Screens Of The Future

[skyeyemachine]

Hello all,

I was recently reading some articles about upcoming next-gen screen designs, and some of the upcoming technologies seem very exciting. For example, I am very much interested in the 3Qi screen technology and others like it, which seem to be finally uniting the strengths of E-Ink and LCD screens - the 3Qi in particular having both a low-power ambient light mode and an LCD backlit mode. And if they aren't already, I have little doubt that such screens will incorporate at least basic touch functionality. Hence, my questions boil down to these:

+ Will it be possible, assuming screens of appropriate dimensions become available, to install one of these newer screens on a Pandora?

+ How difficult might that process be, if it is?

+ What would the limitations potentially be, if any? Would swapping the screens out mean a trade-off in touch input, or impose problems in controlling the screen?

+ And this one's for the OP team: If/when you decide to produce a Pandora 2 down the line, I imagine screens like these would be ideal candidates for such a design, would they not?

If anyone can shed a light on these questions, that would be great. Otherwise, consider this a link to some rather enticing-looking technologies that are worth a look. Something to distract us 'till Monday, perhaps.

 

[kingoddball]

You would need the same pinout, same ribbon cable, modify the kernel, software AND hardware to understand the new screen..

It would not be impossible.... Impractical, maybe.

 

[trix]

You would need the same pinout, same ribbon cable, modify the kernel, software AND hardware to understand the new screen..

It would not be impossible.... Impractical, maybe.

I disagree, it wouldn't be that bad. The pinout and ribbon cable is not so unstandard as to make it overly difficult to adapt. As for the kernel, I'm sure kernel support for those screens would be added rather quickly in SOME distro or another, and the work could be patched into the Pandora's kernel. As for the software, I believe it should just send the signal to the screen like any other, at the appropriate resolution refresh rates sync rates and color depth. If the kernel and drivers support the screen (and it's ambient light features) the software wouldn't have to.

I am not very hands-on with this stuff though, so if someone smarter wishes to correct me please do!

- trix

 

[skyeyemachine]

You would need the same pinout, same ribbon cable, modify the kernel, software AND hardware to understand the new screen..

It would not be impossible.... Impractical, maybe.

Thanks for the reply kingoddball. I suspected I'd get an answer like that; somewhat disappointing. Although I never did have any real complaints regarding the original screen, I must admit I am tempted by the idea of reducing the Pandora's energy consumption to almost 1/5th of what it otherwise would be when I don't need a backlight. If this tech had been around a little earlier, the Pandora could have perhaps reached a peak battery life of over 20 hours with such a screen run in the low-power mode, perhaps (although that's a very crude estimate, mind you!). Ahh well...

@ Trix: Just saw your post. I do hope you're right! The Pandora's long-lived running time is one of the best features of the device in relation to everything else it can do. Since the screen is the worst offender, if there's some way to dramatically improve the efficiency of that component, I'm rather interested in those possibilities. I intend to keep my Pandora around for a long time, after all, at least until its descendant comes out!

 

[kingoddball]

I'm sure you can turn off the backlight with software?

As for power concerns - You COULD just always get an 18,000mah (DC plug) battery - I'm sure what could help the Pandora last about.... 50 hours? (10 hours on original battery and 4x on the DC battery).. Never sleep again!

 

[skyeyemachine]

I'm sure you can turn off the backlight with software?

As for power concerns - You COULD just always get an 18,000mah (DC plug) battery - I'm sure what could help the Pandora last about.... 50 hours? (10 hours on original battery and 4x on the DC battery).. Never sleep again!

Bah - sleep is for the weak! But while I'm sure that's true regarding software control, I'm planning to be outdoors a lot with the Pandora, so killing the backlight doesn't help me deal with sunlight, sadly. Improved outdoor visibility is very desirable to me.

And yes, larger batteries are definitely another option. However, I'd rather use less power to more effect where I can, and since I plan to use the Pandora for much e-reading, the e-ink-ish resolution of the 3Qi screens is also very attractive to me on top of its other benefits. Basically, aside from potential installation and compatibility problems, these newer screen technologies seem like dramatic improvements over what is currently implemented, hence I'm curious to know how large those installation and compatibility issues might be, should opportunity knock.

 

[kingoddball]

Oh!

OK! I follow. Sorry! I actually plan on using mine for similar purposes. Not sure what e-ink (ish) is.

But eBooks (used to use iPhone), Yes! (I'm going to get rid of my iPhone soon. POS! I'll probably get a Google Nexus One [ANYONE got one? Thoughts?])

Are the screen's radically different? Esp outdoors without a backlight?
I've never really seen any decent (COLOUR!) screen's what work well outdoors in (direct or not) sunlight without being back lit.

