This Poll Is About Buttons.

[Tobriand]

Maybe we can have a poll to discern which input mode most people would be wanting to use. I'd put my money on d-pad/gamepad.

Yes, that'd probably be the safest bet.

However, I don't believe anyone would want any predefined semantics on the gamebuttons beyond "accept" and "back".

Personally, I'd not only hate, but actually loathe having any dedicated home or mail buttons, for instance, and the same goes for most other bindings you could give to the gamepad controls - because they are *gamepad* controls.

I still haven't gotten over my computers insisting on loading Internet Explorer or Outlook respectively when I pressed their (imo) useless extra buttons.

 

[fusion_power]

Maybe we can have a poll to discern which input mode most people would be wanting to use. I'd put my money on d-pad/gamepad.

No, not more polls! If I see any more polls about the human interface method and subtopics thereof, I'm going to go on a killing spree.

You could ask Craigix or MWeston, how the final Pandora Action-Button layout will look like. Discussion ended instantly.

 

[aliking]

I suggested before that there be some environment variables that say which button does what kind of action (ie, accept, back, escape, whatever). Then the user can modify these for everything and apps can just load and use them without thinking about button assignment. There won't need to be a consensus on what to use for what and devs won't have to consult said consensus.

Above quote from one of the other threads about this. This is a really good point, and thankfully it's Exophase that made it, so it's less likely to get ignored...

Clearly 50-ish% of people have strong and different opinions about buttons, and the easy solution is to make it as customizable as everything else on the Pandora. If people can map buttons how they want, you just keep what is most familiar and I'd imagine you end up almost never looking at the labels.

All that's important then is what the button variables are called in documentation - user guides shouldn't say 'push Y' (or whatever button label) they should say 'push primary1' (or whatever button variable) and then I would know what I've mapped the primary1 variable to.

One way to call the button functions that makes sense to me is like this:

1-1
1-2
2-1
2-1

where for e.g. on a SNES they would be mapped like this-->

1-1 = A
1-2 = B
2-1 = Y
2-2 = X

For that reason I voted for UDLR, just direction arrows. It's simple and generic and doesn't interfere with anything else. Also, since I may turn the device on it's side, something multidirectional seems sensible...

 

[JyCet]

I think the name of all actions buttons are not very important.
I dont know if someone read the button when he play ?

 

[chad78]

Therefore, I suggest that the buttons should be labeled very simple symbols which reflect their general function within the pando OS and windowed apps. I've given a few examples here.
For gaming directives (which everyone seems to be concerned about), these symbols could be abbreviated or even called by their names.



The reason I don't like the icons idea is the same reason I don't like the Greek alphabet idea. You can't type it - not unless you know some magic three-figured keyboard sequence - or some four digit ALT code.

How do you type "Press the Check Mark button!" without saying "Check Mark"?

What is the keyboard shortcut to bring up the House symbol on my screen?

Where's the key that I press to type a Cross? You mean X? Well, then say X. And, yeah, I know there's a ? key.

But the point is - if I'm typing up a walkthrough for a game - or even a help file for my software - I want to be able to say "Press N" or "Press X" or "Press 4" - something that I can type. I'm sure it would help programmers, too, when writing on-screen tutorials for their games. "Press the button that kinda looks like a box with a triangle on top." Does not illict the immediate response of "Press X!" Or just "X". Could you take a picture of it, and put it in the game, or software? Sure could. But why add an extra layer of work to, from what I can tell, will be mostly volunteer developers?

My keyboard is not a gaming console - nor is it a gaming keyboard. It's actually a multimedia keyboard with special buttons for volume control, play, pause, etc. And a few shortcuts that directly go to my web browser, my email, chat, media player, etc. But there are also 5 keys at the very top of the keyboard that are juswt labelled "1, 2, 3, 4, 5" - those keys are not a part of number row - they are they're own thing. writen above them all ti says is "my favorites". Those keys can be linked to whatever I want them to. A Word processor, a website, a game, whatever. those keys do not distract me. They do not my keyboard any less "serious" or businesslike. But I can Type them. "Press the 1 Button" - and the word "button" is different than "key" so most people would know the difference. Maybe not all - I admit - but most. Or I could be a little more specific and say "Press the 1 Favorite button" That should be enough separation.

