Talk About GTA

[Avversario]

Life in human society is structured by rules which reward pro-social behavior.

Is it? I never noticed that, maybe because we all live in a competitive society.

Ok, maybe not the scandinavians here, who knows?

Guns do not kill people, humans do.

Anyway: I am happy, that fireweapons are very uncommon and mostly forbidden (not bows, btw) in the country where I am living.

In Russia all kinds of firing arms except for hunting rifles are forbidden but I know for sure that there's nearly 0 amount of crimes committed with these weapons - so I think that weapons like pistols and non-automatic versions of machine carbines must be allowed for use by citizens in my country. Of course you don't need an AK-74 to protect yourself from criminals. Probably our government is afraid of us  .

 

[klapse]

Life in human society is structured by rules which reward pro-social behavior.

Is it? I never noticed that, maybe because we all live in a competitive society.

Oh, I'm sorry If "pro social" was misleading. Competing in private enterprise, playing by the rules most certainly counts as "pro social" in reality. It is what builds all advances in business and technology and thus prosperity and evolved social order. Every transaction, sale, contract in the free market consists of two parties voluntarily cooperating to improve their respective situation.


Totalitarianism and the political order represent another kind of social order but it is inflexible and not very productive in meeting human needs and desires. Transactions are carried by force or at the threat of force.


One of the first great teachers of how the free market works to creating a social order was Adam Smith. One of the best in the twentiest century was Friedrich Hayek.


Hope that cleared things up.

 

[Kumaki]

Here are the posts about GTA, separated out from the main topic....

 

[Klumpen]

Edit: Done.

 

[Kumaki]

As I said in starting this thread, all the pro-GTA people may feel free to continue to argue in favor of GTA all you want, here in this thread, but nobody is going to change my mind about what an absolutely horrible game GTA is...and what affect I think it has the potential to create in our society.

Feel free to argue all you wish, but you won't change MY mind...any more than I'm likely to change yours.

While I'm not real big on censorship, or denying someone else their rights for no damned good reason...I DO believe that, sometimes, the greater needs of society supercede the rights of a few individuals.  and this is a case in which I believe society needs to be protected from the influences that this game can have (and has had) on some unstable people.

As I said before, I feel the same way about the movie "Natural Born Killers."  And I believe people who recklessly put stuff out there like this...and it causes tragedy for other people...those people should be held personally accountable for the tragedy their "art" and "freedom of speech" caused to another person.

And I do not feel this is at all an "un-American" way of thinking.  Because WITH RIGHTS COME RESPONSIBILITIES.  You have rights...ut you also have a responsibility to see to it that exercising YOUR rights...does not impinge onb someone else's rights.

And the right of society at large to be safe...supercedes a few people's freedom of speech/expression in art.

As Supreme Court Justice Brandeis once said:  Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins.

I could not agree more.

 

[Avversario]

As I said in starting this thread, all the pro-GTA people may feel free to continue to argue in favor of GTA all you want, here in this thread, but nobody is going to change my mind about what an absolutely horrible game GTA is...and what affect I think it has the potential to create in our society.

Feel free to argue all you wish, but you won't change MY mind...any more than I'm likely to change yours.

Perhaps it's better to just close this thread and stop the useless holywar.

 

[ZXDunny]

I'd like to say I'm surprised by your attitude but unfortunately I'm not.

While I'm not real big on censorship,

It certainly appears that you are.

or denying someone else their rights for no damned good reason...

And yet, here you are doing exactly that.

I DO believe that, sometimes, the greater needs of society supercede the rights of a few individuals. and this is a case in which I believe society needs to be protected from the influences that this game can have (and has had) on some unstable people.

Hmm. And in the 1950s, rock and roll music was going to cause people to be come violent and cause the downfall of society. In the 70s and 80s, horror films reached a new level of realism (which is laughably plastic looking in retrospect) and was going to cause the downfall of society and cause waves of violence... And now that same set of people to which you belong are shouting that video games are going to do the same thing, with absolutely no evidence that it's happened either before with previous media or with the current.
Violent and aggressive people are going to kill and injure others regardless of their stimulation.