 

[wardred]

E-ink is radically different than an LCD or OLED screen. The most common form found in the Kindle and Nook are almost exactly what it sounds like - electronic ink. Very small plastic balls coated on one side with black ink, the other bare white plastic. What you end up looking at is much closer to a book with printed ink than a computer screen. There is no back light. The current state of the art is simply gray scale, the refresh rate is very slow. The advantage is that it's VERY easy on the eyes, can be read in everything but extremely low light including bright and direct sunlight, and uses no energy except when the screen needs to be refreshed. Great for books or magazines with lots of text.

There are other technologies out there. Hybrid stuff like the OLPC screen which has a relatively low color LCD, but when you turn the brightness setting all the way down it becomes reflective instead of a backlit. I think that still takes energy, but a miserly amount of it - kinda like the energy it takes to run a large, high res scientific calculator screen. I wish more modern laptops would look at what the OLPC does to save energy and try to emulate it. We're getting there with automatic CPU frequencies, 2d/3d video cards - the 3d portion only being used if you're actually doing something that needs the acceleration, etc.

e-ink wouldn't be a good choice for the pandora as it would make it nothing more than a book viewer - the refresh rate is VERY slow. But I could see a brighter oled screen in the future, or if battery life or using it in bright sunlight is important to you, some sort of hybrid backlit/reflective screen. The big thing would be getting it in the same size with at least a similar pin out and similar commands for screen brightness, powered down, etc. Like a previous poster said, possible, but probably not practical.

Cheers!

Edit: clarified a sentence.

 

[skyeyemachine]

...e-ink wouldn't be a good choice for the pandora as it would make it nothing more than a book viewer - the refresh rate is VERY slow. But I could see a brighter oled screen in the future, or if battery life or using it in bright sunlight is important to you, some sort of hybrid backlit/reflective screen. The big thing would be getting it in the same size with at least a similar pin out and similar commands for screen brightness, powered down, etc. Like a previous poster said, possible, but probably not practical.

Yes, I've heard the same things, although I've not ever used an e-ink device myself so I can't speak from experience. The technology that sparked my questions, 3Qi, is detailed here:

http://www.pixelqi.com/

And there are apparently other competitors coming out with their own rival technologies in the very near future. Basically the 3Qi screen is not much different from a common LCD in principle, if I understand right; it has a backlight and uses the same imaging techniques. What makes 3Qi special, however, is that the pixels have a reflective coating buried in them somehow, so when you cull the brightness in sunlit (or similar) settings, the ambient light enhances rather than overpowers the screen image. And it has the same refresh rate, while using only approx. 1/5th the power, as I mention above. I think their product page also mentions that the image resolution is substantially better when in reflective mode, too, which is what makes it a rival for current e-ink technology. Suffice to say I find this development rather exciting, let alone in the context of the Pandora. And if they can get touch input working, then there's no obvious disadvantage to them compared to the current Pandora screen, other than the obvious installation-issues of cost, time, effort, and potential damage to the Pandora (which all together may prove prohibitive, I will grant!).

This assumes they ever produce screens of the appropriate size, of course, but this tech seems destined to soar compared to current-gen contenders, so I think appropriate screens will crop up eventually.

 

[wardred]

Yep, that's what was used in OLPC. http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/23/olpc-graduate-pixel-qi-announces-3qi-three-in-one-screen-will-de/ It sounds like they're further refining the product, and if it has a true "no power" mode without degrading the other modes, I think it *COULD* be huge.

Edit: Even if the "low power" mode is truly low power enough it could be huge. If they get their reflective technology to work in color outside, that's HUGE, especially with the potential refresh rates. Heck, if they can make a high quality HDTV that doesn't take 100w to run, that alone qualifies for the *huge* in my book. 'Course, weather or not they get people to use it or if it lives up to its potential...we'll just have to see.

Edit 2: You'd still have the same issue using this screen as any other non-Pandora screen. It would need to be made to fit the dimensions of the Pandora, have a similar pin-out, and the Pandora would have to know how to switch between modes on this screen. Still, if you found one that matched all this criteria, it'd be a cool DIY project.

 

[fischju2000]

Hands-on with the 3Qi screen say that in transmissive mode, operating as a regular LCD, the colors are a bit washed out. And the contrast in e-ink mode isn't as good as the Kindle. So it's pretty good at both, but sounds like a step down in terms of image quality (unless you are outside a lot). As a gaming device, and with most portable performance devices going with them, AMOLED may be a better choice. The image quality in normal lighting would completely blow the 3Qis out of the water.

 

[skyeyemachine]

Yep, that's what was used in OLPC. http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/23/olpc-graduate-pixel-qi-announces-3qi-three-in-one-screen-will-de/ It sounds like they're further refining the product, and if it has a true "no power" mode without degrading the other modes, I think it *COULD* be huge.

Edit: Even if the "low power" mode is truly low power enough it could be huge. If they get their reflective technology to work in color outside, that's HUGE, especially with the potential refresh rates. Heck, if they can make a high quality HDTV that doesn't take 100w to run, that alone qualifies for the *huge* in my book. 'Course, weather or not they get people to use it or if it lives up to its potential...we'll just have to see.

