Things I do not want to see again in a P2

[Seany]

An accelerometer, and an interface to add additional sensors ( perhaps a camera too), the ability to connect to a beamer are somethign I want too.
Must run linux.

Must be clamshell (looks serious)

 

[WizardStan]

This is the "things we don't want" thread.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

Ok thanks for mentioning it. I'd like to prefix all my comments in this thread with  "I don't want not to have...."   Double negatives = positive I guess

 

[_wb_]

So why not have a volume wheel whose position can be read and overridden in software, and also have some extra buttons on the side (e.g. 4 shoulder buttons instead of 2)?

That way, if you don't like the volume wheel, you can disable it and use it for something else - to play pong or something. You then bind the volume up/down buttons to the shoulder buttons so you don't need to open the device to change volume. You could even make it so that they only change volume when the lid is closed, but when the lid is open, you have to press some more complicated key combo (so you don't lose the shoulder button functionality).

And if, like most of us, you like an actual volume wheel, you just use the wheel.

 

[PowerGod]

@_wb_: but don't you need some kind of hardware switch to do that ? else the wheel will always change the volume even if the software is using it's movements for something else...

 

[moxie]

Well, the eternal problem with a "soft" volume wheel is that it is dependent on the OS to, like, respond and do its thing. The beauty of a real physical thing is that it is a big old attenuator right in the signal part, and the only thing that needs to be active and responding for it to work is Ohms law. That is a pretty big advantage

 

[Klumpen]

The analog wheel stays.

*signed*

 

[FBnil]

Although I use a bended

plug (so it does not get in the way of fitting on my chest or pocket), it goes over the power switch, which becomes hard to reach. Also, maybe put it on the right side, so it also is next to the volume knob. BUT ONLY IF it does not degrade audio quality. Also, maybe swap the microphone to a place where recording audio does not sound that crappy with digital noise.

As for the volume knob, color code it (from green to yellow, to red) so we can visually see the volume. That should solve one problem.

 

[WizardStan]

So why not have a volume wheel whose position can be read and overridden in software

Such a thing doesn't exist.The closest we could get would be a digital potentiometer wired to a wheel and a couple GPIO lines on the SoC. The wheel could increase and decrease the digipot directly, and software could also control it, but software could not read it back.

It's too bad there doesn't exist a digipot with both a UD and i2c interface, then you could wire the wheel to the UD and have direct control of the volume, and the i2c to the SoC so it can have refined access to send and receive.

 

[Exophase]

Such a thing doesn't exist.

The closest we could get would be a digital potentiometer wired to a wheel and a couple GPIO lines on the SoC. The wheel could increase and decrease the digipot directly, and software could also control it, but software could not read it back.
It's too bad there doesn't exist a digipot with both a UD and i2c interface, then you could wire the wheel to the UD and have direct control of the volume, and the i2c to the SoC so it can have refined access to send and receive.

Or you could have the pot value go into an ADC and have the direct hardware volume control set either via DAC or via software control on the audio codec (this may give up some precision but I think it's negligible with 24-bit output). You don't need a digipot (which, last I looked, where kind of needlessly expensive), just a < $2 microcontroller that may well be useful for some other tasks.

Then you can read the value in software, disable the wheel, filter it, calibrate it, etc if it starts behaving badly. I don't like having to rely on a mechanical part that could go bad for something embarrassing like audio control. And I don't like having to control it blindly without any feedback, meaning you pretty much either have to have sound playing already to tell what your level is or you have to ramp it all the way up or all the way down.

You could have the apps processor do it but I agree that I don't like relying on the OS for this - although there's no real reason why you can't make it work if the software's done properly.

 

[worzyl]

Lose the proprietary charging port - charge via the miniUSB/microUSB port, whatever we go with.

I kinda like this idea, if only it serves to use that space for something else (like an extra USB/Video In or an Internet cable port for example.)

Definitely keep the volume wheel!

 

[thatgui]

That implies we are not making a successor just for you.

Did I ever say that I voicing the opinion of an usually silent minorty ? That's why I put the "I" in the threads title, I'm just voicing my opionen on what I think should change. There was never the intention to convince anyone - Ed made it pretty clear already that he wants to keep the wheel

Again, maybe you think so, but I don't find any of your arguments convincing. What's really better about the digital volume control ?

Why not ? Give me something I can work with, a general "I don't like it" makes us only going round in circles. I'm too lazy to rewrite the points I made, but if you insist I will recap them

Because convenience is not just limited to one factor. It's the whole experience that counts.

That is true, but that is only related to what I was "countering": _wb_'s argument was that using a volume wheel will always be faster. I answered, that this may be true, but that the loss of time will be not very significant -nothing more, nothing less

It happens often enough for me not to want this to be the only option to turn volume down.


....


Example, alarm goes off in the morning, and because I left several applications on, the phone is way less reactive and it takes me at least 10 seconds before I can turn the volume down. Extremely annoying.

