The Keyboard Thread

[ClockworkCoder]

My favourite keyboards have been Das Keyboards. One of which had no letters or markings on the keys, which quickly made me a much more efficient touch typist.

Being able to change keycaps is nice to, especially if I can 3D print funky replacements for certain keys.

Quite like the look of split keyboards, like ultimatehackingkeyboard.com

 

[Grench]

Does anyone have thoughts to share about the Vortex Race 3?
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=2447

I'm tempted. It has everything I like about the Vortex Core but skips the, "Where did they hide that unmarked Fn1+Shift+key?"

 

[levi]

Looks good, although I don't think having insert as a modified delete is a good idea. Miss the modifier and you end up hitting delete. Although I don't think insert does anything in file managers, so at worst you'll delete anything you've selected in a text editor.

 

[Grench]

Looks good, although I don't think having insert as a modified delete is a good idea. Miss the modifier and you end up hitting delete. Although I don't think insert does anything in file managers, so at worst you'll delete anything you've selected in a text editor.

Insert is actually pretty important, but people have forgotten or never learned it's uses. For starters, ctrl+ins is copy, shift+ins is paste. That whole ctrl c&v thing was an Apple thing stolen by Microsoft.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut,_copy,_and_paste

Still, I did order one, it arrives Thursday.

 

[rygD]

I actually -hated- anytime I've ever had to use the big L shaped enter key keyboards. I touch type and every time I go for \ I get Enter instead.

I can imagine. I don't touch type, but I still your from memory, so switching to an unfamiliar keyboard, like going from my X220 to a ThinkPad from the next year I waste a bunch of time since page down its in a different place. That is also why I went with the Unicomp Linux layout instead of a Unix keyboard or the HHKB. If I were to get used to those I would be totally crippled if I was on a different one. Mine only moves a few things, and it isn't rally a problem except, usually, for an occasional capital letter when I was trying to do something else.


From another thread:

If they made a full or TKL one with a complete set of keys - maybe. Those versions they list on the new Fs website are all pretty compromised layouts. I get it - they're minimizing the mechanism count per keyboard - but at those prices, put in the other ~20 keys and do it right.

I agree; that would be a big improvement for me, too. I am pretty sure at least the smaller one is based on a historical one. Not sure on the 77 key one. Since I an one of those weirdos that offers more keys to less, the way it is made acceptable in my head is that I will be including a Fn key, and my F1-F12 will be on the number row. I suppose that since they are newly manufactured there should be one a bit more modern. I don't know if there would have been enough demand since most of the people that were initially asking for these probably wanted something like the historical ones. How much more expensive would another version that only sold a handful cost?

 

[Grench]

From another thread:
I agree; that would be a big improvement for me, too. I am pretty sure at least the smaller one is based on a historical one. Not sure on the 77 key one. Since I an one of those weirdos that offers more keys to less, the way it is made acceptable in my head is that I will be including a Fn key, and my F1-F12 will be on the number row. I suppose that since they are newly manufactured there should be one a bit more modern. I don't know if there would have been enough demand since most of the people that were initially asking for these probably wanted something like the historical ones. How much more expensive would another version that only sold a handful cost?

They didn't recreate the historical F keyboard either - that had F1-F10 on the left and a numeric keypad on the right. I have one - not an overly usable thing since it uses the gigantic (by today's standards) round connector, has poor rollover, etc... The key mechanism IS nice. In an office full of IBM Selectric typewriters pounding away, I'm sure it even seemed quiet at the time. By today's standards, though, they're noisy as hell.

Going back & forth between it and a more modern M style layout, though, it is easy to get tripped up over finding \ on the right, hitting \ when you mean shift on the left, hitting ' when you're after Enter, etc... The bi-level keys with wide bases and standard key sized tops are pretty funky too.

Vortex Race 3
I'm excited to get this one - should be arriving tomorrow. I really like the Vortex Nano (mine has Cherry MX Brown switches), but it's just too few keys for me to get used to. The unmarked Fn1+Shift layer has been a source of frustration for me on the Nano. That layer is misprinted in the manual too.

