What would the world and his dog think if P2 used an x86 SOC? (but not mini SD) ;)

[Exophase]

Is SDIO read speed likely to be an issue when playing video - or other such activities?

Not sure why you said SDIO - I'll assume you meant SD or eMMC read speed. Even really high quality 1080p h.264 encodes are usually < 2MB/s rate (megabytes, not megabits). Even Pandora's SD interface can easily handle that.

But if it is what are you going to do? No one is going to want to buffer the entire video first, even if you have space for it..

 

[Grench]

2GB is likely enough for any single OS and application.  Where the 4GB+ really would help is in multi-tasking, running virtual machines, etc...  Those may be beyond the standard 'usage case'.

I'm betting that nearly any current SoC is going to have sufficient speeds through the SD interface to play video and the like.  Where each SoC tops out would be interesting to know - i.e. can they keep up with the fastest SD cards that will be out in 2015?

The current Pandora maxes out around 18MB/sec.  Should we flunk any SoC that can't keep up with at least 50MB/sec?  100MB/sec?

 

[EssoAir]

Is SDIO read speed likely to be an issue when playing video - or other such activities?

I can play 1080p video with a Class 4 SD card on my Galaxy S4 without a hitch.

 

[Exophase]

A lot. Pretty much anything that uses NDK is hitting the hardware. If you want an idea of how Android would feel without it, look at Google TV which is currently without NDK support. There's pretty much nothing worthwhile available.

But consider that:

1) NDK is a fat binary format so it can and often does contain both ARM and x86 builds simultaneously. Most software released in the past year or more probably was already targeting x86, unless they had a big technical reason not to (like DraStic currently)... also consider that if your app is big enough and you don't support x86 Intel will probably come knocking on your door and offering money to incite you to do so - they put aside some dozens of millions of dollars for this purpose. And no they haven't knocked on our door yet if anyone's wondering

2) Intel's Android runtime can convert ARMv7a binaries to x86. They claim something like 90% compatibility, which isn't that surprising since an NDK binary isn't going to do too many weird things usually. From the publications on this it sounds like they achieved at best 40-50% native performance, which is a pretty huge hit but if your processor is already twice as fast as the highest end ones around the time when the app was developed it's not necessarily the end of the world (awful for battery life though).

This is very true. Aside from emulators, no one thinks of optimization when they are writing code for x86, so none of the software that people want to run would be optimized.

I don't think this is always true. Look at x264. There are some things where ARM may have gotten more optimization in recent years out of necessity.. but let's be serious here, even in this community is writing ARM assembly still? Who is writing heavily tuned NEON code? It's just a few people.. and I don't know if there are a lot of people still doing SSE either but at least some will remember having done it years ago.

The compilers are also probably a little better at auto-vectorization for x86. Especially if you use ICC (not encouraging it but the option is at least there)

 

[b_o_b]

I really dislike the idea of not having backwards compatibility, it took years for Pandora to have a similar repo as the GP2X. I will certainly not pre-order or be an early buyer if it is not. And a P2 without Notaz? That is like FC Barcelona without Messi. Maybe they will play a good game, but it will never be brilliant.  

 

[Mr_Loon]

Another plus point for 4GB is that it would help P2 stand out from tablets & smartphones as it would give the capability to run virtual machines or demanding desktop applications. When using P2 connected to an external monitor then this 'full desktop experience' could be a good selling point.

I really dislike the idea of not having backwards compatibility, it took years for Pandora to have a similar repo as the GP2X. I will certainly not pre-order or be an early buyer if it is not. And a P2 without Notaz? That is like FC Barcelona without Messi. Maybe they will play a good game, but it will never be brilliant.

I agree, but given the difficulty in sourcing a current Gen ARM SoC it could be time to think the unthinkable. Either way, I'd love to see the P2 designed so a simple change of 'motherboard' would allow an ARM or x86 variant to be manufactured. Not 2 variants at launch, but maybe a year or two down the line.

 

[fusion_power]

Again, I accept everything that makes an "P2" possible. If ARM chipsets are cheaper and have good support , then use ARM. If an X86 chipset is cheaper and has good support, use this. I more concern about an realy usable and good WiFi the next time. My Pandora WiFi is just horrible! ^^

 

[Binky]

'full desktop experience' could be a good selling point.

You don't 4GB for a full desktop experience.

I got by very well with KDE4 on 2GB of ram for a few years - Only running out when trying to edit huge .xcf files.

Not sure why you said SDIO -
...

But if it is what are you going to do? No one is going to want to buffer the entire video first, even if you have space for it..

I thought things like the pandora had an SDIO bus, to which you can connect any SDIO device. Data storage is one of many (and by far the most common) thing you can do on an SDIO connection. The same system would be used in a very similar way if someone were to connect a camera or wifi module - its just that they never do.

