, but, they had to put their apps on the iphone site in order to sell it... Open Pandora is open; you can just make something, put it up for download and that's that. I can see good things in store for Pandora...

Also I believe Java will be an awesome platform to develop games and apps for Pandora (especially with JavaFX which recently just came out...). "JavaFX is fully integrated with the Java Runtime" so if Pandora supports Java, it supports JavaFX, and I think it might be the easiest method of development in terms of platform independence... Personally I plan to use Java/FX because aside from the Pandora version, you can also embed your java application on a website for use on a regular PC, or many other devices out there for many operating systems...

What all that boils down to - I say the price is right, especially for launch. It's well worth it for all the usefulness and possibilities you'll get from it. Not to mention how fun development will be when you get your hands on one... Once I learned about all the possibilities of Open Pandora... I tried to go buy some other hand-held game system but I just couldn't bring myself to be entertained by it... I couldn't even buy anything else... I mean, I'll always have a PC but when it comes to anything else, it's just not good enough anymore once I saw a Pandora.

 

[hkipp]

I'd reason like this:

Only 4000 are produced for the first batch. This includes all cost - including creating moulds, CNC-samples, layout etc. If pandora is going to sell in 100.000 or even 1.000.000 batches I'm pretty sure price is going to drop quickly - so you should order more!

However when I ordered it was only 250€ which is a very good price - you get a good display, controlls, keyboard, TV-Out, two SDHC-Cardslots (even iPod Touch and iPhone don't have this - and are much more expensive). DS is inferior to the pandora, DSi at least has a camera but can't play GBA-games any more...

What the heck - the iPod touch I have is much more expensive than the pandora, the Wii is more expensive - I paid more than 2500 DM for my first Atari 800 Homecomputer back in those days - so why not spend 250€ or even 300€ for something as beautiful and open as the pandora? It will soon also run RiscOS Open (I hope), and the only things it can't run is a) Windows XP, Vista, 7 in decent speed (but who wants that anyway), b) MacOS X and c) the latest stationary game/handy things (PSP, DSi, PS3, Wii). Well, with a proper USB-Stick it might also handle Android and other things gracefully...

But I shouldn't start dreaming about Pandora II with GSM, Camera, Compass etc. ;-) First I need to get a Pandora I.

Mr. Wartung

 

[WizardStan]

The comparison to PS3 isn't really fair.
1) It's been out for a significant time now, they've had time to tweak production facilities to improve performance and reduce costs. Given enough time, the Pandora will probably come down eventually too, once the devs have started making their profit.
2) Sony saves by owning their own production facilities and what they do need to buy, they buy in bulk. OP doesn't have either of those options, so they pay more for parts.
3) Sony is taking a hit on each sale, selling the console below cost with the hope to recover their losses in game sales. Again, this isn't an option for OP, since they aren't selling software: for the most part it's all free (the possibility of commercial games exists, but they're not likely to make any money off those sales)
When the PS3 first came out, it was sold for $600, with analysts suggesting that, with what was in it, Sony should have been selling it for $900. Compare what the Pandora gives you for $330 to what the PS3 would give you at $900, not at the current price, and you're getting closer to a fair price comparison (still an apples and oranges thing, though)

A better comparison might be to the Wii, though even that isn't the best.
Nintendo is making a profit on every console sale, unlike Sony and Microsoft, the Wii hasn't really come down in price, and is currently selling a little below cost of the Pandora, $280. The Pandora and Wii seem to have similar capabilities, if we could just find some developers who could take advantage of that power. For an extra $50, you are
1) Getting portability (granted, at the loss of a DVD drive, but you are getting a keyboard of sorts)
2) Gaining instant access to a large software base (which will continue to grow) for free and immediate download
3) Helping a small business, thus stimulating the economy, and we all gotta do our part

 

[Kyosys]

Additionally, smaller hardware costs more money. And the screens are also quite expensive.

 

[MistaGiggles]

And you can also enjoy that fact that it's a small company you are helping, rather than giving your money to a cold and heartless multi-national company who doesn't really give a shit about you are the other thousands of people who buy their product, as long as you buy it from them.

 

[Alpha17x]

Thank you for the answers, maybe now instead of telling people to 'google it' they can possibly be referred to this thread instead and see actual answers.

As for helping a smaller company, I see where you're going, but usually smaller companies or any company really, has a similar view point. I don't think the OP team is going to be sending flowers or muffins and cookies to our office if we order a bunch.

Like I said in my first post though, I plan on ordering one anyway. The rest of the team we've got here, or at least a fair chunk of them will probably wait and watch though.

I suppose on the plus side, those of us who do order (and manage to get) it will be able to use it to entice them.

 

[hedwards]

Thank you for the answers, maybe now instead of telling people to 'google it' they can possibly be referred to this thread instead and see actual answers.

