Should The Pandora Become An Ubuntu Partner?

[PoisonedV]

QUOTE
it takes me about 2 minutes to make debian, or really any recent linux distro, look exactly like ubuntu

Wonderful. How long does it take for you to get that as a pre-install option on Dell machines? How long to develop a helpful community & Google-indexed wealth of information to help new users? Remember, communities where people get slapped down for not RTFM are not helpful for new non-technical users!

Ubuntu is not a great because it is optimised, memory efficient, or guaranteed more user friendly than any other distro out there. It is great because of the community and helpful, step-by-step instructions that have been developed around it. There is ALOT of redundant information in the instructions for doing something in Ubuntu, but for people not familiar with Linux (some haven't ever used a command prompt) - this is not a Bad Thing.

thank you for once again provoking my hatred of ubuntu* users.
tell me. is the pandora a dell pc?
are people on the pandora going to be encountering common x86 errors?
almost any of the previous information and documentation on ubuntu that would still apply to the pandora, would apply to most other similar linux distros out there, too, including its parent branch.
practicality not popularity

*fixed

 

[mali]

@PoisonedV

I don't understand your reaction. It was a level-headed reply. Where does that hate come from?

 

[salasq]

it takes me about 2 minutes to make debian, or really any recent linux distro, look exactly like ubuntu

Then you're not exactly Ubuntu's target audience, are you?

 

[moxie]

@PoisonedV

I don't understand your reaction. It was a level-headed reply. Where does that hate come from?

While I'm not PoisonedV, I'll hazard a guess: From the frustration of seeing loads and loads of hammer-merchants loudly proclaiming that their hammer is EXCELLENT for hammering in our nail, whilst in actual fact, the problem is not a nail at all - not even close. If any of the hammer salesmen stopped to take a small, small look at the actual problem, they could clearly see that for themselves, but instead they plug their ears, close their eyes and go "LALALALALAAAAAHAMMER YOUR NAIL WITH MY HAMMER! LALALALALAAAAA!"

Or something like that anyways.

BenT rather sarcastically explained to PoisonV why Ubuntu is so great: It has drivers for a lot of x86 hardware, it has loads of documentation on how to solve common installation problems on desktop PCs, it has a vibrant community that is always ready to answer questions from newbies, and it even comes as a pre-install option from Dell. Which is all well and good, but none of this is in the least relevant to the question whether Ubuntu is useful on the pandora or not! The pandora is not x86, it is an extremely homogenic piece of hardware across the user base (how many different keyboard drivers will you need? Display drivers? wireless? Bluetooth?), rendering the amount of drivers meaningless. It is not a desktop PC and any problems that any future user will encounter will be almost, but posibly not quite, completely unlike the problems that any "ordinary" computer user would encounter, rendering the absolute bulk of the existing instructions, tutorials and FAQs useless. There is noone in the community that has had a pandora before, so no matter how helpful and caring the community, it cannot provide help for other pandora users until a fairly long time has passed. And, as PI already noted, it does not come from Dell.

So, the whole post was uttery useless, except as an example of unthinkingly spouting propaganda by heart. BenT has an Ubuntu-hammer, and therefore he tells us in rather condescending tones why the OS problem is nail shaped. That is just noise.

This is, of course, not an argument for or against ubuntu on the pandora (which is, by now, a moot point anyway and always was). It is an explanation of why one can get rather irked at the acolytes of the church of Ubuntu. I have the same problem with Jehovahs witnesses and Hare Krishna

EDIT: PoisonedV, not -Ivy. Where'd that come from?

 

[dinglebery]

This is, of course, not an argument for or against ubuntu on the pandora (which is, by now, a moot point anyway and always was). It is an explanation of why one can get rather irked at the acolytes of the church of Ubuntu. I have the same problem with Jehovahs witnesses and Hare Krishna



exept i always rather enjoy playing with the door to door preacher crowd :> n there is just something about the whole my os' is six inches longer than your os ' internet thing that just drains you .. it never maters noone ever walks away doing anything other than wispering d**f**k at their monitor n going back to "thier" perfect os ...

shrug i just dont get it either .. and in the case of the pandora its moot, os's have already been decided and everyone can roll thier own if thier capeable.

 

[mali]

@Moxie
Thanks, that explains it

 

[BenTolputt]

I've replied to this thread twice now and there is still no posts showing. Let's try again....

PoisenedV:
I get the feeling you are deliberately missing the point. Nowhere in my post was I advocating for Ubuntu as the best distro for Pandora. I simply responded to your "missing the point" post. Ubuntu is not popular because of how it looks (though that is part of it). It is popular because it is easy get help on/for with most solutions a VERY quick Google-search away, with most instructions being easy for non-tech people to understand.

