The Argument Shed

[triksR4rabits]

I'm so very saddened by this news and my heart goes out to all the people of London.

​

Well said. I am very sorry to hear this horrible news and I hope something like this never happens again

 

[KickinWing]

without getting into much more of a political battle. i didn't vote for Bush either, i didn't vote at all, nobody really impressed me, and the more and more i hear Bush talk, the more and more i really am ashamed, but as for the war on terror, i think it is a good thing. The bad thing though is that the only real ally we have is the good people of England, but to say this was Bush's fault is rediculous. We are doing the best we can to try to find these people and hault the spread of terrorism, but there's not much support, and most countries, JUST LIKE THE US DID AT THE TIME OF 9-11 have the attitude of it will never happen to us, and then it does.

This is a major tragedy, could it have been avoided, probably not. With all the security in the world, there will still be terror attacks, its inevitable and has been going on for years.

 

[DemonStar55]

wow, I just told my sister about this and she just said "WOW COOL!!!!" w/ a simle on her face, I can see why people hate americans now

 

[Magus 86]

KickinWing, it doesn't matter what they were doing when they were captured. People are guaranteed certain rights, and if I'm not mistaken, the US was at some point bitching about how some POWs were being treated by another country. If not, they were at least going along with making certain guidelines on how they should be treated. If you're going to treat them like shit, then why should they stop attacking others? You're no better than they are to torture them or want them tortured. It's not like America has never done anything to anybody else. Look at all the shit we did during the Cold War. Most of the problems we have today are a direct result of our own stupid actions. We deserve whatever the hell we get, but it shouldn't be people who had nothing to do with it paying for the mistakes... those who made the mistakes should be paying for it. After learning about all the stupid shit we did during the cold war, I was pissed at my own damn country. I can only imagine how it angered those it affected directly. While I'm not about to go out and kill people at random because of it, and I in no way think that those who do are right to do so, I understand why they're doing it to an extent. If I were in their situation, I probably would too. And like someone else always said, two wrongs don't make a right... and we provoked most of what's happening anyway. Why must we keep interfering with everything? So these people were shooting at our soldiers in combat? So what? That's what soldiers are supposed to do... War is all about people trying to kill each other. What do you expect the enemy to do, just stand there and let our soldiers shoot them? Whether you agree with them or like them or not doesn't matter. What matters is that they're still human beings and deserve to be treated as human beings.

No, the Patriot Act hasn't affected me personally, but that's irrelavent. The thing is, I don't just think about myself. I think about others as well. I know it has affected others in a negative way. Because of that, I don't like it at all. It's bullshit. People's rights are being taken away, rights that the constitution is supposed to gurantee for everybody. All the racism in this country, all the predjudices... None of it affects me directly, but it still pisses me off that anybody can be viewed as "inferior" based on something like skin color, gender, religion, or place of origin. None of those things even matter. The fact that things like the Holocaust and the killing of all the Indians for no reason whatsoever actually happened pisses me off too... None of the things I mentioned affect me directly. I wasn't even alive for any of them(except racism and predjudice, but they're not nearly as bad now as they used to be). But they're still stupid, and they still piss me off, just like the patriot act.

 

[KickinWing]

give me examples how the patriot act has affected others in a negative way please.

Also, if you don't like the country you live in, then move. Move to a country that is run by a dictator and see how well you like it there. I thank god everyday for being lucky enough to be born in the states, only to hear whiny baby pieces of shit like you talk crap about the country. Yes the president sucks, yes mistakes have been made, but this is a damn good country, go somewhere else without the personal freedoms that the USA and England, and most other countries in Europe have. Go somewhere else and see what kind of oppurtunites you will have. Do you even know anything about history? The Cold War, when we had Nuclear weapons pointed as us from Russia and we're trying to be safe? Give me examples of what we did so horrible during the cold war, the cold war that ended in Russia being a free nation instead of a communist nation.

