Why All The Mysteries And No Clear Updates?

[viridior]

reality check

a company called Nintendo are STILL behind on production of a device called the Wii (in its second year now)

the worlds largest and richest software company messed up their release of a console called X-box, with a huge percentage overheating, catching fire or failing with the red ring of death (from new)

an electronics manufacturer called Sony completely misjudged the market and are selling a device called Playstation 3 at a fraction of its projected rate of sales, in fact they fired the head of development over it

a company called Palm computing spent years attempting to switch over to a Linux based OS and failed

another company known as GPH have consistently failed to provide a device with the specifications desired by its fans, and have just delayed the launch of the Wizz by another two months

an open source, cutting edge device, built by an enthusiastic community and a few "guru`s" is a few weeks behind schedule

spot the odd one out...................

Thanks for putting things in context. It doesn't mean that people that have spent money aren't entitled to knowing what is going on. But this literally is on the edge of what is technologically available. Patience and accountability go hand-in-hand.

 

[hobbyman II]

well, yes.

people are entitled to know what's going on, but afaik they where told as much as they could be told, if you recall Craig said he would have liked to post a rant about the bank foul-up but was advised not too, so if he can`t go into details about the bank, and everything else is more or less on schedule (as we where told) then what else can he post?

my guess is the Pandora is pretty close now, and Craigs stalling so he can spring it on us, that would fit his "mo", he likes to surprise or shock people, I wouldn`t put it past him to send out the pre-orders without any comment and then lurk on the forum hitting f5, waiting for the first "OMG" posts.....

oh! @gibberish...... the Pandora should have been March before we got derailed with the swap to the current cpu/gfx, remember that swapping to a totally different device with more speed and GFX potential was BOUND to cause delays, most firms would have tried to optimise their profits by releasing the original version, then announcing the "improved" version a year later, at least we get the best machine from the get go

 

[skeezix]

hobbyman -- you win todays internets

jeff

To everyone else, see this: http://www.codejedi.com/blogmedia/silly/explanation.jpg

 

[CSXM]

people are entitled to know what's going on, but afaik they where told as much as they could be told, if you recall Craig said he would have liked to post a rant about the bank foul-up but was advised not too, so if he can`t go into details about the bank, and everything else is more or less on schedule (as we where told) then what else can he post?from the get go

We still don't know the real schedule, do we? Wise me up if you do. Also I don't get this bank thing. First of all, I don't want to know wtf is going on with the banks. I want to know do they even have an estimate about the first 600 real shipping date (600 based on the lcd supply) or not? Unfortunately the bank stuff affects me too (I just got my re-order e-mail yesterday) in the money matter. I just got my re-order e-mail yesterday and have to deal with it.

 

[sterling976]

The points that I mentioned didn’t get a clear answer from the devs. Many of the “Pandora fans” have made assumptions, but I didn’t see any clear answers on the forums. For example the PCBs, there was no official statement if they were finals.

Um.. have you been following the blog? Look at the 'PCB See' update.

openpandora.org ... check
Blog post ... check
From craigix ... check
"final version" ... check

It doesn't get much more official than an official post in the official blog on the official web site. Anyway, +1 to the idea of a 'things left to do' checklist, even though I'm not dissatisfied with the level of communication I've seen so far; it's been enough that I'm comfortable I'm not being taken for a ride.

@hobbymanII: All of your examples were public companies (well, maybe not GPH.. I don't know much about them) which funded all of their R&D (and production costs!) with either their own funds or those of investors. Each of those devices was finalized and produced (ok, ok.. not the Linux Palm, but still...) by the time the first customer paid for one -- customers' money was never in limbo for extended periods of time while the company finished up design and development. In the Pandora's case, a lot of people have already shelled out cash for something they haven't even seen yet, and so the level of personal investment (both financial and emotional) for a lot of people is understandably higher. That said, I'd like to think anyone who preordered knew the risks when they clicked 'submit,' and I think the devs are doing a good job pulling it all together. I don't disagree with your point, but let's compare apples to apples.

At the end of the day, there's not a lot we, as a community, can do to help push things along besides work on various emulators and projects, learn what we can about ARM and embedded linux, and wait.

Speaking of... I'm going to go tinker around with Angstrom for a while.

 

[WizardStan]

Thanks for putting things in context. It doesn't mean that people that have spent money aren't entitled to knowing what is going on. But this literally is on the edge of what is technologically available. Patience and accountability go hand-in-hand.

