What Should The Pandora File Archive Look Like?

[whiskthecat]

I like the way it was done on the GP2X. Simply unzip the program to a folder you created. Some people said that it was too hard for the average person. Well that's sad.

 

[Squidge]

Anyway, I don't know how it would work with Pandora, but I simply can't imagine running a modern linux distribution with good package management...

Neither can I on a console. On a desktop it's easy, but on a console.

Also, the problem is compounded when someone uses the Pandora without Wifi - how does the package management work then? Does the archive ask if you have each library? That would confuse people, and if it just bundled all the libraries needed, you could end up with 200MB downloads for a 20MB program and a waste of 120MB of download or so.

I like the way it was done on the GP2X. Simply unzip the program to a folder you created. Some people said that it was too hard for the average person. Well that's sad.

I'm sure we could make the extraction simpler if a user really does want it done for them. Sort of a "Found blah blah blah_install.zip on your sd card, would you like to install it?".

 

[Dutch_Cap]

I like the way it was done on the GP2X. Simply unzip the program to a folder you created. Some people said that it was too hard for the average person. Well that's sad.

That's pretty much what I'm suggesting, except if you open the folder, the program is run instead navigating to the folder.

 

[whiskthecat]

That's pretty much what I'm suggesting, except if you open the folder, the program is run instead navigating to the folder.

Gmenu2x pretty much does that. I think the OS could handle what you are talking about, kind of like a shortcut to the program.

 

[Shiny]

Repositories are not web-based (although you can manually download packages from them if for some reason you want to). They are connected to with package managers.

Whatever :/ sorry for not being a Linux nut. Of course, I was actually talking about the file archive itself as the thread title suggests, but all of this talk about 'repositories' and 'package managers' have left me to guess what it all means because I have never even touched Linux.

And as previously mentioned, a package manager may not be the best solution because most everything will be stored on removable media.

It would be really convenient if you could just download a file in the archive from the web browser and instantly be confronted with an installer that automates everything for you.

 

[JakeK]

I think what most people are forgetting is the availability of WiFi. Here in Australia it is shit. I live in the country and the only places that supply WiFi is McDonalds. I could use the WiFi in my house but that is the only place it is available. Don't assume WiFi is available everwhere because you have it. This means the only option is to go with the safe option and that is unpacking it yourself. Maybe you could have what you want but as a secondary option but I don't want to be screwed over because I don't have WiFi.

 

[atomicthumbs]

OK, Wifi is availble almost everywhere. But seriously, are you going to be upgrading your Pandora at a cafe?

 

[Shiny]

I think what most people are forgetting is the availability of WiFi. Here in Australia it is shit. I live in the country and the only places that supply WiFi is McDonalds. I could use the WiFi in my house but that is the only place it is available. Don't assume WiFi is available everwhere because you have it. This means the only option is to go with the safe option and that is unpacking it yourself. Maybe you could have what you want but as a secondary option but I don't want to be screwed over because I don't have WiFi.

Since what I have in mind is Web based, that wouldn't be a problem. And unpacking it on a PC shouldn't be too hard because I doubt they'd use some sort of non-standard compression format (something widely used like zip or rar). The only difference between installing on the pandora and through a PC<->pandora connection would be having to decompress and move the files yourself.

I say that a 'one click' on-the-go installation system is necessary because managing files on a handheld is pure hell. The mini-keyboard would help alleviate this, but it's still not the same as having a full size keyboard, mouse, and windowed environment.

OK, Wifi is availble almost everywhere. But seriously, are you going to be upgrading your Pandora at a cafe?

Yes.

 

[Coder_TimT]

...
Also, the problem is compounded when someone uses the Pandora without Wifi - how does the package management work then? Does the archive ask if you have each library? That would confuse people, and if it just bundled all the libraries needed, you could end up with 200MB downloads for a 20MB program and a waste of 120MB of download or so.
...

Now to be fair, that is a bit of an exaggerated example... And I don't see how it would work out that way in the "real world" anyway. You suggested "core pandora" libs are linked shared and any other libs statically linked. This will result in downloaded a partially statically linked programs of size X. My suggestion is an archive that resolves dependencies. "Core pandora" libs are known and not downloaded, the resulting download is the program and possibly any other dependencies, which should approximately also be size X. However, if you know that you do have some of the dependencies, it might be smaller. So you would always be downloading 200MB and I would only have to do that once, then could just download the 20MB program from then on... h34r:

Obviously I don't have a good answer on how to handle the fact we have removable media. I wouldn't think it would be too hard to offer the user an option of where to install items...but I haven't thought it all through...and if you didn't install to nand, then I guess it would put a dependency on one of your cards...which obviously isn't wanted...