 

[scazw]

oh will you just SHUT THE FUCK UP about the off topic fighting already

some people like bush/mike some dont but this thread should be placing our condolences(sp?) for my country and praying for our safety

PEOPLE DIED TODAY! show some respect dammit :angry:

 

[Magus 86]

Hey Scazw, people die every day... And I'm an atheist. I believe in no diety, so I'm not going to pray. Even if I believed in a diety, it wouldn't make a difference. These things are going to happen no matter what you do. But constantly pissing people off by telling them what to do and making the lives of a lot of people shitty sure as hell isn't gonna help. Don't take this the wrong way... I'm not trying to be an ass, but honestly, I feel nothing about the incident. I'm not happy about it, I'm not sad, I'm not angry, I'm not anything... I don't know any of the people who were involved, so I don't feel any kind of attachment to them... because of that, it doesn't really bother me. Sure, it sucks that it happened, but it doesn't really affect me at all.

I fail to see how killing a country's leader, only to replace him with someone MUCH worse because the original was a communist is keeping ourselves safe. I also fail to see how splitting up a country, promising to let them hold elections a year later, then breaking that promise and starting a war helps to keep us safe. I fail to see how helping to put Saddam Hussein in power, giving him weapons, and encouraging him to start shit with other countries keeps us safe, especially how he was supposedly a huge threat about a year ago. I also fail to see how giving weapons, money, and training to OSAMA BIN LADEN, AL QUAEDA, and THE TALIBAN helped to keep us safe. Good call, KickinWing, all those things really did a lot of good, and they all helped to keep us very safe and secure.

Hmm... How did the patriot act affect anybody negatively? I'd consider someone being questioned for hours simply because of the way he looks is negative... so is an anti-war group that sits around eating cookies during meetings being spied on. And some guy who says Bush is an asshole(which he sure as hell is) while working out in a gym takes a nap one day only to be awakened by the FBI agents at his door... I'd say those are all three pretty negative, wouldn't you?

You know what, KickinWing? Maybe I will move to another country... I've been thinking about moving to Switzerland for a while, actually. Every male there, 18 or older is automatically a soldier... If that were the case here, I'd be pissed... but there's a difference, you see. Unlike America, Switzerland's military is actually used for REAL defense. They don't go around provoking shit. They mind their own business unless someone actually does something to them. But because they mind their own business, nobody bothers with them, and they've never really had to defend against anything... A free G3, periodic military training, great watches, and the guarantee that I won't be killed by some middle eastern guy who someone else from the country where I live pissed him off years ago... Sounds good to me.

 

[Hanz™]

I would never, ever trust those first two sources because I can't help but sense a bias. That second source seems to just be the ACLU (a vastly liberal, anti-Bush organization) trying to raise hell like always. I see no misuse there...

I agree that the POWs in Guantanamo deserve a trial, and I do not know why they have not done so in greater numbers yet, so in that regard, I agree with you, concept.

G8 is continueing. Blair will be returning there later today, I believe.

​

Well obviously take sources like that with a pinch of salt - but don't completely take no notice of what they say...
Just because the sources are politically motivated does not mean that part of what they say is true...

 

[Kop_007]

We knew it would happen eventually.

I didn't hear about it until around 4pm on Sky News just before I was about to fly home from Shannon in Ireland.

Lots of people there just watching in disbelief.

Isn't it about time we got these ISLAMIC Terrorists out of our country? We need to lock them up like the US has.

 

[c0ncept]

as for the war on terror, i think it is a good thing.

​

Of course I agree, a war on terror is a good idea. But the way that the US in particular has chosen to fight this battle (by giving up rights that were so hard fought for) is just plain wrong. Also The fact that they keep targetting the wrong people worries me quite considerably. I mean, in the 9/11 tragedy I think it was 11 of the 19 hijackers were saudi Arabian, the funding for the attack and the training was also Saudi, Bin Laden himself was a Saudi. So why the fuck did they attack Afghanistan?

Also its amazing how quickly a country could be persuaded to stop harbouring terrorists if you use economic pressure.

And just so's you know, the US itself has been involved in terrorist activities in other countries. If not directly then by providing funding and training. So there.