The heck we are. The money you spent entitles you to eventually receive a Pandora. No where anywhere in the bill of sale does it say "and ongoing information about the progress of said device and all setbacks that it may receive". We are not entitled to this information. It is by definition a gift that we get information, and it's more than Microsoft, Nintendo, Sony, and even GPH have given to the community.

 

[Chip]

I guess I have to be more careful with what I say now. Some people seem to read way to much into some things while completely ignoring others.

As much as there is a schedule, we're on it.
There is no 100% solid ship date for the first Pandoras. If there were, we'd tell you.

Everything that needs finishing up before full production begins is being worked on. Every unforeseen problem that pops up is being handled as it comes. We are making definite progress, and (with the exception of the bank issue) things look to be on the same general timeframe that we've expected. I don't want to say "We'll have a finished Pandora next week" because If I do, and we don't, then heads will explode. I don't want to say "We'll have a finished Pandora sometime next month" because that would start a whole other round of questions, complaints, and speculation.

Just sit tight. I should have something for you soon.

 

[WizardStan]

customers' money was never in limbo for extended periods of time while the company finished up design and development.

Except for all those people that pre-ordered Xboxes which were delayed. And it's not just hardware that gets preordered and delayed, but software as well. And not just computer related, but TVs and furniture. My parents preordered a bed made of that miracle foam stuff which was delayed. And again, we've seen more progress updates on the Pandora than they did on that bed. So why the hate?

 

[chiark]

Please take this as constructive, not a criticism.

There is no 100% solid ship date for the first Pandoras. If there were, we'd tell you.

And again, expectations are the problem here.

Expectations were set that Pandoras should be in many, many people's hands towards the end of November. Hell, some people were confidently stating that the early ones in the queue would get theirs before October was up!

An official update in the official update thread sharing the current plan would really be appreciated. If that isn't possible, perhaps an explanation of what's on the plan (particularly the critical path) and anticipated dates would be really helpful?

I realise that is asking to share a lot, warts and all, but in my naivity I think it should be possible.

Again, apologies if this comes across as a whine, a whinge, "undeserving" ;-) or whatever negative. It's trying to reset expectations to realistic.

 

[sterling976]

So why the hate?

You're asking that based on one little excerpt from my post that you took completely out of context. Did you miss this?

QUOTE

That said, I'd like to think anyone who preordered knew the risks when they clicked 'submit,' and I think the devs are doing a good job pulling it all together. I don't disagree with your point, but let's compare apples to apples.



or this?

QUOTE

I'm not dissatisfied with the level of communication I've seen so far; it's been enough that I'm comfortable I'm not being taken for a ride.



or even this?

QUOTE

At the end of the day, there's not a lot we, as a community, can do to help push things along besides work on various emulators and projects, learn what we can about ARM and embedded linux, and wait.



Where in any of that is there any hate? I was just trying to say that this is a little different situation than those described by hobbyman, and that as a result, you're going to be seeing a lot more emotion in the community's response to news of perfectly reasonable delays and production hiccups. I even went so far as to say "I don't disagree with you."

 

[MWeston]

Okay, here's a little update just from the assembly side of things. Some people are going to bitch and moan and raise hell for anything I say other than "shipping today!", but I will share some insight into the development process of a new project. This is basically as Squidge explained it before.

The factory will not do all 4000 at once, even if they had absolutely every part in front of them. This is a brand new design using technology that still isn't adopted by all assemblers. That is the POP design. Also, the 0.4mm pitched parts tends to cause troubles and requires very specific and repeated procedures to be followed to guarantee success. Basically, we have to do this in small runs. I tested a few boards of the new design, then batches get larger like 20 boards then 100, then 400 and then maybe the balance but the procedure has to be nailed down before they will pump out thousands.

Unfortunately, right now I am seeing a failure rate of at least 25%. That doesn't really scare me as it doesn't mean the boards are junked. It just means the stencil thickness, reflow oven temperature profile and dwell times and maybe even the visual inspection stages have not been tweaked yet. Reflowing the boards and doing some touch ups brings them back to life and then they work fine. They just have to keep trying things slowly and figure out all the tough areas so that those get extra attention and the areas of the boards that never fail can get a quick inspection. A final burn in test of each board will confirm that everything works.

We need to get the failure rate down to about 3% to get production going full speed. The manual labor on patching or re-running 3000 boards is financial suicide so you can see why things are not going as we would have liked. The biggest mistake any manufacturer can do is ship boards without feeling 100% confident in the hardware. It's common practice to use customers to test your beta software *cough* *Archos* *cough* but never to test hardware.

