Refund Question

[TaG]

Disclaimer first: My opinion is biased as I am in the UK, bought in GBP, expect to get refunded in GBP and re-order in GB. There should be no currency loss or transaction charges.

Depending on how this really works out, some may lose and some may gain. I know the world isn't fair. I know we got a RAM upgrade for free. But Karel does have a point here. And not everybody understands how the currency affects them. What happened to this post:

I know the exchange rates are a mess at the moment, but we will try to make it whatever you paid last time you will pay this time and any slight mismatch we hope will be made up by the fact you have 256MB + 512MB (and that's coming out of our pocket).

With European pre-orders refunds going through now, people are going to need to know soon.

I do accept Trevor's point too. But it is also not the customers fault. So I guess it all boils down to how it works and how big the losses and gains are.

It could be messy...

 

[gaterooze]

In the Pandora Status Update thread someone already stated that they lost a substantial amount of money in the reordering process, so it's not as if this is some paranoid fantasy.

Has this been confirmed, or is it still speculation? If the refunds are made @ 200GBP then it won't make much difference, but if they are made @ the currency you originally paid in, then yes. Which is it?

 

[TrevorBradley]

In the Pandora Status Update thread someone already stated that they lost a substantial amount of money in the reordering process, so it's not as if this is some paranoid fantasy.

Has this been confirmed, or is it still speculation? If the refunds are made @ 200GBP then it won't make much difference, but if they are made @ the currency you originally paid in, then yes. Which is it?


Depends on a few more things. If the refund is made at the exchange rate on the day you paid at, then repaid at todays exchange rate, it could be sizable. That would work out at a net profit for most of us, as the GBP has dropped like a stone this past month.

Also, credit card compaines usually take a chunk out of currency conversion both ways. You could be looking at a net cost of 5% of the Pandora or more for refund and re-order, even if you did it at the same instant and the currency rates were the same.

It all depends on the nitty gritty of the refunds.

 

[socket]

Karel, I didn't mean to sound harsh... I understand your concern, but you currently don't know if you will take a significant hit in some kind of exchange rate. As GunPei2X pointed out:
QUOTE
If the refunds are made @ 200GBP then it won't make much difference, but if they are made @ the currency you originally paid in, then yes. Which is it?
I'm hoping that the exchange rate happened when we paid and the refund will be at the current 200GBP conversion... In which case we only lose fees from the bank for the conversion, and nothing due to changed exchange rates. Because if you would get 200GBP at TODAY's rate, you will be reordering soonafter and would not be affected by a new exchange.

 

[PolloLoco]

By Karel Jansen's reasoning, its not fair that I had to pay $30 at an internet cafe in my hotel in Beijing in order to get my preorder in as soon as it was released - ONLY because the preorder was pushed back just as I left on an Asian holiday. Its not fair that due to this change in schedule, others got to order from the comfort of their homes while I had to pay through the nose for internet access in China! If we are going to be a community, I demand that this community share in my $30 loss purely in the interests of fairness.

While those affected by this banking mess can choose not to buy back into the Pandora program and might only face transaction fees, I'm out $30 regardless. :-(

 

[mali]

By Karel Jansen's reasoning, its not fair that I had to pay $30 at an internet cafe in my hotel in Beijing in order to get my preorder in as soon as it was released - ONLY because the preorder was pushed back just as I left on an Asian holiday. Its not fair that due to this change in schedule, others got to order from the comfort of their homes while I had to pay through the nose for internet access in China! If we are going to be a community, I demand that this community share in my $30 loss purely in the interests of fairness.

That is complete nonsense IMO

 

[PolloLoco]

By Karel Jansen's reasoning, its not fair that I had to pay $30 at an internet cafe in my hotel in Beijing in order to get my preorder in as soon as it was released - ONLY because the preorder was pushed back just as I left on an Asian holiday. Its not fair that due to this change in schedule, others got to order from the comfort of their homes while I had to pay through the nose for internet access in China! If we are going to be a community, I demand that this community share in my $30 loss purely in the interests of fairness.

That is complete nonsense IMO


Yes, it was meant to be - just as Karel Jansen's post was . Though I did spend that $30. ;-)

The fact that this is an international community inherently means that discrepancies in the Pandora experience are going to be inherent and not shared. To some people the Pandora purchase price will be a greater percentage of their income. Some people will get their Pandora faster than others. Some will pay more shipping. Some will get less native language support. Some will have no access to certain capabilities (wifi access). Life's not fair. Does that make the policies unfair? Not in my opinion.

 

[Karel Jansens]

In the Pandora Status Update thread someone already stated that they lost a substantial amount of money in the reordering process, so it's not as if this is some paranoid fantasy.

Has this been confirmed, or is it still speculation? If the refunds are made @ 200GBP then it won't make much difference, but if they are made @ the currency you originally paid in, then yes. Which is it?


http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showt...096&st=200#

Goto post #208. For some reason it won't let me copypaste the correct post.