As for helping a smaller company, I see where you're going, but usually smaller companies or any company really, has a similar view point. I don't think the OP team is going to be sending flowers or muffins and cookies to our office if we order a bunch.

Like I said in my first post though, I plan on ordering one anyway. The rest of the team we've got here, or at least a fair chunk of them will probably wait and watch though.

I suppose on the plus side, those of us who do order (and manage to get) it will be able to use it to entice them.

Precisely how many times should we have to go over it? Seriously, this has been answered quite a few times, most of the people griping are also griping about how it's doomed to failure because it wasn't released by Sony.

Additionally, I'm not sure why it should be less expensive than the Sony offerings considering that it outclasses pretty much all other handhelds. If there's one that I'm not aware of with higher specs, let me know. You always pay a significant premium for smallness and portability, that's just the deal you make if you want something that's useful on the go.

 

[Dauric]

First off I want to know where anyone is getting a PS3 for less than $400. I'm paying $400 for my Pandora and that -includes- a case and overnight shipping. Best Buy has brand new 80Gb PS3's retailing at $400 -$0.01

http://www.bestbuy.com/site//olspage.js ... e=category

$330 < $400. Can we at least get our grade-school math correct?

That aside, it is more expensive than the "PSP Go" is planned to be at ("$250 last I saw). However comparing it strictly to any gaming console ignores the versatility of the Pandora as well. Consider that you're getting the capabilities of a UMPC, with word-processing and graphics/Image Manipulation software, full web browser, etc. Most netbooks run in the $250 - $350 range, $800+ if they have touchscreens (which the Pandora has). On top of that you're getting a handheld gaming console ($250) with more processing power than the nearest competition and a control set that is the closest on the market to a full-sized console controller layout, with keyboard (usually another $40 add-on).

So if you're heading down to Best Buy to pick most all the functionality of the Pandora, you're looking at an outlay of $500 to $650 (+$300 or more for the touchscreen), and it still is -larger- than the Pandora, which means a decent carrying case is mandatory not optional, so shell out another $30 and be willing to lug around another three pounds...

Now that I think about it my aging Palm Tungsten was in the $350-$400 range when I got it brand new, and the Pandora will more than replace my Palm when it arrives. (My Palm and my Pip-Boy clock (Fallout 3 preorder swag) may get combined in a horrible atrocity of fanboyism)

Or, for $330, plus shipping, so around $380 for overnight, you get all that in a single pocket-sized package, and it's still $100 cheaper than the conservative estimate of the combination of hardware.

 

[banjeed]

Ok, sorry for the rude welcome. I've got my better head on now. I'd strongly suggest you check out the original forum for the Pandora here http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showforum=61 . It has the true history of this wonderful machine. Why the main page links to this place boggles my mind now that the original is up and running again. More on topic, you can't really compare this to a ps3, but if you choose to from a developer's viewpoint, maybe this isn't the right machine for you. You're comparing cell processors to an omap3. As stated time and again, this is a portable machine for the people. You're not going to be tied down to a specific OS and you don't have to use the supplied media player, but what most people are really here for is emulation. Quite a few of us weren't thrilled with the systems GamePark Holdings attempted time and again to flash in our faces. For instance, I entered the community originally for help with a broken GP2X. Low and behold, Craigix, ED, MWeston, etc. were all concerned enough about what the community REALLY wanted to take it upon themselves to create the device we all wished our GP2Xs were. It's been a long bumpy road, but they've really done a phenomenal job. They've not only created the portable emulation device we all wanted, but they've done the research to make sure this is also the open system developers can create new content for as well. So you just have to ask yourself which community your development would suit.

 

[Exophase]

Pandora costs $330 because that's what it costs to make it, roughly speaking. craigix has said that the Pandora team is making little or not profit from the first batch alone. A very large reason for why the cost might be more than a larger name competitor doing it is volume. There are immense startup costs necessary in making the Pandora, ignoring all the man hours necessary to build it things such as case moulds are very expensive (think over $100,000), not to mention evaluation boards, CNC caes, custom designed analog nubs, etc. If they were anticipating selling millions instead of thousands and had a larger amount of initial capital then they could afford to sell for less.

One way or another, Openpandora can't afford to sell it for even the tiniest but less. When craigix was still determining the hardware he asked if people would be willing to pay for a handheld that cost this much, and the responses were largely positive.

However, $330 is pretty good even compared to larger volume offerings. If you compare it to the PSP Go, it has a higher quality LCD screen, a touchscreen, a keyboard, more computational capabilities, a more modern 3D chip, much more RAM, a second analog nub, two SD card slots.. I think the only area in which PSP Go's hardware is superior is the 16GB of onboard flash instead of 512MB. The improvements add up pretty nicely when you compare it to the $250 Sony is asking for on PSP Go.