But - if I can get used to it - the Vortex Race 3 might be what finally replaces my semi-worn-out ThinkPad Ultranav keyboards that I have been using at home & work for the last 7-8 years. I ordered the Vortex Race 3 with Cherry MX Clear switches from Amazon. It feels odd that Amazon has them in stock - they're out of stock pretty much everywhere else.

I suppose I should go through my informal keyboard collection and find new homes for many of them. The only ones in 'pristine' shape, though, are the Unicomp with the red pointer stick, the new trackpadless "ultranav" and the Vortex Nano. The rest are in various states of mildly used to heavily worn. Yeah, I can validate that it is possible to wear out an IBM PS/2 M keyboard. Not easy, but possible.

 

[rygD]

IBM made a bunch of different keyboards. I am pretty sure the smaller one is a clone of a historical model (now called kishsaver based on the user that popularized it in recent years). I believe I have seen some that resemble the other one, although I think you are right that there were keys on the left. I don't think either is supposed to be a copy of the one in your picture.

When I have seen those bi-level keys on pictures while admiring old keyboards in the past I always they might be fun to use for some reason. Silly, I know. It also looks like it should help avoid hitting the wrong key by accident because of fat fingers. Is that true in practice? Do they make it more difficult to use than a keyboard without this feature?

Are you sending your other Vortex to a new home, or are you going to hold onto it just in case you can switch back to it after using your new one for a while? I liked the colors on the one at the page you previously linked. (I had to close the tab after looking at it so I don't find 30 things I want, as I have done some window shopping there before, and I could easily spend well over the cost of the one I am lusting for.)

Regarding the durability of Model M (and F) keyboards, it is only said that they last longer than most others. This is mainly directed at rubber domes. I think, though don't remember where I read it, that legitimate Cherry MX switches are rated for more keypresses than the official IBM buckling springs. Once you get into clones and Unicomp, it is probably anyone's guess. I am surprised the fake Cherry one we have is still going, as it is use, not age that usually kills a keyboard. Supposedly Model Fs are some of the easiest to repair (from the site for the not-quite Fs), assuming you have replacement parts. That, and that a zinc cased one could probably double as a weapon, is something that makes me feel that one of those, plus another buckling spring for use during repairs, should last me the rest of my life. Even if I hack together my own I may grab some of their repair kits to help make that happen.

Now I am off to check what a clear switch is, because I forgot, then I will probably check out the site you linked and start looking for old Model Fs.

 

[Grench]

IBM made a bunch of different keyboards. I am pretty sure the smaller one is a clone of a historical model (now called kishsaver based on the user that popularized it in recent years). I believe I have seen some that resemble the other one, although I think you are right that there were keys on the left. I don't think either is supposed to be a copy of the one in your picture.

I have seen a lot of IBM keyboards - from typewriters through PC Jr to mainframe terminals. None of them were as compact as the Kishsaver. It really feels to me that they're trying very hard to minimize the number of these expensive switches on each keyboard - to the expense of experience. That said, they should be very usable for typing text. Be warned though, they'll be noisy.

When I have seen those bi-level keys on pictures while admiring old keyboards in the past I always they might be fun to use for some reason. Silly, I know. It also looks like it should help avoid hitting the wrong key by accident because of fat fingers. Is that true in practice? Do they make it more difficult to use than a keyboard without this feature?

Not really. Once your fingers get trained and used to 'knowing' where the keycap center is, they're fine. No real advantage though, which is probably why they went away.

Are you sending your other Vortex to a new home, or are you going to hold onto it just in case you can switch back to it after using your new one for a while? I liked the colors on the one at the page you previously linked. (I had to close the tab after looking at it so I don't find 30 things I want, as I have done some window shopping there before, and I could easily spend well over the cost of the one I am lusting for.)

My 'other Vortex' is a Vortex Core. I wanted to try out the most compact keyboard possible. Fantastic construction, but the layout winds up being too compact for my touch typing needs. The 4 row layout wasn't the problem though. What trips me up most is how the keys on the right pinky area were curtailed and enter & right shift moved left.