 

[socket]

In the Pandora Status Update thread someone already stated that they lost a substantial amount of money in the reordering process, so it's not as if this is some paranoid fantasy.

Has this been confirmed, or is it still speculation? If the refunds are made @ 200GBP then it won't make much difference, but if they are made @ the currency you originally paid in, then yes. Which is it?


http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showt...096&st=200#

Goto post #208. For some reason it won't let me copypaste the correct post.


As I said in that thread, I don't think he got the refund yet, just the email.... So it sounds like he's worrying before knowing what will really happen.

Sure I'm also speculating here, but I wanted to point out that if he gets the refund at the current exchange rate then there's really no big difference in what he'll pay.

 

[gaterooze]

Right, the chap at post #208 didn't know either, since the refund hadn't happened for him yet. We need someone directly affected by currency conversion to confirm how it will work...

 

[TaG]

You may be interested in this...

Got the mail on Tuesday but no refund yet.
I'm from Spain and people here are reporting that succesful refunds were made on actual exchange rates, so they will loose about 12 pounds if they don't reorder.
By that I take it you mean at current rates, therefore if they re-order 'straight away' there will be no gain or loss. So we need a credit card link soon...

@Homo Mechanicus - any chance of a decent quote / translation as there are no such details here yet?

 

[CoMiKe]

And interested also in this:
http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showt...id=671316&#

 

[doragasu]

I made a payment of 292,94€ when I placed my order and I have received the refund, I got 267,51€ back. Now I want to reorder. If the reorder costs me 267,51€, I'll have no complaints about this, but if I will have to pay again the full 292,94€, I'll feel swindled, even if I am not.

I Know they are not doing this on purpose, and I know the currency fluctuations are not their fault, but this kind of things are dangerous because they get people angry and can generate bad publicity to the project.

And replys like "Hey, if you don't like it, just take your money with you and leave place to other one really interested in the project" are the worst replys the team can give to us. Bad publicity spreads extremely fast in the Internet, and can ruin projects like this.

 

[Karel Jansens]

So my refund came in today and, at today's rates and not accounting for currency conversion commissions, I'm up 5 pounds (Which is a lot less than it sounds ).

Still, I don't feel happy about it; there are people who are going to lose money in this process and they shouldn't. I wonder -- if we're decided that we are a community -- if there might be a fair way to even things out. E.g. I'm more than prepared to reorder with the exact amount I got refunded, which would put an extra fiver in OpenPandora's account, money that could be used to reimburse those who lost.

Is this a doable proposal or way too communist thinking? (and, incidentally, being a libertarian capitalist, that would surprize me to no end)

 

[PolloLoco]

So my refund came in today and, at today's rates and not accounting for currency conversion commissions, I'm up 5 pounds (Which is a lot less than it sounds ).

Still, I don't feel happy about it; there are people who are going to lose money in this process and they shouldn't. I wonder -- if we're decided that we are a community -- if there might be a fair way to even things out. E.g. I'm more than prepared to reorder with the exact amount I got refunded, which would put an extra fiver in OpenPandora's account, money that could be used to reimburse those who lost.

Is this a doable proposal or way too communist thinking? (and, incidentally, being a libertarian capitalist, that would surprize me to no end)

Do you also propose that certain Pandora shipments to closer regions be delayed so everyone gets there's at precisely the right time? Should Pandora be delayed until full language support can be provided to everyone who ordered? How about an adjustment for per capita income for each nation?

Yes, it seems communist to me to require Pandora to bear the brunt of international value fluctuations. Most of those who ordered would have just had that money sitting in the bank - and experienced the same international depreciation. And for my perspective, I'm a liberal thinker - heading off to do my regular volunteer work with kids in the ghetto. While I'm defiitely not socialist, I do think the government should have a role in fixing inequalities.

BTW Karel, I saw the thread where you were complaining about how much money you were going to lose - until someone else pointed out that you'd probably make a profit. I believe you've changed your topic of complaint so you don't look so bad. So I suggest thinking first before getting on your soapbox next time.

 

[TaG]

I made a payment of 292,94€ when I placed my order and I have received the refund, I got 267,51€ back. Now I want to reorder. If the reorder costs me 267,51€, I'll have no complaints about this, but if I will have to pay again the full 292,94€, I'll feel swindled, even if I am not.

I'm more than prepared to reorder with the exact amount I got refunded, which would put an extra fiver in OpenPandora's account, money that could be used to reimburse those who lost.

In the multitude of other threads people are suggesting they are re-ordering with the amount they got refunded, therefore, excluding commissions, there are no real loses or gains.
Remember that when you paid it was equivalent to a GBP amount, say £200. They have refunded £200, it just has a different value in your currency copared to the day you ordered. If you send the same amount back, unless it changes in the time taken, they will get £200 back. Openpandora would not be up £5 (or whatever amount).

 

[Karel Jansens]

So my refund came in today and, at today's rates and not accounting for currency conversion commissions, I'm up 5 pounds (Which is a lot less than it sounds ).