My point is - they added buttons and it didn't take away from the usefulness of it. It's not distracting. It doesn't get in my way when I type. It isn't gaudy or daggy. And, most of the time, I forget they are there. Just like the people who use the Pandora as a UMPC first and a gaming device second (or never) will not be distracted by the NSEW/ABXY/@#$% buttons. Unless they are a part of the GUI - (which I kind of hope they are, at least as one mode of interaction) - they may never use them. Then again, they may use them as shortcut keys, or in place of a mouse/trackpad.

I think the 4 buttons can be used within the GUI in a way like you expressed - one selects, one brings up a tool tip/help thing, one goes back, one brings up a menu or whatever. But their labels don't have to reflect that. They could - definitely - but they don't have to.

My big problem with it is how do you type it. Other than that, it's fine with me.

 

[Squidge]

Just have 'B' for OK, and 'A' for Cancel (assuming 'B' is on the right hand side).

Any more than that and it's just over kill. I don't want any buttons such as "Home" or "Internet". My PC keyboard cost £35 rather than £15, as it was the only one not to have "office keys" to which I absolutely hate.

QUOTE
My big problem with it is how do you type it. Other than that, it's fine with me.


You code have the greek alphabet as graphical images, and include them whenever you want a user to press that particular button. The only time this loses is when your writing text based user guides/etc, in which case, you need to start writing HTML ones instead

 

[sindbad]

You code have the greek alphabet as graphical images, and include them whenever you want a user to press that particular button. The only time this loses is when your writing text based user guides/etc, in which case, you need to start writing HTML ones instead

No, you just need unicode

I guess a library could be made to implement button identification. The function GenerateButton(name,format) could return an image or a unicode character.

Overly complicated, but this way the user can make global changes that get mirrored in all apps.

 

[Esn]

chad78 makes a good point.

Keep them something that can be easily typed on a typical keyboard.

 

[gaterooze]

How do they handle Playstation walkthroughs/guides? Do they actually type out "Circle, Square, etc" or is there a shorthand?

 

[Exophase]

GunPei2X; As far as I've ever seen on guides on the internet, yes, they're spelled out (circle, square, cross, triangle). Anything graphically printed would probably use images though, as do the games themselves of course.

Greek letters are part of unicode, those four can easily be made part of whatever fonts applications use, they can be spelled out (alpha, beta, gamma, chi; the first two are very well known and it won't take long for people to memorize what the second two are), or they can just use the Roman letters they look like, with "button" at the end (A button, B button, etc). I don't see the problem here?

So what if you have to learn "some magic keyboard sequence", is that really so bad? Are you going to be constantly typing about the buttons? All of the options have pros and cons. SNES layout is out, this is clearly the next best thing while not looking like a ripoff, adding a unique style while still being familiar, and tying in to the whole Greek mythology thing. If you look at the individual assets I'm sure you'll see this is the best option and that's probably why it's leading.

 

[chad78]

So what if you have to learn "some magic keyboard sequence", is that really so bad?

Yes. Yes it is that bad. God - why make any extra work for anybody? Again - people are thinking I'm just concerned for myself - as I mentioned in my post - this is about the volunteer programmers - this is about the volunteer walk-thru authors - this is about the volunteer help file writers. This is about anybody that does any work for the Pandora. Make it as easy as possible. It's also about the user. If I - as a end user - am explaining to another end user how to do the fatality move on Pandora Kombat - why should it be harder than saying "X X < < Y B >"? Why should it be "? ? << HOME CHECKMARK >" or "theta theta << lambda mu >" And if ? is one of them - that's going to cause confusion - because placing a ? in the middle of a sequence usually means you don't know what to do there. And I would wager hard money that the average gamer doesn't know the difference between an epsilon and an umlaut.

 

[Yrx]

quartercast: The main problem with your idea is that, unless the designs were VERY simple, you couldn't show the controls easily in menus. Plus, I don't really think it's all that necessary. Virtually everyone that gets a Pandora is going to be used to "press A to continue," or whatever. Just so long as conventions are used between programs, it shouldn't be an issue.

Since I've already said something, I might as well keep saying things. I would prefer the SNES layout, because I think it would be cool to bring back the retro style. But I don't really care that much. I can understand why Craig and Co. wouldn't want to change everything at this point, and the buttons really don't bother me enough for me to care.