Moxie:
You are so far off base it's not funny. I was neither sarcastic (facetious maybe) nor stating that Ubuntu is the hammer for Pandora's nail (to use your metaphor). I was simply pointing out the very large hole in PoisenedV's argument - that being, it doesn't matter how quick HE can make his distro look like Ubuntu - it matters how well non-tech people can get a hold of assistance / instructions for accomplishing tasks not immediately obvious to non-Linux folks.

Also, if you want people to take you seriously, stop with the ad hominem attacks. I am no propagandist (I favour Windows, Ubuntu, & OpenBSD equally depending on need), and your list of personal adverbs (unthinking, condescending, sarcastically, etc) is not a way to win hearts and minds.

Anyone Still Reading:
Frankly, as has been stated previously by many people (including devs), if you have a problem with Ubuntu on the Pandora - you are going to have to get over it. The decision has been made to support it, the devs are looking at how they can be partners with Canonical for said support, and the likelihood of forum-posters being able to convince them out of it is small to none.

Simply put, Ubuntu currently works on Pandora and with Canonical's push for an official ARM port of the OS - the publicity OpenPandora can get (and use to sell more units) far outweigh's anyone's personal preferences.

For the record - posted on a Windows box after a day coding server systems in Erlang running on OpenBSD.

 

[PoisonedV]

The reason it's easy, in my perception and seemingly yours too, is that
1. there is very little configuration because it can adapt to varied systems easily
2. there is documentation for most of the situations that will arise.
while this proves to very good for a desktop, it doesn't make sense on the pandora- most documentation that would still apply to it at that point would also apply to most other linux/gnu systems- most of it already does ,anyawy.
and the configuration aspect is defeated by the fact that is one piece of hardware that will likely go through very few changes- having internet and USB connectivity by default, you would have no trouble installing drivers in the few instances you would need them for a webcam or ext device

 

[fordp]

As people point out what makes Ubuntu succesful on the desktop does not fully translate in to the MID as Intel would call it.

Ubuntu however are working hard in the MID and Nettop space with both Intel with Moblin and ARM in this area. That alone makes Ubuntu worthy of a port to Pandora.

Let those that are Wizards and can make any linux distribution do just as they please, go ahead and do just that!

I am sure Evil Dragon will give you some server space to post your efforts.

 

[vputz]

QUOTE
For the record - posted on a Windows box after a day coding server systems in Erlang running on OpenBSD.


Good man. Nice to see Erlang getting even more use (I think many of its ideas really represent an enticing future of programming languages).

Also agree with many of the points. I think becoming an Ubuntu partner would be a great crossover chance for the devs. They've made a niche device for hobbyists; while you can push that niche even further (Gentoo on Openpandora!) I think the device itself fills the niche very well. To increase userbase they can either try and pack more into that niche... or open it up, and if they want to open it up, then partnering with one of the best-known user-level Linux distributions is probably the best choice they could make.

 

[BenTolputt]

QUOTE
2. There is documentation for most of the situations that will arise.
While this proves to very good for a desktop, it doesn't make sense on the pandora- most documentation that would still apply to it at that point would also apply to most other linux/gnu systems- most of it already does, anyway.
Yes & no. SOME of the documentation (perhaps even half) applies to other distributions. I'd even go so far as to say MOST of the documentation could be used on other Debian-based distributions. However, applying the documentation to Suse &/or Fedora/Red Hat based systems is an exercise in frustration and generally futile.

Whilst the GNU tools/utilities are the same, the scripts & setup utilities for the distribution are not. I've lost count on the number of times I've had to go searching for the Suse equivalent of something I know the commands/flags for in Ubuntu (hell, even something as simple as installation is different: "yast2" vs "apt-get").
QUOTE
The configuration aspect is defeated by the fact that is one piece of hardware that will likely go through very few changes- having internet and USB connectivity by default, you would have no trouble installing drivers in the few instances you would need them for a webcam or ext device
On this, I agree with you. Technically, this benefit of Ubuntu does not apply to the Pandora. Pandora is a unique & uniform hardware setup that (at best) would simply need updates to the drivers rather than a wide range of drivers for different hardware.

On the other hand, the "technical" benefits of Ubuntu are not the best ones for the purposes of Pandora sales. Installing an appropriately slimmed down Ubuntu on the Pandora, combined with the publicity that Canonical can provide, have the potential for a much larger number of untis to be sold. This has benefits for OpenPandora longevity (more untis sold = more stable financial base for company), larger numbers of applications ported (either by Canonical themselves or developers attracted to Pandora via a Canonical-related advertisement/press release), and a greater chance of commercial game/application development projects going ahead (more Pandoras sold mean a greater market for these projects...).