I'm concerned about things like "gameX" requires python and pygame. If python isn't part of the "core" OS, then you have to worry about how that gets distributed. Does that author just mention it's needed in a readme...and the user has to now download and install python? We know from the history of posts on this board, that quite a few users will simply try to run the game and then come and complain when it doesn't run. So to avoid this backlash, the author ends up distributing python with his game and the user ends up with 7 different python executables tucked away in different locations on his sd card to go along with his 14 copies of the fenix runtime. Plus did he statically link pygame, or is he expecting such a large library to also be shared somewhere...or he just distributes that himself also.

I'm obviously pro-repository/smart archive. Of course I'm one of the users who plans to download via wifi on the unit and I would love to simply type 'apt-get install squidgesnes' at the console and be done with it... Then for the times I'm not at home I can download to an sd card and be guaranteed to at least be informed of the dependent libs/runtimes, then insert the sd card and install from there...

 

[gruso]

OK, Wifi is availble almost everywhere. But seriously, are you going to be upgrading your Pandora at a cafe?
lol, I would if i could. As Jake said though, wifi hotspots down under are almost non-existent. I'm not using wifi on the home network at this stage, although I will be happy to add an access point for internetting on the couch.

 

[Vorporeal]

I use Gentoo. NO I AM NOT ADVOCATING A SOURCE-BASED INSTALL. What I'm thinking is that it would be useful to use something similar to the Gentoo ebuilds, which tell the package-manager (or whatever) the dependencies for a given application. Whatever program handles the installation of new programs/packages would check inside the program installer for a file like this, and would check the dependencies listed against an internal list of installed packages. If there was something needed that wasn't installed, it could ask the user if they wanted it to download it from a central repository or if they wanted to manually download it and run the installer on that.

This would, of course, require a newly written "package manager." It wouldn't be so much a package manager as a program that would ensure that all dependencies were met, but mostly a program that would take a installation package and install/unpack it to the appropriate location.

EDIT: A system like this would allow for users to download programs to install either using their Pandora or using their computer. It would also facilitate the process of having one copy of the needed library/package/dependency on the system (and it would ensure that you had a current enough version to run the program that you're installing).

 

[Dutch_Cap]

That's pretty much what I'm suggesting, except if you open the folder, the program is run instead navigating to the folder.

Gmenu2x pretty much does that. I think the OS could handle what you are talking about, kind of like a shortcut to the program.

Gmenu2x lets you create shortcuts, which is almost entirely unlike AppDirs. The point of an AppDir is you have a single icon (which is actually a folder) that you can move and run anywhere.

I guess it would make most sense to implement AppDirs at the level of the file system. However, ROX's solution of implementing them in the file manager works just fine. I hope ROX will be the default file manager (it's fast, powerful and easy to use IMO), but it shouldn't be very hard to modify any other program to use AppDirs.

 

[JakeK]

OK, Wifi is availble almost everywhere. But seriously, are you going to be upgrading your Pandora at a cafe?

Don't be so ignorant. Just because you have WiFi does not mean it is available everywhere else. I can't stress this enough. Attitude like this will ruin the Pandora for users like me.

And about what Code_TimT said:

You cannot expect users to know what to do witha program after install. If a program requires Python then it should come with it. The other option is to say "Here, these are the programs that need to be installed for most of the programs/games etc." If a program you want to distribute requires something other than these basic required programs then they should supply it with the program.

I think what needs to be done is some sort of feature that searches your Pandora for stuff you have and if you don't have it it downloads it.

 

[Zarneth]

I think what most people are forgetting is the availability of WiFi.
What about work? And all your friends houses? I'm in Australia and I honestly can't think of anyone I know who DOESN'T have ADSL. Even my parents have it. And they barely touch the internet. And you can pick up a wifi ADSL router/modem for $99AUD too. However there's no reason network over usb isn't possible, that'd be a software thing anyway.

On another topic? Why is everyone talking about dependency(libarary) hell and such. Dependency hell DOES NOT EXIST on debian/ubuntu, unless perhaps you try and treat it like a windows system and try and install some random program you downloaded with your web browser.

What Pandora needs:

1. A debian/apt based repository for the core software (X11, Firefox, VLC), common libraries (GTK, SDL, PyGame), and perhaps a few popular STABLE admin approved programs (squidgesness?)