I decided I might be able to get used to it - if I didn't use any other keyboard ever - which isn't really an option. It has a lot of tricks up it's sleeves - three layers for customization, special mode where Fn+Alt+Menu+. become arrow keys, tricks to move things around, etc. A firmware upgrade flips the Caps and Tab so that Tab is on top (a VERY good thing) and newer versions have key markings to reflect that. I have one of the older ones with Caps labeled on top running the new firmware so it's actually Tab. The other maddening feature is that about half the symbols are on the Fn1+Shift layer - but that entire layer is not labeled on any of the keys. So, Fn1 + Enter is =. Fn1+Shift+Enter is +. It does not come with the colorful keycap options that the Vortex Race 3 does. The Race 3 actually ships with 'normal' color keys installed and an additional abbreviated set of color accents caps if the user chooses to install them. I hadn't considered parting with my Vortex Core. Quality wise it is excellent - touch typing usability can be frustrating - but it could be 'gotten used to'. It scores big points on the nerd novelty scale though. I've pulled every key cap on my Core and added two rubber O rings to each of the key stems to cut down on the bottoming out clack from the MX Brown switches. I learned to type on a manual typewriter...

Regarding the durability of Model M (and F) keyboards, it is only said that they last longer than most others. This is mainly directed at rubber domes. I think, though don't remember where I read it, that legitimate Cherry MX switches are rated for more keypresses than the official IBM buckling springs. Once you get into clones and Unicomp, it is probably anyone's guess. I am surprised the fake Cherry one we have is still going, as it is use, not age that usually kills a keyboard. Supposedly Model Fs are some of the easiest to repair (from the site for the not-quite Fs), assuming you have replacement parts. That, and that a zinc cased one could probably double as a weapon, is something that makes me feel that one of those, plus another buckling spring for use during repairs, should last me the rest of my life. Even if I hack together my own I may grab some of their repair kits to help make that happen.

The Vortex Core pictured above feels more dense (weight to volume) than my F. The Core's milled aluminum base isn't light. The old steel body keyboards do have a substantial high quality feel to them though.

Now I am off to check what a clear switch is, because I forgot, then I will probably check out the site you linked and start looking for old Model Fs.

Cherry MX Clear is a relatively new version. It is supposed to be tactile - bump felt at entry - but with a resistance ramp to help prevent bottoming out - and no click. I'll probably still have to add O rings to it for bottoming out cushions. The Vortex Race 3 I have coming will be my first experience with them in person.

 

[levi]

Insert is actually pretty important, but people have forgotten or never learned it's uses. For starters, ctrl+ins is copy, shift+ins is paste. That whole ctrl c&v thing was an Apple thing stolen by Microsoft.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut,_copy,_and_paste

That's worth knowing - I find doing shift+ctrl+C for copy on this laptop keyboard quite awkward on this laptop keyboard, probably because it only has a left ctrl, and a bigger left shift than right shift, so I end up doing the whole palaver on the left of the keyboard. Ctrl+Insert is a clear left hand and right hand thing, which is just nicer to do.

Shift+del being cut and shift+insert seem easy to remember - copy being ctrl+insert keeps delete free for things that get deleted, but mnemonically it doesn't make much sense, and it might have made more sense being a variant of 'cut' as ctrl+delete. But I'm sure if I practice it I'll be able to remember.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Common_User_Access

 

[Grench]

That's worth knowing - I find doing shift+ctrl+C for copy on this laptop keyboard quite awkward on this laptop keyboard, probably because it only has a left ctrl, and a bigger left shift than right shift, so I end up doing the whole palaver on the left of the keyboard. Ctrl+Insert is a clear left hand and right hand thing, which is just nicer to do.