Complaining that Ubuntu is not "technically" the best OS for the Pandora will not change the other benefits said partnership can bring. If you want to address the reality of the situation, find an alternative partner for OpenPandora that can bring similar benefits.

OpenPandora is not Linux / Free Software - the main developers behind it (Craigix, EvilDragon, etc) actually do care about the adoption rate and the financial incentives thereof.

 

[PoisonedV]

I never said it wasn't an ideal business choice. I said it makes no sense in practical usage

 

[Phawx]

I think the problem with your logic is the chicken or the egg, PoisonedV.

TI and Canonical are making a push for netbooks with ARM. Pandora is in a prime position to be marketed as a sub-netbook. Canonical has already stated with 9.04 that they will be doing an ARM version as well, which should be hopefully around the time the second wave of Pandora's will go on sale.

The Ubuntu community will see the Pandora and because it will have a very specific set of hardware, drivers will be a non-issue. So the problems that could arise will be a lot less. Partnering would be a very smart decision for practical and business purposes. Maybe not practical right now, but by the time 9.04 is out it will be.

 

[som99]

I Vote yes, this would be a good way to promote Pandora.

 

[likwidoxigen]

thank you for once again provoking my hatred of ubuntu* users.

Oh come on now, you were an Ubuntu user till at least Feb/08, don't go all harshing on it now!

But really Ubuntu has a sheet-ton of resources to be able to throw at the ARM issue. That works out great for everyone. That's the compelling reason to become an Ubuntu partner.

 

[jellmoo]

From a business/PR standpoint, it makes a great deal of sense. Ubuntu is extremely popular, and is almost synonymous with Linux/GNU for a lot of people. I think teaming with Ubuntu would really help push Pandora forward.

From a usability standpoint, I think it's a moot point. Ubuntu is popular because of it's ease of use, and the fact that it is very "newbie friendly". Drivers are readily available, peripherals are configured for you, codecs are simple to find.

Pandora, however, has one set of hardware. It also has a strong community to help out. The main advantages of Ubuntu are pretty much not needed for Pandora.

Now this doesn't mean that Ubuntu on Pandora is a bad thing, not at all. It just means that Ubuntu, as is, is slightly redundant. A great product could be put together and be super amazing. However, it wouldn't be Ubuntu as we know it now. It would be more akin to being part of the "Ubuntu brand".

 

[Svartalf]

But really Ubuntu has a sheet-ton of resources to be able to throw at the ARM issue. That works out great for everyone. That's the compelling reason to become an Ubuntu partner.

What "ARM issue"? Seriously.

I'm grinding out ARM stuff quite nicely- all I have right at the moment is a single Q9550 with 4Gb of 1066 memory running right at the moment to crank it out. A full distribution (the same one that is being used to demo all the cool stuff on the Beagleboard, btb...) of Angstrom in roughly four hours for x86. It's a similar timeframe for ARM Cortex-A8. This isn't rocket science- and with the right muscle and bandwidth available it's not time consuming either.

 

[hch]

Ubuntu is popular because of it's ease of use, and the fact that it is very "newbie friendly". Drivers are readily available, peripherals are configured for you, codecs are simple to find.

Pandora, however, has one set of hardware. It also has a strong community to help out. The main advantages of Ubuntu are pretty much not needed for Pandora.

i really don't understand this kind of argument. i personally couldn't care less about usability and newbie-friendlyness. the one thing that counts and that angstrom just doensn't have is the apt-repositories ubuntu inherited from debian. the moment you show me that everything in ubuntus repos is available for angstrom i will stop cheering for ubuntu.

 

[likwidoxigen]

What "ARM issue"? Seriously.

I'm grinding out ARM stuff quite nicely-

The "ARM issue" would be the fact that it's largely a new architecture for mainstream developers. In order for this to be a real "netbook" like device it should have the same feel/packages as a full blown linux distro. Be it fedora, ubuntu, suse, or whatever. There are a fair few libraries and apps that have issues being ported over. Mostly they're small things but someone or some entity NEEDS to document and MAINTAIN these changes in future versions for the sake of compatabilty.

It's great that you've just gotten into the whole OE/Bitbake/MTN/Angstrom scene and are building what's already been done before... But really, which apps have you ACTUALLY ported over? Which libraries?

It's one thing to develop a new arm application, it's another to port over an x86 one then dedicate your time to maintaining the patches.

 

[Tor]

What's ARM got to do with anything, when you really get down to it? What matters for an application is the UI, the screen size, touch display support etc. As far as ARM is concerned you should only have to worry about 1) Kernel support for your ARM architecture, and 2) If GCC has support/optimization for said architecture.