2. A simple decent looking program for finding and installing programs from this core repository. (One exists in ubuntu - NOT synaptic, a much simpler better looking one)

3. A web repository of user created packages for manual download. These packages should contain any libraries not contained in the core repository. Possibly a custom package format? (ie, a zip file renamed to .pan, with a package.cfg file inside containing a package description, and a list of dependencies, formatted so our installer program can interpret it automatically.)

4. A package installer program that runs when users open a downloaded package. One click install button for the default location, but with an option to choose the install location over (ie, SD1, SD2, Internal storage). This installer will also trigger the automatic download/installation the required libraries from the core repository.

I think the User created packages should be kept separate from the core packages under all circumstances. This prevents badly created packages screwing up with the main system stuff and bricking other programs. No reason the installer can't just dump each one in it's own folder. Means we don't necessarily have to track what's installed. Just delete the folder to uninstall. Otherwise each SD card would need it's only file listing what's installed, and users would probably screw with those files anyway. The linux equivalent of program files will confuse the hell out of someone who hasn't used linux at least a few years.

 

[JakeK]

I think what most people are forgetting is the availability of WiFi.
What about work? And all your friends houses? I'm in Australia and I honestly can't think of anyone I know who DOESN'T have ADSL. Even my parents have it. And they barely touch the internet. And you can pick up a wifi ADSL router/modem for $99AUD too. However there's no reason network over usb isn't possible, that'd be a software thing anyway.

Oh because ADSL is the issue? It isn't. WiFi is a thing that just doesn't magically appear and able to use it. I mentioned earlier I live in the country. My friends may have ADSL but doesn't mean they payed 100 bucks for a WiFi router, how would it go "hey mate, since you have ADSL would you mind paying for a router you don't need so I can access YOUR internet to DOWNLOAD stuff off the net?" Do you honestly think 100 bucks is some kind of amount that one could through away?

You are doing what the previous poster did, assuming that since you are in a situation where you can utilize WiFi that everyone else has it.

Maybe another option for me (since we seem to be making rediculous suggestions) is to move into the middle of a major city just to get WiFi :rolleyes:

Mobile phone coverage is shit throughout probably 80% of the country. Now just try to get WiFi going when we can't even get full coverage.

 

[nubie]

I am sure that there will be other ways to update, no matter where you are, I would suggest a USB thumb drive as a quick way to transfer the files when you are at an internet connection without wireless.

Or the USB cable, or an SD card reader, or even a LAN USB dongle. (Does Kernel 2.6.22 have USB LAN support? I think it should.)

 

[JakeK]

I hope there is, but most people are making out that WiFi is so readily available everywhere that is the best option for providing content to the Pandora.

 

[nubie]

I think you are a little confused, they are saying the wifi is probably the most convienent method of access to the content for Pandora.

Since the tool is going to be web-based it won't matter how you do it (there will probably be options to install to your media, thumbstick/SD card, or direct over the USB cable, the mini Device one, not the standard USB Host one.)

The differentiation needs to be made between the tool, and the access to the tool. You will need access to the internet to get any updates (unless you plan to write all the software yourself), and the updates can be put on the console a plethora of ways (I used at least 3 ways on my GP2X, and it wasn't as nearly capable as this.)

Basically what we are saying is that it will be easy to utilize wifi if it is present (didn't you already admit to having wifi?)

If not, then USB thumb sticks can be used on another computer to transfer your information, or the USB or an SD reader. No-one is locking you into the wifi (the wifi might be usable ad-hoc for multiplayer gaming or applications.)

 

[JakeK]

Weren't you talking about using WiFi to do the all the neccesary stuff from the archive. It sounds like it is going to be a pain in the arse to use USB. I just think the safe option is better.

I have WiFi in my house, but no one else in my area does (friends etc).

 

[Zarneth]

Weren't you talking about using WiFi to do the all the neccesary stuff from the archive. It sounds like it is going to be a pain in the arse to use USB. I just think the safe option is better.
Asus USB wifi dongles are as cheap as $34 too. And all it takes for one person to make up some decent software for handling lan over usb. If anything it would NOT be hard to make a simple http proxy over usb program.

Also any package in a Debian based repository can also be individually manually downloaded. And debian also supports "package cd's" so you could download an iso or archive and throw it on an SD card to install from. I've been using ubuntu/debian for years now and the simple fact is anything complex we'd need is already done. All we'll need is a few simple front ends. I could easily whip a local pandora package installer (as I described in my previous post a few back) up in python little time at all with my limited programming knowledge. And a simple web archive is nothing hard too. I have enough experience with web based databases myself too.