Still, I don't feel happy about it; there are people who are going to lose money in this process and they shouldn't. I wonder -- if we're decided that we are a community -- if there might be a fair way to even things out. E.g. I'm more than prepared to reorder with the exact amount I got refunded, which would put an extra fiver in OpenPandora's account, money that could be used to reimburse those who lost.

Is this a doable proposal or way too communist thinking? (and, incidentally, being a libertarian capitalist, that would surprize me to no end)

Do you also propose that certain Pandora shipments to closer regions be delayed so everyone gets there's at precisely the right time? Should Pandora be delayed until full language support can be provided to everyone who ordered? How about an adjustment for per capita income for each nation?


These are all conditions that were known (or at the very best knowable) at the time of purchase. The refunding issue was not.

But you knew that, didn't you?

QUOTE
Yes, it seems communist to me to require Pandora to bear the brunt of international value fluctuations. Most of those who ordered would have just had that money sitting in the bank - and experienced the same international depreciation. And for my perspective, I'm a liberal thinker - heading off to do my regular volunteer work with kids in the ghetto. While I'm defiitely not socialist, I do think the government should have a role in fixing inequalities.


Save from wasting over 50% of my money every year, I see no role whatsoever for a government. And I didn't say OpenPandora should bear the grunt; I said that, if this is a true community, the members of that community might help each other out. You know, voluntarily. Without any gubberment to enforce "ethics" upon them.

QUOTE
BTW Karel, I saw the thread where you were complaining about how much money you were going to lose - until someone else pointed out that you'd probably make a profit. I believe you've changed your topic of complaint so you don't look so bad. So I suggest thinking first before getting on your soapbox next time.


Nastier and nastier; I never complained. And this insinuation of yours tells me more about you than you might think. Bye.

In the multitude of other threads people are suggesting they are re-ordering with the amount they got refunded, therefore, excluding commissions, there are no real loses or gains.
Remember that when you paid it was equivalent to a GBP amount, say £200. They have refunded £200, it just has a different value in your currency copared to the day you ordered. If you send the same amount back, unless it changes in the time taken, they will get £200 back. Openpandora would not be up £5 (or whatever amount).

Nevertheless, using today's exchange rates and ignoring any additional costs, the money they sent back gets me GBP 5 more. It's possible that the pound is still in freefall against the euro (I don't really follow these things), but that would also mean that for some people the inverse might be true.

I didn't like this when I thought I was going to lose money and, regarless of what some numbnuts might claim, I don't like it when I'm in the profit camp either. Nobody should win or lose on this deal.

 

[TaG]

In the multitude of other threads people are suggesting they are re-ordering with the amount they got refunded, therefore, excluding commissions, there are no real loses or gains.
Remember that when you paid it was equivalent to a GBP amount, say £200. They have refunded £200, it just has a different value in your currency copared to the day you ordered. If you send the same amount back, unless it changes in the time taken, they will get £200 back. Openpandora would not be up £5 (or whatever amount).
Nevertheless, using today's exchange rates and ignoring any additional costs, the money they sent back gets me GBP 5 more. It's possible that the pound is still in freefall against the euro (I don't really follow these things), but that would also mean that for some people the inverse might be true.

I didn't like this when I thought I was going to lose money and, regarless of what some numbnuts might claim, I don't like it when I'm in the profit camp either. Nobody should win or lose on this deal.
Yes, technically you are now £5 up - but you will send that same amount back, unless there is a movement between now and when you re-order. Which is why, as I said somewhere else, we need the credit card re-ordering link up soon so that there is minimal room for complaint, and nobody does win or lose except for commissions, but in return for that the RAM increase is thrown in as a sweetner.

 

[MaxSteiner]

Hmmm, but with this delay in CC orders being up and running, people will lose out wont they?
The money they refund is correct at the time of refunds, but in say 20 days when CC reording is up (a figure plucked from my ass), the currancy will have changed quite a bit, paying the amount refunded wont be enough by that point will it?

To be honest its all subjective though, since the amount people pay IS still £200

 

[Karel Jansens]

Yes, technically you are now £5 up - but you will send that same amount back, unless there is a movement between now and when you re-order. Which is why, as I said somewhere else, we need the credit card re-ordering link up soon so that there is minimal room for complaint, and nobody does win or lose except for commissions, but in return for that the RAM increase is thrown in as a sweetner.

No, I received EUR 258.18 on my credit card (I was wrong about the next balance being in december; the online balance is pretty up to date, albeit cunningly hidden by my bank) which, at today's exchange rates, amounts to GBP 218.12. I only need GBP 213.99 for the reorder (that's including the Dreaded VAT), so I'm up more than GBP 5.

And again, the RAM and NAND increase may be presented as a sweetener, but for some it comes for free, for others (like me) it comes with a slight discount and others again are actually paying for it (the fact that the money they pay doesn't go to OpenPandora is rather irrelevant to the customer).