 

[DaveC]

oh will you just SHUT THE FUCK UP about the off topic fighting already

some people like bush/mike some dont but this thread should be placing our condolences(sp?) for my country and praying for our safety

PEOPLE DIED TODAY! show some respect dammit :angry:

​

Praying never does any good, never has never will. You should have learned that by now. The main reason is the absense of a supernatural being (god). But anyway yes it is terrible and yes we have respect.

 

[KickinWing]

Hey Scazw, people die every day... And I'm an atheist. I believe in no diety, so I'm not going to pray. Even if I believed in a diety, it wouldn't make a difference. These things are going to happen no matter what you do. But constantly pissing people off by telling them what to do and making the lives of a lot of people shitty sure as hell isn't gonna help. Don't take this the wrong way... I'm not trying to be an ass, but honestly, I feel nothing about the incident. I'm not happy about it, I'm not sad, I'm not angry, I'm not anything... I don't know any of the people who were involved, so I don't feel any kind of attachment to them... because of that, it doesn't really bother me. Sure, it sucks that it happened, but it doesn't really affect me at all.

I fail to see how killing a country's leader, only to replace him with someone MUCH worse because the original was a communist is keeping ourselves safe. I also fail to see how splitting up a country, promising to let them hold elections a year later, then breaking that promise and starting a war helps to keep us safe. I fail to see how helping to put Saddam Hussein in power, giving him weapons, and encouraging him to start shit with other countries keeps us safe, especially how he was supposedly a huge threat about a year ago. I also fail to see how giving weapons, money, and training to OSAMA BIN LADEN, AL QUAEDA, and THE TALIBAN helped to keep us safe. Good call, KickinWing, all those things really did a lot of good, and they all helped to keep us very safe and secure.

Hmm... How did the patriot act affect anybody negatively? I'd consider someone being questioned for hours simply because of the way he looks is negative... so is an anti-war group that sits around eating cookies during meetings being spied on. And some guy who says Bush is an asshole(which he sure as hell is) while working out in a gym takes a nap one day only to be awakened by the FBI agents at his door... I'd say those are all three pretty negative, wouldn't you?

You know what, KickinWing? Maybe I will move to another country... I've been thinking about moving to Switzerland for a while, actually. Every male there, 18 or older is automatically a soldier... If that were the case here, I'd be pissed... but there's a difference, you see. Unlike America, Switzerland's military is actually used for REAL defense. They don't go around provoking shit. They mind their own business unless someone actually does something to them. But because they mind their own business, nobody bothers with them, and they've never really had to defend against anything... A free G3, periodic military training, great watches, and the guarantee that I won't be killed by some middle eastern guy who someone else from the country where I live pissed him off years ago... Sounds good to me.

​

You are a total fuck face, i hope you do move, do you even read the shit you post before you hit the button? Honestly, what the fuck is this

"I fail to see how helping to put Saddam Hussein in power, giving him weapons, and encouraging him to start shit with other countries keeps us safe"

What the hell are you talking about, are you retarded?

 

[Sponge BoB]

England are going to really have to work hard to make its young islamic population not feel like 2nd class citizens. If they do it wil only cause a shitload of young islamic people in britain to join terrorist organistation.

kickinwing: http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030410-070214-6557r

http://www.thefourreasons.org/victimsofwar.htm -22,000-25,000 dead civilians, some fukin war on terror

 

[Magus 86]

Hey Scazw, people die every day... And I'm an atheist. I believe in no diety, so I'm not going to pray. Even if I believed in a diety, it wouldn't make a difference. These things are going to happen no matter what you do. But constantly pissing people off by telling them what to do and making the lives of a lot of people shitty sure as hell isn't gonna help. Don't take this the wrong way... I'm not trying to be an ass, but honestly, I feel nothing about the incident. I'm not happy about it, I'm not sad, I'm not angry, I'm not anything... I don't know any of the people who were involved, so I don't feel any kind of attachment to them... because of that, it doesn't really bother me. Sure, it sucks that it happened, but it doesn't really affect me at all.