If some SOC couldn't get enough data through the SDIO connection to play High-res video, then that would be a reason not to use that SOC - later posts above suggest that this isn't going to be a problem though

 

[Grench]

Hmm...  I'm not an expert at reading datasheets.  The only wifi mentions I'm finding in

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processors/atom/atom-z36xxx-z37xxx-datasheet-vol-1.html

pertains to using sdio to run the wifi.

I wonder - how far fetched would it be to run the WiFi via the USB 2 host leaving the USB 3 host for peripherals in order to save the SDIO for slot-level access?

Or am I missing something in the Z3770 datasheet where wifi can connect other than SDIO or USB?  (likely)

 

[Grench]

...

All of this would need to be weighed out regardless of the SoC.  If I'm interpreting it right, it looks like the Z3770 gets it's best performance when going dual channel - accessing two RAM modules?  So there may be a performance edge to be gained as well?

Speed - does splitting the RAM over 2 units to take advantage of dual channel RAM yield a significant performance increase?

Size in GB - Clearly there are 1GB, 2GB and maybe even 3GB units - what other sizes exist?

Availability - which ones can we get to fit?

Physical size on MB - If not PoP then how big are they?

Cost - how much do 2GB LPDDR3 modules cost?

Capabilities - what would 4GB allow that 2GB would not?

Does 2+2GB = 4GB use twice the power as 1+1=2GB or is it more like 1.2 times as much?

Somewhere in the mix of those is a solution.

Still - those data sheets are cool.  I'm probably more of a hindrance than a help in reading them though.  Fun to sort through though.

The speed question - there is a definite bump when going from single to dual channel.

Page 20 of http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processors/atom/atom-z36xxx-z37xxx-datasheet-vol-1.html

Single channel 8.5GB/s.  Dual channel 17.1GB/s

Not sure what the power use of a 2nd channel setup winds up being - might be a rough trade off.

 

[Grench]

Hmm...  I'm not an expert at reading datasheets.  The only wifi mentions I'm finding in

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processors/atom/atom-z36xxx-z37xxx-datasheet-vol-1.html

pertains to using sdio to run the wifi.

I wonder - how far fetched would it be to run the WiFi via the USB 2 host leaving the USB 3 host for peripherals in order to save the SDIO for slot-level access?

Or am I missing something in the Z3770 datasheet where wifi can connect other than SDIO or USB?  (likely)

Bear with me a bit - learning new to me stuff here.

Would a module something like:

http://www.gainspan.com/products/gs2011m

connect to the SIO interfaces detailed on page 36 of the Z3770 fact sheet?

Or would it have to consume the SDIO interfacce?

 

[thatgui]

I wonder - how far fetched would it be to run the WiFi via the USB 2 host leaving the USB 3 host for peripherals in order to save the SDIO for slot-level access?

I would not advise to do that, USB2 is a power hog

 

[Mr_Loon]

'full desktop experience' could be a good selling point.

 You don't 4GB for a full desktop experience.

I got by very well with KDE4 on 2GB of ram for a few years - Only running out when trying to edit huge .xcf files.

I think what you mean to say is 'I don't need 4GB for a full desktop experience. Except for when I do.'

From a personal perspective I would need 4GB for a full desktop experience (image editing & game performance), look at the specs of the vast majority of desktop PC's and you'll find that 4GB is now considered entry level. So I doubt I'm alone in this.

Don't discount the fact that 4GB would help P2 stand out from the vast sea of Smart Phones & Tablets that will soon also be able to be used as desktop replacements.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Maybe there's hard or soft tricks to use 2G, and activate the other 2G when needed (not for cache, obviously).

 

[_wb_]

Never hurts to have more RAM, but I would prefer 2GB of expensive, faster, lower-power RAM over 4GB of cheaper RAM.

Also, if the SD card speeds are significantly faster than they are now (which they will be), then you can have a big swap partition with reasonable performance.

I don't really see what you would need huge amounts of RAM for in a handheld - the only really RAM-hungry tasks I can think of are video editing, large image editing, multitasking a lot, and big compile jobs. Most of those you're not going to do on a handheld anyway, mostly because of the limited screen size.

If we stick to a slim GNU/Linux distro, most of the RAM will be available for applications anyway. In desktop machines running Windows, you need lots of RAM because Windows itself is eating a lot of it itself.

 

[PokeParadox]

On a Linux PC 4GB is easily enough for most tasks including games.

On a Windows Vista and above PC you are starting to struggle...

EDIT: Ninja'd h34r:

 

[Ian J]

I don't care which CPU we use as long as it's got more horsepower.

 

[Thorgan]

What about a swappable CPU everything ?     :

 

[EssoAir]

What about a swappable CPU everything ? :

YES! That way the entire 128gb of storage can be filled with drivers to support every possible hardware configuration. Its genius!

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

+1.  Pandora 2 would be the ULTIMATE machine!!!!  Way of the FUTURE!!!!  Come on ED, let's make this happen.  Then P2 would OFFICIALLY be called open device because you can't can swap anything you'd like.