Shift+del being cut and shift+insert seem easy to remember - copy being ctrl+insert keeps delete free for things that get deleted, but mnemonically it doesn't make much sense, and it might have made more sense being a variant of 'cut' as ctrl+delete. But I'm sure if I practice it I'll be able to remember.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Common_User_Access

Yep. Being able to do that with insert is the one thing that has me a bit concerned about the Vortex Race 3. Having Insert at Fn+Delete could make for some interesting key combinations... I'm having mental difficulties imagining the hand & finger twist needed to do it efficiently. I may need to chord the right Fn+Ctrl with my right thumb...? Looking forward to trying it out. The paste though - shift+Fn+delete will seemingly require some sort of Vulcan salutation.
Ctrl+Fn+Delete to copy
Ctrl+Delete to cut
Shift+Fn+Delete to paste

On a side note - and not what this thread was intended for - when we were doing the whole Pyra keyboard layout thing, there was a call to simply remove insert entirely. I'm still glad we kept it as part of the PgUp PgDn Home End Insert Delete cluster on the right hand game pad. Should be sweet with using the shoulder buttons for copy/cut/paste.

 

[levi]

There's only the one Fn button right? So that's automatically right thumb. Shift+Insert is left pinky on shift, right thumb on Fn, and right ring finger on delete.

Or there's some stuff with layers. I don't really sit right with layers on a keyboard, because I like having legends on my keys. I still occasionally have to hunt for # on this keyboard because it's labelled UK but I run it as US, because I couldn't stand having backslash behind two modifiers. It's mostly as labelled, but shift+2/3 are wrong, '/@ becomes '/", and #/~ becomes '\' and '|'. '~' moves to the backtick key (which used to have '`' plus '¬' which is apparently the mathematicians symbol for 'not', but I've never used it until now, when I had to look up the unicode for it; u00ac apparently). Oh, and I also lose '£', but I rarely use that either.

I also just used ctrl+insert to copy some of those unicode symbols out of my terminal and into this post! Go me!

I was one of those suggesting we could do without the insert key, because I wasn't used to using it - I never use overwrite mode, except occasionally in vi when change-in-place mode is just the quickest way to do what you want, especially when I'm coming up with a sequence I'm going to reuse. I guess wherever it's quickest in vi it's also quickest elsewhere, although it's a bit different in vi because you specify what to change with the c mode invocation - so you can grow a line by cl to change a character to the right, but enter more than one character. I'd never come across using it for copy/paste before either - I went straight from the old Acorn system of using arrows to move a copy cursor around, then using the copy key to copy each character and move the copy cursor along, to using the ctrl+c/v etc. method. I'm glad too it stuck now that I've learned that I can use it there too, especially on this keyboard with no right ctrl key. Ctrl+c shouldn't be too bad on the Pyra keyboard with it's shoulder modifiers mind you.

 

[MrConfusion]

...not an overly usable thing since it uses the gigantic (by today's standards) round connector, has poor rollover, etc...

Gigantic means "AT"-type? I assume you are aware that the "PS/2"-version was simply a smaller version, so simply cut the wire and solder on a PS/2 connector?
If it's a termina/mainframe keyboard you got, then it's a different deal .

 

[Grench]

Gigantic means "AT"-type? I assume you are aware that the "PS/2"-version was simply a smaller version, so simply cut the wire and solder on a PS/2 connector?
If it's a termina/mainframe keyboard you got, then it's a different deal .

Entirely not worth it - this keyboard only gets used on the IBM 5150 PC - which it came with. I do have an adapter to allow PS/2 keyboards to be used with the 5150, but not the other direction. Still, the layout is antiquated and it doesn't get used much. It's still an interesting conversation piece.

 

[ThinkPad]

Topre or nothing!
Probably will get one for christmas.

 

[rygD]

@Grench, kishsavers existed prior to these. I can look it up later, but maybe it was for terminal or something. If they were trying to cut costs I think something like your Vortex keyboard or a HHKB with bucking springs would be the way to go, so making the kishsaver makes sense, but not so sure about the other model. Maybe it gives the illusion of being more full, and people like me are willing to accept it since it can be given a Fn key.

At present being noisy while typing isn't much of a problem. If it becomes one again I suppose I will have to look at other options. I am personally still on the fence about the new Model Fs, and it doesn't look like it would be much cheaper to go with a genuine Model F. After I looked up the Cherry clears I remembered that they sounded ideal for me, I just didn't see many keyboards I liked with them, and I really just wanted buckling springs (after testing a few with blue switches, which still feel totally wrong for a mechanical keyboard to me, but way better than the shitty rubber domes that are everywhere). If we weren't so far apart I would probably ask to visit and test some of your keyboards, especially the Model F and the Race 3.