I fail to see how killing a country's leader, only to replace him with someone MUCH worse because the original was a communist is keeping ourselves safe. I also fail to see how splitting up a country, promising to let them hold elections a year later, then breaking that promise and starting a war helps to keep us safe. I fail to see how helping to put Saddam Hussein in power, giving him weapons, and encouraging him to start shit with other countries keeps us safe, especially how he was supposedly a huge threat about a year ago. I also fail to see how giving weapons, money, and training to OSAMA BIN LADEN, AL QUAEDA, and THE TALIBAN helped to keep us safe. Good call, KickinWing, all those things really did a lot of good, and they all helped to keep us very safe and secure.

Hmm... How did the patriot act affect anybody negatively? I'd consider someone being questioned for hours simply because of the way he looks is negative... so is an anti-war group that sits around eating cookies during meetings being spied on. And some guy who says Bush is an asshole(which he sure as hell is) while working out in a gym takes a nap one day only to be awakened by the FBI agents at his door... I'd say those are all three pretty negative, wouldn't you?

You know what, KickinWing? Maybe I will move to another country... I've been thinking about moving to Switzerland for a while, actually. Every male there, 18 or older is automatically a soldier... If that were the case here, I'd be pissed... but there's a difference, you see. Unlike America, Switzerland's military is actually used for REAL defense. They don't go around provoking shit. They mind their own business unless someone actually does something to them. But because they mind their own business, nobody bothers with them, and they've never really had to defend against anything... A free G3, periodic military training, great watches, and the guarantee that I won't be killed by some middle eastern guy who someone else from the country where I live pissed him off years ago... Sounds good to me.

​

You are a total fuck face, i hope you do move, do you even read the shit you post before you hit the button? Honestly, what the fuck is this

"I fail to see how helping to put Saddam Hussein in power, giving him weapons, and encouraging him to start shit with other countries keeps us safe"

What the hell are you talking about, are you retarded?

​

No, but for someone to question someone else if he knows his history when he clearly doesn't know it himself is quite retarded. President Bush Sr. said that the Taliban and Bin Laden were good. If I remember correctly, he called Bin Laden either a freedom fighter, hero, or something similar because Bin Laden was fighting against the soviets. And yes, we helped put saddam in power, gave him weapons/money, and encouraged him to go after Iran. Go read a history book before you decide to question what I know about it... and don't call me a fuck face when you lack knowlege on a subject about which you're arguing with someone else.

Oh... and about the Cold War, the whole thing was bullshit anyway. Both sides were too scared to attack the other... and why the hell'd we hate the Soviets so much anyway? By the way, as opposed to what most Americans think, THEY took Berlin. We didn't... which is why I don't understand what all the damn fuss was about concerning who was going to control it after WW2 was over. They took it, let 'em freakin' have it... We'd just fought a war together, why the hell should we have been enemies all of a sudden?

If you think anything that I said is wrong, go ahead and research it. And if it ends up being wrong, then blame PA's public schools because that's where I learned it. Unlike most people, I actually paid attention. And by the way, since it was Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda who attacked us, why in the hell are we in Iraq? Don't give me that "Saddam harbors and funds terrorism" BS, because even if he does, it doesn't matter... he had nothing to do with 9/11 as far as I know... and if he did, Osama was supposedly the main guy behind it... whatever happened to "we will stop at nothing to get the faceless cowards who attacked us"?<--- not a direct quote, cuz I don't remember exactly what bush said anymore... but it was very close to that.

Before someone calls me hypocritical for saying I care about the patriot act when it hasn't affected me directly, but I don't really feel anything because of what happened today... They're not quite the same. There's nothing I can really do about the attack. I can't go back in time and changed what happened. I can't change what happened already with the patriot act either, but I can, along with a lot of other people, change and affect what happens in this country as far as laws are concerned... and the patriot act always COULD affect me. But someone dying who I didn't know at all can't make me feel anything, really. I'm not happy that it happened, I'm just not really all that sad or angry about it either. I think it sucks, and it's shitty, but I'd feel that way no matter who it was. I just won't actually feel anger or sadness unless it's someone that I know or cared about. And I'm not about to pretend to have emotions that I don't have.

GG, DaveC, you are clearly a rational man! It's good to see that I'm not the only one. <---- not sarcasm

One last thing... Here's the only good thing except for a few music tracks to come out of Final Fantasy 8, in my opinion...