Very interesting, same scenario, but different results - altough I tend to shut the alarm off and get up

With volume wheel, I can listen to my music and adjust the volume while the Pandora is closed and is in my pocket without looking at the device.  How can you do that with digital volume control without open the screen, and maybe log in if it's logged out, and then you have to search for the digital volume control and hope it still works after the lid has been closed for a long time.  Physical volume wheel still rules

=>

Then what you want is dedicated buttons on the side of the Pandora? I'm afraid it will be either a wheel or your buttons, and it looks like most people want a wheel. So I'm not really sure what you expect for the P2, because all people I know who have a Pandora love it BECAUSE of the wheel control. It's going to be tough to remove it and pretend buttons are better for everyone.

Yes that is exactly what I would like to have in a P2. I have to admit that I only know two other people in Person that own a Pandora, but the volume wheel never seemed to be of any special interest to them. It also isn't a thing that people ask me about / mention if they ask me wether this is new Nintendo DS I am using.

So why not have a volume wheel whose position can be read and overridden in software, and also have some extra buttons on the side (e.g. 4 shoulder buttons instead of 2)?


.... 


And if, like most of us, you like an actual volume wheel, you just use the wheel.

As moxie already mentioned, with such a solution you will transfer control to the OS, which is something at least two potential customers don't want.


But I'm still wondering if this can't be avoided: with GPIO lines, volume control could get the same "priority" as gaming input processing.

 

[bzar]

I, for one, want to be able to adjust the volume before I resume the device from hibernation to avoid unnecessarily loud sounds or sounds at all. This, AFAIK, is not possible with just software-based volume control. There is no grace period from "hit power button" to "sounds start blasting" as with a cold boot.

When turning on my pandora (from hibernation or shutdown) I usually pull the volume all the way down, then move it just a smidge to get a quiet but audible level I adjust after getting a soudn to calibrate by. If I already know the volume level is right I skip this part.

EDIT: Exophase's solution seems reasonable, provided that the volume wheel works even when the device is off for setting absolute volume if no software override is set.

 

[iprice]

I don't know if this has already been mentioned, but couldn't a slider be used instead of a wheel, or is that part of a software rather than hardware solution? All the Nintendo handhelds have sliders and they seem pretty good to me with an analogue/gradual change in volume. A slider could take up less space than the wheel, while still giving good volume control.

 

[Klumpen]

Sliders have a very limited range and always get moved by accident (especcially the one on the 3DS-XL).

"The wheel stays"™

 

[iprice]

Sliders have a very limited range and always get moved by accident (especcially the one on the 3DS-XL).

"The wheel stays"™

However it's quick and easy to identify a fave position for a slider, even if it does move. The wheel can and does also turn accidentally and it's not obvious exactly where it was or where it should be. The slider range can be just as far as the wheel.

 

[Letalis Sonus]

either via DAC or via software control on the audio codec

IBM used to integrate an additional Creative mixer in their Thinkpads solely for hardware volume control, that might be a 3rd option.

 

[_wb_]

Such a thing doesn't exist.

The closest we could get would be a digital potentiometer wired to a wheel and a couple GPIO lines on the SoC. The wheel could increase and decrease the digipot directly, and software could also control it, but software could not read it back.
It's too bad there doesn't exist a digipot with both a UD and i2c interface, then you could wire the wheel to the UD and have direct control of the volume, and the i2c to the SoC so it can have refined access to send and receive.

Or you could have the pot value go into an ADC and have the direct hardware volume control set either via DAC or via software control on the audio codec (this may give up some precision but I think it's negligible with 24-bit output). You don't need a digipot (which, last I looked, where kind of needlessly expensive), just a < $2 microcontroller that may well be useful for some other tasks.

Then you can read the value in software, disable the wheel, filter it, calibrate it, etc if it starts behaving badly. I don't like having to rely on a mechanical part that could go bad for something embarrassing like audio control. And I don't like having to control it blindly without any feedback, meaning you pretty much either have to have sound playing already to tell what your level is or you have to ramp it all the way up or all the way down.

You could have the apps processor do it but I agree that I don't like relying on the OS for this - although there's no real reason why you can't make it work if the software's done properly.

^ This.

I'm not a hardware guy, so I don't know how to make it work, but there must be a way to combine the advantages of a hardware volume wheel with those of software control. It would be fine to rely on the OS to display visual feedback, as long as the volume control itself does not rely on the OS - unless the OS puts the device in "software volume control mode", which means the volume wheel gets ignored (its value can still be read out in case anyone wants to do something with it). The expected use case would be to never go into "software volume control mode" except for things like alarms (or maybe incoming VoIP calls). As long as the device is in "hardware volume control mode", the volume wheel should directly control the volume, without any OS intervention.

 

[Binky]

Surely all you need is a analogue volume wheel with an override switch.

Make both of them readable from software (assuming that can be done easily/cheaply), and you can simply flick the switch to override the hardware volume control and trigger software volume control based on the position of the same physical wheel.

Don't like the loss of quality caused by software volume control? prefer the dependability of hardware control? Leave the switch in the 'hardware' position.

 

[Puppetmaster]

I don't like the analog Volume Control wheel in its actual form. Because the Physical wheel and the Software Mixer Master Control are serialized and one can't control the other.

What about an infinite turnable wheel (like the one that can be found on a Mouse ) that just sends the digital Signal to decrease or increase the Volume.

The digital volume value of the wheel or the software Mixer could be parallel processed by the AudioAmp and there is no Lag if the System is maxed out because the CPU is not involved.