The other good news is that once this process is nailed down, we shouldn't see such headaches and delays for future batches. Everything is new right now and even though I have the most experience with this stuff in the group, I have never worked with such tiny, tiny little parts before. Going from 0.5mm to 0.4mm pitch BGA parts is a bigger leap than the numbers would suggest. Any fellow Engineers on the board might know what I'm talking about.

 

[Eniko]

Expectations were set that Pandoras should be in many, many people's hands towards the end of November

Then I think some people were overly optimistic as the official sources quoted November 30th to start shipping, which means the first Pandora wouldn't arrive til December 2nd at the earliest, which is early December, not end of November.

 

[fettouhi]

It seems the UK is finished now - people in Europe have started getting emails now.

Yep, just got my e-mail this evening. So I'll wait for the funds to clear and I will transfer the funds again as said in the e-mail.

Regards

André

 

[chiark]

Beautiful, thank you MWeston. That explains what's going on perfectly, and gives insight into what's going on which is all I hoped to know...

If anyone bitches and moans and raises hell, they need to understand what they've put money down on. I'm happy with that, and would love to see updates regular updates like that.

Wonderful

 

[mali]

Thank you very much

 

[Esn]

Thank you very much

Seconded.

Thanks a lot for the update!

 

[WizardStan]

So why the hate?

You're asking that based on one little excerpt from my post that you took completely out of context. Did you miss this?

It was a general query, not necessarily aimed at you.

 

[Zor Prime]

Okay, here's a little update ...

Very nice to hear about what is going on, thanks MWeston!

 

[socket]

Thanks for the update! Sounds daunting but awesomely exciting to be working on something of such scale. Good luck on getting it to acceptable failure! I haven't dealt with anything close to this magnitude of complexity in terms of "mass" production but understand how this first run is by far the hardest part and things will get easier once things get rolling and the process is streamlined.

 

[TaG]

First, thanks MWeston for the update. Interesting stuff.

Title: Why All The Repetitive Topics Asking The Same Things.

In the interests of the environment I am going to recycle my posts - mainly because people keep coming up almost identical questions. This is the summary in case you can't be bothered to read the rest:

It would be nice to receive the type of news you said. But everytime the devs release snippets like that the boards go crazy, over-analyze and moan that they need more detail and better answers. So it goes on...

I cannot see what harm a small update would do (heck chip can even write it for them).
Very generous of you to let even Chip write it for them, especially after it has been announced that Chip is going to do the PR for them...

That said, I'd like to think anyone who preordered knew the risks when they clicked 'submit,'
Please everybody remember you put your money down for a device that did not exist. If you cannot cope with everything running to a carefully defined schedule without any hitches then you should not have pre-ordered. Based on some people's comments in some threads I cannot imagine why they did pre-order.

No where anywhere in the bill of sale does it say "and ongoing information about the progress of said device and all setbacks that it may receive". We are not entitled to this information. It is by definition a gift that we get information, and it's more than Microsoft, Nintendo, Sony, and even GPH have given to the community.
Good point well made.

I guess I have to be more careful with what I say now. Some people seem to read way to much into some things while completely ignoring others.

As much as there is a schedule, we're on it.
There is no 100% solid ship date for the first Pandoras. If there were, we'd tell you.

Everything that needs finishing up before full production begins is being worked on. Every unforeseen problem that pops up is being handled as it comes. We are making definite progress, and (with the exception of the bank issue) things look to be on the same general timeframe that we've expected. I don't want to say "We'll have a finished Pandora next week" because If I do, and we don't, then heads will explode. I don't want to say "We'll have a finished Pandora sometime next month" because that would start a whole other round of questions, complaints, and speculation.

Just sit tight. I should have something for you soon.Does this not sum up the problem: every tidbit over-analyzed. Even Chip is having to re-think the words he uses because of it.

An official update in the official update thread sharing the current plan would really be appreciated. If that isn't possible, perhaps an explanation of what's on the plan (particularly the critical path) and anticipated dates would be really helpful?

I realise that is asking to share a lot, warts and all, but in my naivity I think it should be possible.
I don't interpret this as whinging. It is a reasonable request. It is however a no win situation. Here's another recycled post:

Forum: Give us an update.
Devs:
Forum: Give us an update - no matter how small.
Devs:
Forum: Give us an update - no matter how small. Please.
Devs:
Forum: Give us an update - no matter how small. Please. Otherwise we'll throw our toys out of the pram.
Devs: OK, here's an update but it is brief. There's nothing much to say other than we are very busy.
Forum: That update didn't tell me exactly what I wanted to know. Give us an update.
Devs: '!'

Repeat ad-nauseum.
Questions, demands, snippets as requested, over-analysis, not enough for people, rinse and repeat.