"Right and wrong are now what separate us and our enemies. It's our different standpoints, our perspectives that separate us. Both sides blame one another. There's no good or bad side. Just 2 sides holding different views." - Squall Leonhart

 

[DaveC]

as for the war on terror, i think it is a good thing.

​

Of course I agree, a war on terror is a good idea. But the way that the US in particular has chosen to fight this battle (by giving up rights that were so hard fought for) is just plain wrong. Also The fact that they keep targetting the wrong people worries me quite considerably. I mean, in the 9/11 tragedy I think it was 11 of the 19 hijackers were saudi Arabian, the funding for the attack and the training was also Saudi, Bin Laden himself was a Saudi. So why the fuck did they attack Afghanistan?

Also its amazing how quickly a country could be persuaded to stop harbouring terrorists if you use economic pressure.

And just so's you know, the US itself has been involved in terrorist activities in other countries. If not directly then by providing funding and training. So there.

​

They attacked Afganistan because of the many Taliban training camps there. They couldn't attack Saudi Arabia because that is where all of Bush's oil buddies are

@ Magus 86 I agree with most of your post but I felt different when I heard of the news. While I don't know anyone in London It angers me to see those Muslim fundamentalist pieces of shit attack innocent unarmed civilians. Some big men they are to do that. If they are so god damn tough and want a fuckin' war lets have a real war, their soldiers against ours, none of this cat and mouse, hiding in the shadows bullshit. I would love to see all of those cowardly fanatics blown to bits, send 'em to Allah.

 

[Magus 86]

Exactly, Dave. I don't think I could have said it better myself. We should have been in Afghanistan, but we shouldn't have been bombing everywhere in either Afghanistan OR Iraq. If we want to find someone, we need to search first, not just bomb the living hell out of everything. That makes everything worse because then civilians who haven't done a damn thing to deserve our bombs hitting them get killed. Their houses get destroyed. It'll make it harder to search cuz then we'll have to sift thru the debris, it'll take longer, and it'll give everybody even more reason to hate us than they already have... and considering how many reasons they already have, why give them any more? If you want to stop terrorism, you have to stop provoking it.

 

[Esn]

I would never, ever trust those first two sources because I can't help but sense a bias. That second source seems to just be the ACLU (a vastly liberal, anti-Bush organization) trying to raise hell like always. I see no misuse there...

I agree that the POWs in Guantanamo deserve a trial, and I do not know why they have not done so in greater numbers yet, so in that regard, I agree with you, concept.

G8 is continueing. Blair will be returning there later today, I believe.

​

how old are you Magus? do you work, own a home, have a family? I do and the patriot act has not affected me in any way, how has it PERSONALLY affected you? Are you one of the people that complains because they have to get to the airport an hour earlier than usual for security checkpoints that are making it safer for everyone to fly?

As for the people in Cuba, are you all crazy? These people are terrorist, captured in camps for training terrorist etc. They are not random arab people we just decided to put there. I think they're damn lucky enough to be alive let alone have a trial.

And this quote "And I don't really care who's being detained or why... you don't go treating people like they're not even people just because you don't like them and are fighting a war against them." has got to be the stupidest thing i've ever heard. Like i said above, these are not normal people being held for no reason. And i agree, they should be treated a certain way. Lets kill their children, husbands, fathers, mothers, etc. and then see how they like it.

​

An arm for an arm, eh? The trouble is, how do you know that you're not killing the wives and children of INNOCENT men?

I have an interesting article for everyone, by the way, from The Toronto Star:

The CIA's Worldwide Network of Torture Chambers
The Maher Arar case is pretty big in Canada right now (basically, he's a Syrian-born Canadian citizen who was seized by the CIA while in New York on vacation and shipped off to Syria where for 13 months he was tortured and not allowed any contact with the outside world), so these kinds of stories get uncovered more than I imagine people in the US hear about them. There was a nice map that came with the article when it appeared in the paper originally, showing the many countries where the US is suspected to either have such centres or where it leases the services out to other countries where torture is commonly used.

give me examples how the patriot act has affected others in a negative way please.

