SoC Poll - What's most important for you?

[Klumpen]

The fascinating thing about this discussion is, that if you follow the arguments of pro x86 in a more general way,

it's also an argumentation against Linux on desktops in general, because you will have problems finding lots of software that is available for Linux but not for Windows.

There are other things to consider as well, not only mass compatibility.

I changed to Linux because I want to live/support the better and not the easy way.

 

[Screeny]

The voting is not yet over, we don't know what the results will be, but you should accept that other people might not want x86.

 
We should create 2 dev-pyras One with ARM and one without. It's like a religious question ... the only way to get a good answer is testing and proving.

 

[comradekingu]

The Pyra should stop the "nerd'n'geek" image that the pandora gets. We should produce a product with much more ablity to be mainsteam.

Honestly, the minute that the Pyra ceases to be a homebrew handheld is the minute I choose not to buy one. I got a GP2X for homebrew and emulation, and enjoyed both equally. I then continued onto the Pandora and enjoyed them both in much the same way. Sure, I use the computer aspects of the Pandora and enjoy them, however, that is not my main purpose for the device. If we go x86 and do what you're suggesting, this device will lose its magic and be just another Razer Edge/nVidia Shield, except made by a company with a lot less resources and a much smaller name.

-God Ginrai

And - hopefully - a better community. Homebrew is possible with x86 too. If we create an open system we will get devs automatically. I don't talk about using of Windows. Just Debian with x86 would be nice.

The main purpose for a 500€ device should be homebrew only? That sounds like a joke ... I don't want a niche device anymore.

Then get something else, just because you want a x86 handheld, does not make it viable. Nobody has successfully done it, big or small. Unless you go 15+ years back in time. Add to that the fact it _is_ a niche device, targeting a niche audience, with a similarly non generic production team.

 

[SeeThruHead]

It's very viable. But it seems the Ed us the only person who really wants to use an soc this way. Everybody else is creating tablets. The only interesting thing I would say is the shield but it doesn't have Linux and isn't x86 so it's mostly uninteresting as well. Arm was really good when it was the only option for low power computing. But it isn't any more.

 

[CrazyIvan]

No, NEON is not available on x86.

As well as many other ARM-specific acronyms. But there are functional equivalents (for NEON it's SSE* and AVX* instruction sets) and that is enough to perform the same compiler based auto vectorization or even manual vectorization as supported by gcc extensions. Only code that's explicitly tied to NEON intrinsics or assembly is not portable and that is basically limited to a small amount of emulators that will run fine on any modern SoC even without them. That was my point.

The fascinating thing about this discussion is, that if you follow the arguments of pro x86 in a more general way, it's also an argumentation against Linux on desktops in general, because you will have problems finding lots of software that is available for Linux but not for Windows.

 
You're generalizing too much (to the point of being wrong). There is a lot of instruction set agnostic people that chose atom because they believe in intel support more than that of Imagination Technology

 

[comradekingu]

It's very viable. But it seems the Ed us the only person who really wants to use an soc this way. Everybody else is creating tablets. The only interesting thing I would say is the shield but it doesn't have Linux and isn't x86 so it's mostly uninteresting as well. Arm was really good when it was the only option for low power computing. But it isn't any more.

Maybe thats because, as i said, its a niche platform... The sheild runs linux. Insofar as its more comparable than the failed windows running x86 clamshells of yester year. linux|gnu and android is on every other gaming handheld. Maybe with the omission of the razer thing, that got canceled → X86, windows, mass market, sounds familiar? Im going to say you are partly right, because even Mips (gcw-zero) is more of a goto solution in the real world. If you want x86 devices, go to the last vendors that are alive, they have enough trouble selling laptops at the price it commands. No small company survives in x86, x86 has _nothing_ in small form factor, much less a viable future plan, and if it did, going there is a huge risk, for which there is no tangible reward seeing as dragonbox is a small linux|gnu vendor.

Furthermore, game-centric handheld clamshells isnt generic because it isnt.

Everyone else _wants_ tablets, afaik as evident by this poll, ARM is the arch people want for their niche device, and these are the demographic that makes up the userbase for said niche segment of the market. The diamentrally opposite stance to how that is viable, isnt viable.

TL;DR: wintel is subsidizing the x86 mobile dream for now, but its not happening. If its anything that is more mainstream now as opposed to when pandora came to be, its the platform its built on. Steady growth with less risk makes sense.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

The voting is not yet over, we don't know what the results will be, but you should accept that other people might not want x86.