You mentioned the Cherry MX browns in your Vortex Core, and those were another switch I wanted to try out. Maybe you can find a good place to use that keyboard...maybe make your own laptop. My first typing class in middle school used typewriter (Selectrics, I believe). (As I occasionally mention, I love manual typewriters, and would get a full sized one if I used my portable enough to justify it. Perhaps I should just get the stuff to use that as a keyboard, although that may be taking things too far, and would result in my murder.) I took another class years later and we used Apple IIes. Yeah, I never learned to type properly, and it wasn't for lack of trying (the second class was by choice since I thought it would help). I still try to fix it for a could days every year until I am frustrated by reducing my characters per minute to almost a quarter of my normal typing speed. I still pay with the idea of getting black key caps, but that wouldn't help since it is my whole technique that is wrong, not looking at them (although I do look a bit too much).

Topre or nothing!
Probably will get one for christmas.

I don't recall having ever encountered a Topre keyboard, but I have been wanting to try some for a few years.


Do any of you know if Fn is usually sticky, or do you need to use a Fn lock to have it change the keys you hit afterward? If it is usually sticky that opens up a few more keyboards I would normally not consider, like that Vortex Race 3, which I am excited for Grench to get. A mini review would be great (those switches and that layout sound/seem quite functional and appealing).

 

[ThinkPad]

I have no idea man,

I just have a fetish for any hardware made in Japan, like Eizo and NEC monitors,
Fujitsu laptops and PCs, the old Thinkpad stuff (Matsushita).
Unfortunetley Iam still unable to find a made in Japan gaming mouse which is sad

About the Topre, my plan is to get the Realforce RGB model,
and replace the keycaps with white PBT ones, it is too bad that they didnt make a full white version.

As far as I can see, some of the regular models have very interesting features like veriable switch weigh acros the width of the keyboard,
Or, on the RGB model, you are able to change the actuation point.

My primal useage will be gaming tho.

Iam also looking for "brand new, unopened in the box" White Dell AT101 - Bigfoot, but still no succsess on that.

 

[ible]

this one looks nice, what is it? it's nice that everything's there in the "right" (US) position, and it wouldn't mess up my typing on other keyboards. i've been looking at the vortex ones for a work keyboard, like this guy:
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=2009
this one has everything correct except `~, which i use very seldomly (so it's ok to be on Fn-Esc). i need at least the Number keys, for coding well, though, so the super small vortex guys aren't an option.

it sounds nice that the fn layer is programmable for the vortex guys, but it's also a bit of a pain to reach down to hit the Fn key. maybe if it was bigger (taking up also the Menu key), it would be nicer...

[edit] well here's an idea too: to keep `~, you can move it down to tab, and move tab down to caps lock, and kill caps lock and its evil evil plan to ruin my vim sessions all the time.
[edit edit] or to be more in line with what you can do with other keyboards, put Esc on caps lock via a keyboard mapping, and keep `~ next to 1. i just never got used to that in vim, probably because i didn't have it a permanent setting. here's a keyboard which would have that mapping (nearly) as default:
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=2060

 

[Grench]

this one looks nice, what is it? it's nice that everything's there in the "right" (US) position, and it wouldn't mess up my typing on other keyboards. i've been looking at the vortex ones for a work keyboard, like this guy:
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=2009
this one has everything correct except `~, which i use very seldomly (so it's ok to be on Fn-Esc). i need at least the Number keys, for coding well, though, so the super small vortex guys aren't an option.

it sounds nice that the fn layer is programmable for the vortex guys, but it's also a bit of a pain to reach down to hit the Fn key. maybe if it was bigger (taking up also the Menu key), it would be nicer...