Also, if you don't like the country you live in, then move. Move to a country that is run by a dictator and see how well you like it there. I thank god everyday for being lucky enough to be born in the states, only to hear whiny baby pieces of shit like you talk crap about the country. Yes the president sucks, yes mistakes have been made, but this is a damn good country, go somewhere else without the personal freedoms that the USA and England, and most other countries in Europe have. Go somewhere else and see what kind of oppurtunites you will have. Do you even know anything about history? The Cold War, when we had Nuclear weapons pointed as us from Russia and we're trying to be safe? Give me examples of what we did so horrible during the cold war, the cold war that ended in Russia being a free nation instead of a communist nation.

​

Do you know how many people you're enraging by saying "if you don't like it here, then move?" How about if a bunch of crack dealers set up shop in your neighbourhood, and when you complained to one of them they said the same thing to you? Yeah, it's a similar situation. You can be a coward and hide or you can try to do something about it.

And the US did do many horrible things during the cold war (ex. toppling the democratically-elected communist president of Chile and replacing him with a brutal US-friendly military dictator who ground the country into the ground for the next 20 years; giving money to Al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups in order to not allow the USSR to take control of Afghanistan, turning what was a fairly simple revolution into a bloody war that cost millions of lives and was more barbaric than the middle ages, with the terrorists often boiling their captives alive or otherwise torturing them to set an example, eerily reminiscent of what they do now; encouraging Saddam Hussein and giving him money to wage war against Iran, which has been an "enemy" of the US since the Islamic revolution which brought down the US-friendly Shah), as did the USSR. You're deluding youself if you think otherwise. The USSR eventually collapsed from within (despite what Raegan-worshippers will tell you), because the various regional leaders thought they could profit even more if the Union broke up, and the US had almost nothing to do with it.

Anyway, this is off topic...

I saw the news about the London blasts, ironically, while standing in the Toronto Subway and looking at one of those giant tv monitors that they now have hanging from the roof. By the time I got home everything was over and the officials were sounding very calm and saying things like "we were completely prepared, everything's under control". I have to commend them! That's JUST the type of talk that will demoralize terrorists. Perhaps the Brits are more used to this type of thing because of the history with the IRA?

 

[DaveC]

Iraq was a big farse. It is just Bush Jr getting even because Saddam tried to have his daddy assassinated. All of the soldiers that died, even all of the Iraqi civilians that were blown up just for a personal vendetta. Saddam is no angel but he was no big threat to the US. He couldn't move, most of his country was blocked and was a big no fly zone. What the hell was he going to do? Attact the US by strapping a sack of anthrax to a came| and point it west?

Iraq was not responsible for 9/11. They have no WMD. I don't see how attacking them was supposed to be a "war on terror". Oh wait, Bush first said attacking Iraq was because they had WMD and were a threat to the US, Then when they didn't find any WMD then it was to free Iraqis from Saddam, oh wait they are shooting at us so they don't want to be "freed", so it is really a war on terror. Yeah that is it war on terror. I have not seen anyone flip flop on the reason for this war more than Bush.

Yet North Korea has nukes and tells us that they have them. Hey Bush there are your WMDs they are in N Korea. What no attacks? Oh yeah can't do that you are too busy blowing up the guys that don't have them.

None of this makes any sense.

 

[Esn]

None of this makes any sense.

​

READ THIS; it'll make a bit more sense. It's naive to think that it's just Bush's lust for revenge and oil - this is a complicated thing and there are many reasons, although the fact that the vice president who was former CEO of Haliburton goes and pushes through a war that just happens to benefit Haliburton enormously is more than a little suspicious. Especially considering that he still owns many shares in the company.

For Cheney, at least, I think that the biggest reason for this is personal profit. It's a bit scary, though, when you think that those in charge of defense companies are also those that have the power to start wars, and then consequently pay their companies out of the public pocket (companies other than Haliburton were effectively not given a fair chance to bid; there a whole thread about it over here on fark.com, if you're interested)

 

[jegHegy]

condolences.

also, i would like to take the opportunity to congratulate KickinWing for being an ignorant fuck.

thank you.