 
We should create 2 dev-pyras One with ARM and one without. It's like a religious question ... the only way to get a good answer is testing and proving.

If you can give ED 2 million dollars out of your pocket then he will sure make one x86 Pyra for you

 

[Klumpen]

The fascinating thing about this discussion is, that if you follow the arguments of pro x86 in a more general way, it's also an argumentation against Linux on desktops in general, because you will have problems finding lots of software that is available for Linux but not for Windows.

 
You're generalizing too much (to the point of being wrong).

So I am wrong and there are tons of Linux programs that are not available for Windows?

Screenys argument was only about compatibility and nothing else, I underlined that there are other points to be considered

and I don't really see a connection between your quote and your reaction.

 

[God Ginrai]

The main purpose for a 500€ device should be homebrew only? That sounds like a joke ... I don't want a niche device anymore.

 Then you're looking in the wrong place, because any handheld device with gaming controls that is not made by Nintendo or Sony is a niche device. Even the nVidia Shield and Razer Edge, while made by large companies, are niche devices.

It's statements like this that made me turn completly in fovour of x86 for this discussion. At first I was actually pretty open about the architecture.

So basically a x86 based device can't become a cool homebrew handheld? Nvidia Shield is ARM and its not even meant to be open or to be a homebrew console. So where is the logical reasoning?

You know what. I get a Pyra no matter what SoC will be used in the end!

 Well that's a stupid reason to make a decision. I hate Apple, does that mean I should extoll the glorious virtues of Windows? No. And these arguments you guys make about the community being able to exist proves exactly what Shenmue was talking about, (about this becoming another SoC back and forth topic) considering that I already addressed this in the SoC: back and forth topic.

In my opinion the architecture (or ISA to be more precise) is significant part of the device, it's kind of a "spirit" inside of it. When I think about devices, for example GCW Zero, first thing that comes to mind is not how it looks or the screen resolution, but the MIPS arch. Given that this community originated from GP32 -> GPH handhelds -> Pandora (as spiritual successor) which were all ARM, I would say the successor should stay ARM too.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

EDIT:

Going to x86 despite all the merits and such will fracture the existing community base, which I see as the most important aspect of this handheld project.

Irrational fear mongering. Get your pitchforks and torches! The other is coming!

This community survived Craig. It can survive a change in SoC architecture that 99% of the time will be invisible to the end users.

Concerns about X86 bringing in a bunch of filthy non-ARM people is a big pile of elitist BS. If the worst that happens is we get rid of a few snobs that think this 'OPEN' device has to be closed off from the world - then we're better off without them. The Pyra would still be a nich Linux gaming oriented handheld device.

That's not what he means, and you know it. He's talking about how there is no community to speak of for other x86 devices. I don't frequent some special community for my Sony Vaio Laptop, and I'm sure you don't for any laptops you may own either.

The point is that if we go x86, users will treat it like any other x86 system and just mess around on it themselves. These forums would at best be a place where people only came for tech support problems.

-God Ginrai

This is why I was against having a third topic that was open to comments in the first place, because everything is getting repeated across them.

-God Ginrai

 

[commander-beef]

Dont let some ideas fool You. Just it's niche product, it doesnt mean that it will stay niche. Why ED would like to make it niche when he could go globally ? Why earn 100$ when you can earn 1000$. Its business, its simple. Of course community is important, but community comes and goes [like You and Me]. [as you can see nobody here remembers gp32x.de from its hype-years..]. x86 - Its a logic progression and evolution. 

This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the ARM pill – the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe [ARM as niche product, no Indie Dev, no bigger games, continous problems with firmware]. You take the x86 pill – you stay in Indie Wonderland , and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.

..Remember, all I'm offering is the truth – nothing more.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

The Pyra should stop the "nerd'n'geek" image that the pandora gets. We should produce a product with much more ablity to be mainsteam.

Then it would just be any like other mainstream device.  I bought the Pandora because it's geeky.  Yes I like geeky stuff.  Anything wrong with geeky devices?  Why are you trying to change that successful image?  You come here because you like geeky stuff to so stop bullshitting and being a hypocrite yourself.

 

[bzar]

commander-beef: Seriously? :blink:

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

 Why earn 100$ when you can earn 1000$. 

Because earning 100$ will make his company last 100 years, while earning 1000$ might make his company disappear in an instant.  More money more risk, it's business 101, simple

 

[God Ginrai]

Dont let some ideas fool You. Just it's niche product, it doesnt mean that it will stay niche. Why ED would like to make it niche when he could go globally ? Why earn 100$ when you can earn 1000$. Its business, its simple. Of course community is important, but community comes and goes [like You and Me]. [as you can see nobody here remembers gp32x.de from its hype-years..]. x86 - Its a logic progression and evolution.