 

[axenzoku]

Sorry to be blunt, but the consumer has no heart for the effort, costs, and hardships of the developers... It all comes down to:
"What do I get and how much do I have to pay for it?"
So most of all, from the consumer point of view, the features, specifications, possibilities, entertainment value, and usefulness are really what they're paying for when it comes down to it...
From my point of view, with only those factors in play, the price is justified...
My first impression of the price for the pandora was right -- I didn't think anything of it -- it just fit.

It would be awesome to have some system for commercial application distribution sort of like how iPhone does it... For those developers who want to make a profit on their apps, then OP could also make a profit for simplifying and managing the sales for the app devs...

 

[Dauric]

Sorry to be blunt, but the consumer has no heart for the effort, costs, and hardships of the developers... It all comes down to:
"What do I get and how much do I have to pay for it?"
So most of all, from the consumer point of view, the features, specifications, possibilities, entertainment value, and usefulness are really what they're paying for when it comes down to it...
From my point of view, with only those factors in play, the price is justified...
My first impression of the price for the pandora was right -- I didn't think anything of it -- it just fit.

It would be awesome to have some system for commercial application distribution sort of like how iPhone does it... For those developers who want to make a profit on their apps, then OP could also make a profit for simplifying and managing the sales for the app devs...

There was a great big discussion about iPhone App Stores in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=796&start=0

Grand upshot: corporate app stores are great if you're trying to control the content, but OPLtd. wants nothing to do with content control for a variety of reasons (legality of emulators being one), however an independent store of some sort might pop up if they can protect themselves adequately from legal hassles.

 

[Alpha2]

I think perhaps the OP received a response that was proportional to the bluntness of his question especially with the rather unmistakable inaccuracy about the price comparison. Intent to buy one aside, inaccurately comparing a the price of a portable system by a small passionate team of creators split up around the world to a big corporate console who's price has been, and still is, complained about to this day even after a hundred bucks were knocked off of it's original price was bound to get someone a little ruffled.

...And that's without assuming that maaaaybe, perhaps, by some strange quirk of fate, the question of it's price had never come up before in the, oh let's say, last 2 years of development? I mean usually even if I can't find what I'm looking for by searching when entering a new forum, then I'll at least qualify my question with that particular bit of information just to show I at least tried to avoid pissing off the locals. Sorry to see your first day marred by such a reaction but, occasionally, forums do that. Enjoy your stay.

 

[Alpha17x]

I don't view the price comparison as innacurate. I personally think that extra details like the epic hardships of the developers are just sob stories. Yes they worked hard to develop the device, and my question was answered in the fact that they are a start up who are still starting up. (I found out about this thing about 2 days before I asked my question after I was researching the GP2X Wiz.)

But what it comes down to is price. $330 is a lot to drop on a device of any kind, questioning it's price is justified.
It also is somewhat disheartening that one of the first responses I got here was to 'google it' which was also comical because while growing in notice, compared to most, this device is pretty damn obscure. Pretty damn awesome, but pretty damn obscure. I found out about it because I was looking for used SNES Devkits, which led me to a site that had information on the GP2X Wiz, which in turn mentioned the Pandora. It's quite difficult to group a potential user base, and even a company, if that is even the intent, when users on the official board troll you at the drop of a pin. Perhaps my thought on that matter is blown out of proportion but I digress.

As for the PS3 price I mentioned. I can get a 40gb PS3 for $289.99 at a few of the stores around here. Though perhaps that price is an attempt to clear them out since I don't believe those are in production anymore.

I will extend my thanks, my question was indeed answered (price justification). However I will also implore those who read and frequent this place to try to extend a hand, rather than rabidly slapping at anyone who comes through and trying to chase them away. Though I must state that I plan on going nowhere. This device interests me and I will be keeping an eye on it, it holds much potential.

 

[hedwards]

I don't view the price comparison as innacurate. I personally think that extra details like the epic hardships of the developers are just sob stories. Yes they worked hard to develop the device, and my question was answered in the fact that they are a start up who are still starting up. (I found out about this thing about 2 days before I asked my question after I was researching the GP2X Wiz.)

...

I will extend my thanks, my question was indeed answered (price justification). However I will also implore those who read and frequent this place to try to extend a hand, rather than rabidly slapping at anyone who comes through and trying to chase them away. Though I must state that I plan on going nowhere. This device interests me and I will be keeping an eye on it, it holds much potential.

The first paragraph answers the last. This isn't a device that's meant for the mainstream. Those that obsess about the fact that it's not from Sony or Nintendo. Those that wonder why the can't run new games on it or Windows.

It's not that it wouldn't be nice to see it popular, it's just that anybody who sees this as a commodity item is probably not looking for a device like this in the first place. Most of the features are tailored to a much smaller market that values the freedom that can only come from independent developers.

It might come off as a sob story to you, but for those of us that really want, and or need, an open platform we really need for the developers to at least make a minimal profit, if not enough to justify the effort. Even those of us that haven't done much if any work related have invested a lot of energy and emotion in this project and commoditizing it comes off as kind of insensitive.