I work with those people on a one-to-one basis, being a nurse and I work with their victims. I've never encountered anyone who thought that their behaviour was made acceptable because they'd been conditioned to do so by the media they consume - it's always an inherent instability that started it either in their personal relationship with their victims or in their consumption of mind-altering substances beforehand (99% alcohol related).

Fortunately for society at large, your voice though heard is ineffective and you don't make the rules. People far more responsible and sensible than you appear to be have that job and they do it with more than their own petty fears at the fore.

It's worrying that you're a mod, but then again - I don't make the rules either so it appears we'll both have to just get on and live with these things, won't we?

D.

 

[SNESFAN]

those people should be held personally accountable for the tragedy their "art" and "freedom of speech" caused to another person.

you are completely welcome to believe anything and everything you want to believe with all that you said, but this. You have to be corrected on this.This is just so completely wrong, and in my point of view, the single dumbest thing I have ever read.


I am not trying to convince you that gta or natural born killers is freedom of speech, even though some could be viewed like that. (like the law) My viewpoints on gun ownership are also just opinions, the same way yours are, they're just different. Viewpoints are great, they let you see discussions in different lights that you may not have seen before. Who knows, you may convince me if you can bring a solid enough argument to the table. I'm the first to admit when I'm wrong. I may wake up tomorrow and feel there is no need for guns, it would stop a lot of crime! (can't rob a bank at gunpoint if you don't have a gun)

But the specific point I've been trying to portray, and now I'm not going to imply, I'm just going to come out and say it. You are absolutely wrong in what I just quoted you in saying. Your view in these forms of media causing those people to act out in violent ways is just not correct, not even partially correct. Just wrong, nothing else. Those movies and games did not cause them to act the way they did. They made the decision to do the things they did, therefore they are the only ones at fault, nobody else.


The personal accountability is on the person obtaining a firearm and using it on another person. Nobody at all is to be blamed but the people doing it, even if they acted out scenes in a movie or game that someone else wrote. Even if there was a subliminal message in them to go kill people.... Hell, lets go even crazier and say that they flat out tell you to go out and get a gun and shoot people..... Now lets just go freaking nuts, and say they give you a free ak-47 preloaded with ammunition and a copy of natual born killers movie bundled with the game on audiobook so you can listen to it while you're on your massacre, that also includes a note that says take this to school and get 100 points for each kid you kill (ZOMG RIGHT!?!11!) It is still... your f*ing responsibility... to not use it to kill another person. Regardless of age or mental state or anything else. That is the only true way to look at it, all other ways are false.


The people who committed those travesties are F*ed up in the head, it can't get any simpler, and it's not any more complicated than that. Movies and games don't kill people just the same as guns don't kill people. Nor does owning a gun cause you to kill or want to kill people. Guns are just a tool, and that tool's purpose is to kill. Games and movies are just forms of entertainment, they are to be enjoyed and maybe played out in real life if you're some L.A.R.P. wierdo... but even then, you're still kinda weird (see F*ed in the head, just not as bad as a psychopath*)


* disclaimer, if you like L.A.R.P, the comment was in jest, please don't come after me with your lightsabers**


** you'd still be accountable for using the lightsaber to cut me up, you could not blame starwars for your actions.

 

[PowerGod]

Even censorship can cause violence... but how can you censor it at some point ?!   :blink:

 

[Klumpen]

Self responsibility

Important point.

 

[gotwake424]

Why isn't this in off-topic? 

 

[TrashyMG]

Why isn't this in off-topic? 

Wondering the same thing.. Moving thread to off-topic.


Flame-On!

 

[Klumpen]

Pandora port of Postal2 anyone?

Ok, that game is too much, even for me.

If Kumaki would see it, she would probably get a heart attack.

 

[Neelix]

I'd actually argue the other way....   I believe that violent video games actually reduce levels of real life violence,  as it gives people a safe outlet for their aggression and stress.