[edit] well here's an idea too: to keep `~, you can move it down to tab, and move tab down to caps lock, and kill caps lock and its evil evil plan to ruin my vim sessions all the time.
[edit edit] or to be more in line with what you can do with other keyboards, put Esc on caps lock via a keyboard mapping, and keep `~ next to 1. i just never got used to that in vim, probably because i didn't have it a permanent setting. here's a keyboard which would have that mapping (nearly) as default:
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=2060

OK, so I just received and am typing on the one pictured. It is a Vortex Race 3. Vortex has 3 main keyboards - I have two of the 3. From smallest to largest:

Vortex Core - 40% keyboard. Great novelty, pain in the ass to get used to and actually use. It only has 4 rows of keys and chops off a whole column's worth from the right side too. I have one.

Vortex Pok3r - 60% keyboard. 5 rows of keys, so you get the dedicated numbers but no F1-F12 keys on the top layer. I do not have one.

Vortex Race 3 - 75% keyboard. 6 rows of keys. Dedicated numbers, F1-F12, arrow keys. The only keys that are normally 'on top' that are hidden by the Fn key are PrtSc, Scrlk, Pause and Insert.

All 3 are programmable - but not on the top or Fn layers. The three vary a bit on how to get into the programmable layers. But, each has 3 programmable layers where you can put in up to 120 character keyboard macros. They are distinct from the top and Fn layers. I haven't messed with that much yet.

I'm typing this on my brand new Race 3. I've had it all of an hour - and spent 30 of that getting my Gole 1 (my only Windows machine) to boot onto the network and download & install the driver update onto the keyboard. That can only be done via Windows for all of the Vortex keyboards - though other options are theoretically on the way.

So far - I'm liking the Race 3 MUCH better than the Core. I have Cherry MX clear switches on the Race 3 and Brown on the Core - that is probably part of the difference. I was never able to get used to the overly compact layout of the Core - but then I didn't try that hard. I'm sure someone determined enough could.

So - about the Race 3. Frankly I think that anyone who likes a solid mechanical keyboard would be very happy with this. It's fast, VERY compact without giving up much in the way of keys. It looks very densely laid out. Once I stopped looking at it and started typing though, it feels pretty natural. The MX clear switches are pretty good. I can tell that I'm going to either build up some finger strength or relearn to not bottom out. Full presses will wear you out on this one, but if you just type to the tactile bump, they're not a problem. So, I'm actually typing a bit lighter than I did on the Lenovo Ultranav that I had been using. Things I'm doing right off. I have a 3/4" 4"x12" wrist wrest (lazy arm typist) and a right-angle microUSB cable on the way. Being a mechanical keyboard it sits up higher than my old scissored membrane one - expected. The included USB cable has gold ends and is thick - but it connects straight into the keyboard meaning that it adds about 4cm of depth to the space the keyboard requires.

So far, very good. I plan to use this as my primary keyboard at home for a few days then take it into the office to see if I get any complaints. It should be OK. This is the quietest mechanical switch keyboard I've ever used. That said, though, it is still a Cherry MX switch keyboard and has a bit of key rattle on the upstroke. Yeah, these are making more noise when I let them up than when I press them down. Hmm... not sure what I can do about that. I may have to put rubber washers on the key stems just to act as vibration dampers. We'll see.

Now to go play some Killing Floor and see how it handles some FPS use.

 

[ible]

ah, nice. i will look into the race 3 for work, since "less customization" is good in that setting. i think my main issue with vim and Caps->Escape was that certain keymaps (like Xmodmap) only work in X, and i'm the kind of strange guy that wants it to work in the virtual terminals, too. anyhoo, funkeymonkey solves that problem now, but i see some recent changes in the repo that i should grok... looks like the masters are getting it ready for the pyra.

i guess the only thing missing now (for me) with funkeymonkey is "hot plug" functionality...

 

[hitbyambulance]

this is the $28 ten-keyless mechanical i bought last year (with knock-off Cherry MX Blue switches):


i can't say i have any complaints about it, aside from the fact that the keycap paint is kinda cheap feeling, but it hasn't worn off after 10 months of use. good key action, steel front plate, spill-proof, pretty compact. really good value for the price!