Edit 2: You'd still have the same issue using this screen as any other non-Pandora screen. It would need to be made to fit the dimensions of the Pandora, have a similar pin-out, and the Pandora would have to know how to switch between modes on this screen. Still, if you found one that matched all this criteria, it'd be a cool DIY project.

They're working on 10 watt HDTVs or something right now, or so I understand. Or at least considering an application like that. It is confirmed that the tech I linked works very well outside and in brightly lit rooms with properly saturated colors and the ability to play video happily, although I'll need to do some reading through your link before I can say much on it, or whether it's the same. One of the critical points of this particular product is that it can be made with current LCD fabrication techniques, meaning extremely cheap and rapid implementation. They've just begun their first production run, apparently.

 

[skyeyemachine]

Hands-on with the 3Qi screen say that in transmissive mode, operating as a regular LCD, the colors are a bit washed out. And the contrast in e-ink mode isn't as good as the Kindle. So it's pretty good at both, but sounds like a step down in terms of image quality (unless you are outside a lot). As a gaming device, and with most portable performance devices going with them, AMOLED may be a better choice. The image quality in normal lighting would completely blow the 3Qis out of the water.

Hmm. I have to say I'm not terribly knowledgeable when it comes to screen technologies; I'll have to look into that one. That said, it is basically being marketed as the crossroads between e-ink and standard LCDs, so it'd make sense if it suffers a little for being a generalist. There may well be better alternatives out there, depending on your particular usage requirements. Again, I want the Pandora as much for its UMPC qualities as for gaming, if not more so, hence better readability outside and easier ebook reading are things that may be less important to most. I think I'm the sort who would prefer some loss of specialization if it meant I got a more well-rounded function set in exchange, but then again, I haven't even been able to play around with the Pandora's default screen, let alone these fancy new ones.

 

[fischju2000]

http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/08/samsungs-first-super-amoled-phone-to-debut-next-week/ - If hobbyists or even OP could get their hands on this for a Pandora mod or Pandora 2, the screen quality might be too good, so no other device's display ever looks the same.

 

[WoD]

E-Ink will come and go. However. Whilst we're wasting perfectly good time developing the methods to emulate such archaic and quaint technology as physical print, who's up for a laser fountain pen?

By the time a Pandora 2 is in the works, I'd sincerely hope that we've given up on crap like E-Ink and OLED (the latter being particularly bad if only because it gets so thoroughly abused) and actually made some progress in display technologies for a change.

Just imagining E-ink being used for the display of a terminal makes me shudder, running Top would trigger epilepsy!

We've had daylight viewable transflective screens for years. Pixel Qi's 3QI is an evolutionary display, not a revolutionary one and they seem dead set on marketing it to the irrelevant, stop-gap netbook market, meaning they'll probably stick with horrible 1024*600 pixel displays until it proves its worth in that category- which is going to be tough, as turning a profit in the netbook market is like trying to turn the earth in reverse with nothing but the enthusiastic peddling of a unicycle.

I, for one, only use my technology in candle-lit basements, or cars in the early morning or late afternoon. I fear the day when technology is so convenient and prevalent that I'm never forced to take a break from it. 14-17 hours in front of a computer a day is probably enough. And I'd wager from the fact my growing man-breasts will soon render my netbook useless through total screen eclipse that it's not just my eyes that are taking a hit.

 

[fischju2000]

Giving up on OLED/AMOLED? Here is that new Samsung Super AMOLED screen next to an iPhone. 3.3" 800x480

http://blog.gsmarena.com/so-you-think-your-iphone-has-a-killer-screen-check-this-out/

You can't say this tech wouldn't be a great match for the Pandora's performance needs.

 

[Pleng]

Sorry which one is which?

It's pretty hard to compare as one has a pastel blue background and another a dark black. I'd say the device on the right seems to have slightly clearer definition, but that could be because it looks like it's brightness has been set way down. The colours on the left hand side seem a lot more vibrant; the one on the right looks kind of washed out.

 

[SNESFAN]

Sorry which one is which?

It's pretty hard to compare as one has a pastel blue background and another a dark black. I'd say the device on the right seems to have slightly clearer definition, but that could be because it looks like it's brightness has been set way down. The colours on the left hand side seem a lot more vibrant; the one on the right looks kind of washed out.

right=iphone OLED
left=samsung AMOLED

the point they are making is viewing angle + true black is better on AMOLED... that's why the iphone looks so funky

 

[laurencevde]

The Iphone(right one) has an LCD-screen, and the background is supposed to be black...

(AM)OLED is simply better than LCD, just still more expensive to produce. Black pixels don't give any light, colors are better, no ghosting, lower power usage, better viewing angles.

 

[Awakening]

I'm definitely hoping for an AMOLED screen on Pandora 2. 1024 x 600 resolution would also be nice These screens will only become cheaper and more common every year.