I can personally vouch for GTA  IV as a great stress reliever.  When I was working in a call centre  I sometimes received calls from people who felt they had the right to make me their verbal punching bag, which left me feeling very stressed out by the end of the day.    I found that taking out my stress on the innocent citizens of liberty city for a couple of hours left me feeling much better,  and much more sociable than I would otherwise have been.    I can also say that I've never once felt the urge to enact any such violence in real life.

- Neelix

 

[Klumpen]

I agree. At times when I was a victim of really heavy mobbing in school, because I was extremely (!) poor and had no decent clothing etc...

I played so much Quake 3 Arena auricularly on my fathers (later one of my many brothers) PC, that the hardcore mode was way too easy for me after a short while.

The mobbing ended after some years after I stopped trying to argue with them and physically retaliated hard one time and showed them fear

(I was always quite strong but way too peaceful and diplomatic for these dogs people).

Without the egoshooter vent, I would have killed either myself or someone else instead of slowly learning how to deal with people in a way between pacifism (victim) and amok (killer).

Not to mention, that I was quite good at Mortal Kombat 2, including fatalities. ^^

So, these games might save some lives.

 

[Kumaki]

I'd like to say I'm surprised by your attitude but unfortunately I'm not.

While I'm not real big on censorship,

It certainly appears that you are.

>>>>>>>
or denying someone else their rights for no damned good reason...

And yet, here you are doing exactly that.

I DO believe that, sometimes, the greater needs of society supercede the rights of a few individuals. and this is a case in which I believe society needs to be protected from the influences that this game can have (and has had) on some unstable people.

Hmm. And in the 1950s, rock and roll music was going to cause people to be come violent and cause the downfall of society. In the 70s and 80s, horror films reached a new level of realism (which is laughably plastic looking in retrospect) and was going to cause the downfall of society and cause waves of violence... And now that same set of people to which you belong are shouting that video games are going to do the same thing, with absolutely no evidence that it's happened either before with previous media or with the current.

Violent and aggressive people are going to kill and injure others regardless of their stimulation.


I work with those people on a one-to-one basis, being a nurse and I work with their victims. I've never encountered anyone who thought that their behaviour was made acceptable because they'd been conditioned to do so by the media they consume - it's always an inherent instability that started it either in their personal relationship with their victims or in their consumption of mind-altering substances beforehand (99% alcohol related).


Fortunately for society at large, your voice though heard is ineffective and you don't make the rules. People far more responsible and sensible than you appear to be have that job and they do it with more than their own petty fears at the fore.


It's worrying that you're a mod, but then again - I don't make the rules either so it appears we'll both have to just get on and live with these things, won't we?


D.

EXCUSE ME!!

I do NOT Mod to any excess, and normally have backup of other Mods in anything I do.  Splitting this topic was one of few independent things I have done as a Mod.  And I am quite sure other Mods would have agreed with the action!

Believe me, I could have Hidden or Deleted the posts, too.  I chose not to do that, no matter how much I might have liked to.

Unless you have some EVIDENCE that I am, in some way abusing or misusung my powerrs as a Mod, I'll thank you to never attack my integrity in that way again!

I am a Mod for a single reason:  I stepped forward and volunteered when the call was issued.  I did so for two reasons:

1. I DO have previous and current experience Adminning, Modding, and SYSOP-ing Boards.

2. This was something I could give back to the community which has given me much - since I cannot code my way out of a paper bag, this was what I could do to give back.  It takes some of my time and effort to do this.  I give this time and effort freely and cheerfully - because of all this community, as a whole, has given to me.

While you may not agree with my opinions, or even like me personally, THAT IS NO EXCUSE to attack my status as a Mod.  Unless you have some REAL EVIDENCE that I have in any way, over-reached, or abused my Mod powers, I will be expecting an apology for that attack.  And if I do not get one, I will report it for other Mods to deal with, and remove myself from any decision-making process about it.  But I believe your attack on my Mod status is unwarranted and uncalled for. 

Although an apology issued after it was demanded is basically meaningless.  You should have known youself that you were out of line and your attack was unwarranted and uncalled for.

I have nothing further to say to you, sir.  Good day.