 

[DawnOfTheRent]

I think chad78 has an excellent point keeping the buttons something in the ANSI realm of characters.. after all, aren't most READMEs in ANSI .TXT documents?

If you need to discern between keys and buttons, you can just do as Chad78 said and specify "key" or "button" or if you don't want to spell it out: [N] for a key (notice how square it looks, like a keyboard button) or (N) for a button (notice how it's rounded, like the circular buttons on the game pad). Personally, I'd probably spell out Button or Key..

I do like having easy to understand navigations, but using Icons is just too dedicated to a small number of applications. If you truly wanted your app to be understandable you can have onscreen messages displayed everytime a button's pressed..

Example:

If you press the E button, The user will be taken back to the previous screen and "Escape" will flash up in a small ignorable, but noticeable box in a lower corner of the screen and fade out.. Or what if when the button was pressed, it's tag was displayed very obviously in the center until the button gets released, then it would preform the associated function. Anyway, you get the idea..

Edit: Bad Grammer..

 

[gaterooze]

Surely we can just use a shorthand for typing the greek letters in text when Unicode is not available, i.e. [a], , [x], [y] ? Isn't it that incredibly simple, or am I missing something here?

 

[openthebox]

I also agree with chad78's sentiments. At first I took to the liking of the Greek letters, but that is because of the geek in me. I think we do want to make it as easy as possible for developers/documentors/etc... to relay the button purpose and layout to the users.

I have heard numerous times (and agreed with the fact) that the best way to convey messages to another person is through pictures, not words; so by typing Circle, Triangle, Alpha, Gamma, the user will have to consciously interpret the words into pictures. The user won't have to do that with A,B,X,Y. I know, it's not rocket science, and it won't kill brain cells for users to have to interpret words into symbols, but this is one place where I think the KISS rule do apply.

Another thing to remember, we will also be referring to these buttons on this forum when we are discussing game play and/or navigations. Who want to remember all these combo keys to get the Greek letters or have to paste the Square pics?

 

[gaterooze]

Another thing to remember, we will also be referring to these buttons on this forum when we are discussing game play and/or navigations. Who want to remember all these combo keys to get the Greek letters or have to paste the Square pics?

Look at my response just above yours. We can just say [a] for alpha, for beta, [x] for chi and [y] for psi, which are the roman letters that the button labels look like. Problem solved?

"Hit [a] to activate your slingshot, [x] to take a dump, hold [x], and [y] together to praise the lord."

 

[Exophase]

Another thing to remember, we will also be referring to these buttons on this forum when we are discussing game play and/or navigations. Who want to remember all these combo keys to get the Greek letters or have to paste the Square pics?

Look at my response just above yours. We can just say [a] for alpha, for beta, [x] for chi and [y] for psi, which are the roman letters that the button labels look like. Problem solved?

"Hit [a] to activate your slingshot, [x] to take a dump, hold [x], and [y] together to praise the lord."


In reality if you called them "A button" etc no one would get confused, even though that isn't what they are, and the design would still be able to claim to be unique/non-infringing, instead of a GP2X copycat.

 

[Squidge]

"Hit [a] to activate your slingshot, [x] to take a dump, hold [x], and [y] together to praise the lord."



You'll probably still need a picture of the buttons, else some will not doubt be pressing them on the keyboard instead and wondering why it doesn't work. ABXY (in any combination) suffers the same I suppose, but at least they'll stand out enough so they'll try them when they find out the keyboard doesn't work.

Or, I suppose you could read the keyboard, and if you notice ABXY is being pressed, to throw up a nice big dialog message saying the user is an idiot. But maybe that wouldn't be the best user friendliness.

 

[Exophase]

I kinda wish the SNES/DS style option wasn't included since it won't be done. I wonder if those can be combined into Greek SNES :/

 

[.Gogeta§§J4BR.]

what about W A S D ? lol

im a major fan of the snes style, every system I play I always talk to others as if it was a snes pad

i think it would be complicated for people to remember NSEW...
imagine this: "press N button to continue"... id seriously go straight to the keyboard!

A B C D would be cool, but you know what else would be super cool for this unique project? O P E N. no joke, O=left, P=up, E=down, N=right, so one could read it
nah I'm just bugging too much. just put a crazy combination of A B X Y (there are 4*3*2=24 of them) we'll never get used to anywayz