How about the fact that he'll get his ass sued by Nintendo, Sega, Sony, etc. if he starts pumping out a mainstream device that advertises emulation as a big feature? Whether he has any legal argument to make or not, they have the money to run him into the ground, and will use it if he starts making noise.

no Indie Dev, no bigger games, continous problems with firmware

To quote Grench: "Irrational fear mongering". You have nothing to back any of those claims.

-God Ginrai

 

[commander-beef]

Im finding ED as an excellent strategist. I know he will choose ideal solution. 

 

[commander-beef]

@God 

If ED will pump-up pyra page with trademarks like 'Sega Saturn Emulation for the masses, Best Nintendo 64 Emulator here', he will likely be shoot down pretty easily, but if he starts to advertise 'general emulation of older systems' his butt is covered instantly. 

Actual Niny + Sony fighting with warez page lays on using trademark name [on warez sites] not emulation grounds. Thats why fandal needs to take down his awesome atari 8bit site [atari.fandal.cz] and rename it to [a8.fandal.cz] when Atari tries to kick fandal butt and sue him on trademark grounds.

 

[Red Ring Rico]

The real difference would be closed source games here, not OpenSource games.

Yeah. Why asking indie devs to port a game to Pyra [ARM], if we could go into Indie Dev Garden by switching to x86.

^ where is the fun in that..

Create problem [Pandora ARM = No Indie Dev's], and propose a solution [Pyra x86 = Homebrew / Indie Heaven]. ED You're brillant 

I'm curious if by an independent developers' heaven/garden you mean that they may port existing programs over to the Pyra or if you mean that the existing programs already written will just automatically be available because it's an x86-based machine?

 

[God Ginrai]

@God 

If ED will pump-up pyra page with trademarks like 'Sega Saturn Emulation for the masses, Best Nintendo 64 Emulator here', he will likely be shoot down pretty easily, but if he starts to advertise 'general emulation of older systems' his butt is covered instantly.

Oh yea, that's totally not what's happening now... <.<

Actual Niny + Sony fighting with warez page lays on using trademark name [on warez sites] not emulation grounds. Thats why fandal needs to take down his awesome atari 8bit site [atari.fandal.cz] and rename it to [a8.fandal.cz] when Atari tries to kick fandal butt and sue him on trademark grounds.

Oh really? The people from Bleemcast would beg to differ:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleemcast

Also, Nintendo is big against emulation right now, because they only want people using their licensed virtual console emulators packed w/ ROMs that they pay Nintendo for.

-God Ginrai

 

[_wb_]

I voted:

- Battery

- Open Source

- Don't care about arch

- Most important: battery

Battery life is one of the greatest features of the Pandora. It is what makes a ultra-portable mini-computer really ultra-portable. I don't mind if it has the potential to use a lot of power when the CPU/GPU are intensively used, but I want it to be really power-efficient at low to medium load (text editing, image editing, web browsing, things like that). So don't just look at the TDP, but compare the full perf/W curves.

I'm a big FOSS fan. I have been using GNU/Linux since 1997 and never looked back. I wouldn't be angry if e.g. the GPU driver would be a blob, but I would still consider it to be a disadvantage and I would be somewhat disappointed. I would be really happy if the Pyra would satisfy FSF's "Respects Your Freedom" requirements.

I don't care about ARM or x86 -- I don't code in assembler (at least not regularly), I don't care about binary-only software.

Overall, I think Snapdragon may be the best choice. It is the only available ARM SoC that does not use PowerVR, but Adreno, for which Freedreno exists. While I have no problem with x86 in itself, I think it's not wise to use a non-mature SoC -- I think it is too risky. In terms of power consumption, I assume (until someone can point me to more data) that all four considered SoCs are more or less comparable, so while I do think that battery life should be the top priority, I think the number two priority should be FOSS drivers, which gives an advantage to Snapdragon and Bay Trail.

 

[commander-beef]

We're not in 90s anymore. The law is not working like in wild west. Advertise emulation isnt the base to sue anyone but using Trademark  names is.. 

Who introduces emulation in mainstream consoles?. Of course Niny with NeoGeo Games in WiiChannel some time ago. 

Oh really? The people from Bleemcast would beg to differ:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleemcast

Also, Nintendo is big against emulation right now, because they only want people using their licensed virtual console emulators packed w/ ROMs that they pay Nintendo for.

-God Ginrai