 

[Kumaki]

those people should be held personally accountable for the tragedy their "art" and "freedom of speech" caused to another person.

you are completely welcome to believe anything and everything you want to believe with all that you said, but this. You have to be corrected on this.This is just so completely wrong, and in my point of view, the single dumbest thing I have ever read.

I am not trying to convince you that gta or natural born killers is freedom of speech, even though some could be viewed like that. (like the law) My viewpoints on gun ownership are also just opinions, the same way yours are, they're just different. Viewpoints are great, they let you see discussions in different lights that you may not have seen before. Who knows, you may convince me if you can bring a solid enough argument to the table. I'm the first to admit when I'm wrong. I may wake up tomorrow and feel there is no need for guns, it would stop a lot of crime! (can't rob a bank at gunpoint if you don't have a gun)

But the specific point I've been trying to portray, and now I'm not going to imply, I'm just going to come out and say it. You are absolutely wrong in what I just quoted you in saying. Your view in these forms of media causing those people to act out in violent ways is just not correct, not even partially correct. Just wrong, nothing else. Those movies and games did not cause them to act the way they did. They made the decision to do the things they did, therefore they are the only ones at fault, nobody else.

Then WHY did they cite "Natural Born Killers" or "GTA" as the inspiration for them to act as they did?  Maybe if they were never exposed to that sort of trash, they would not have done what they did!  Explain THAT.

The people who committed those travesties are F*ed up in the head, it can't get any simpler, and it's not any more complicated than that. Movies and games don't kill people just the same as guns don't kill people. Nor does owning a gun cause you to kill or want to kill people. Guns are just a tool, and that tool's purpose is to kill. Games and movies are just forms of entertainment, they are to be enjoyed and maybe played out in real life if you're some L.A.R.P. wierdo...

Again, I could not agree with you more that these people are already F*ked in the head...BUT THAT IS ALL THE MORE REASON TO PREVENT THESE KINDS OF PEOPLE FROM GETTING THEIR HANDS ON THIS SORT OF SHIT.  And if that means taking it away from everyone else, too, then so be it.  My right to be SAFE is more important.

And I know owning a gun does not make you want to kill people.  I myself once owned a gun.  A Mossberg 12-gauge pump-action pistol-grip shotgun.  I had it for home defense, when I lived alone, and in an apartment where I could not own a dog...and I was the only paleface for miles around.  This was in the barrio in South Austin.  I picked the gun I did BECAUSE I'm a lousy shot...and with a gun like that, you don't HAVE to be a good shot...the spread alone gets them.  Fortunately, I never had to USE that gun, except a few times on a firing range, and boy, let me tell you, the kick on that thing was a bitch!  It kept pulling my shots UP.  I had to aim lower than what I wanted to hit.

Anyway, after I moved into a different apartment, where I could have a dog, I got a dog and sold the gun.  Never liked it or wanted it in the first place, and I'm glad as hell I never had to use it.  But that is a gun for HOME DEFENSE.  I have no issue with people wanting and owning guns for home defense....or a nice hunting carbine.  If you are a hunter for sports or food, bully!!  You should have your hunting rifle.  BUT NOBODY NEEDS A GODDAMNED AK-47.  I think we could agree on at least that point, couldn't we?

 

[Kumaki]

Why isn't this in off-topic? 

I chose to put it in General for now, because that is where the original topic WAS.  It will be moved tomorrow to Off-Topic.

I wanted to make sure everyone who WANTED to be a part of the discussion was able to find the new thread, so that nobody would cry foul over my modding.

Never mind, it would appear that Trashy has already done it.

 

[SNESFAN]

I'm done, I spelt it out as to leave no room for interpretation and yet you somehow still misinterpreted what I said.

Don't quote me if you are going to ignore what you quote.

See ya

 

[gotwake424]

Why isn't this in off-topic? 

I chose to put it in General for now, because that is where the original topic WAS.  It will be moved tomorrow to Off-Topic.

I wanted to make sure everyone who WANTED to be a part of the discussion was able to find the new thread, so that nobody would cry foul over my modding.

Never mind, it would appear that Trashy has already done it.

It got split from another discussion.....

It should have been split into off-topic from the beginning

Yup, Thanks Trashy