Put Us Out Of Our Misery!


What kind of argument is that? It's not gonna change anything so you might as well not criticize them?
 
torpor said:
Nobody is saying "don't be critical" and attempting to censor peoples ideas and thoughts about the product, but if you're going to position your point of view as being "more productive than the view of Craigix and co.", then you will be wrong: as far as I know, Craigix and co., are the only ones who have gotten us this far. The core OpenPandora group are really a Team, and this Team has managed to deliver great results so far, in spite of countless setbacks and costs.
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To be fair - as a customer who paid nearly a year and a half ago they have delivered absolutely zero results so far. I have absolutely the same thing in my hands as I had day-1 of pre-orders when they took my money. This isn't a charity - it's not like they deserve praise for "getting us this far". They took our money and have an obligation to deliver a product in return. Maybe some of you saw the fact they were going to be a year and a half late coming or knew that they were complete amateurs who were going to be in way over their head - but I didn't. I saw a story posted on Engadget (I think) about the product that looked really neat and had a firm date they were starting pre-orders and a set shipping date a couple months after that (or so I thought). I paid my money before I had time to do a ton of research because I saw that the pre-order numbers were limited and decided to throw caution in wind and try to ensure I got one. I had no idea they weren't even remotely near to even having prototypes at that point - I just knew that it had what seemed like good specs and it was going on sale. It was partially my fault for paying for something without doing enough research - but they sure as heck didn't make an effort to make it clear on the page taking my money that 'hey - we're a bunch of novices developing this thing and our ship date is just a very loose guess we pulled out of thin air'.
 
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1

Lets face it, whatever you say,its been a far too long time coming,and the whole process as been a fiasco.Respect to kyosys for having the balls to say what he has and not bowing down to the pandora fanboys on here,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
 
torpor said:
Whats the point of being critical of the Openpandora team at this point in the game? The answer: there IS NO POINT, because no amount of criticism is going to actually result in anyone learning anything, or in the product coming out faster. The only possible reason one could have for delving into the rights and wrongs of this project at this point in the game is to make oneself feel more righteous about how things are being managed - but it won't change the end product one single bit. The fact is, there is a physical universe out there, and until all the management of this universe is done by brainwaves alone, no amount of flaffle and huffaw is going to change the fact that the work *is being done* and there is *still work to be done, yet*.

Statistically, we've seen a lot of progress, and a lot of delays and a lot of missed opportunities to get it out faster - but none of that is relevant *right now* because we've gotten as far as we have under the guidance of the team we have so far - love him or hate him, Craigix has managed to get this whole thing happening and even though its been a struggle, we are where we are today because he put up the money, time, and effort to get this all happening.

Nobody is saying "don't be critical" and attempting to censor peoples ideas and thoughts about the product, but if you're going to position your point of view as being "more productive than the view of Craigix and co.", then you will be wrong: as far as I know, Craigix and co., are the only ones who have gotten us this far. The core OpenPandora group are really a Team, and this Team has managed to deliver great results so far, in spite of countless setbacks and costs.
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You might want to wipe that brown off your nose.

Every forum is about pointless or near pointless discussions and it burns people's time up that they could do with elsewhere. When we are all in our 90's, we'll regret using up that exhaustible time discussing who's right or wrong in the development of this project, but that doesn't mean we ignore it today or sweep it under the rug because it is uncomfortable to discuss.

That we weren't updated even on the official blog on the status of the cases end of last week was inexcusable. If it isn't going to ship then speak loudly those words, not post false hope or not post at all. I remember last summer when I read the phrase "I'm going to say July". That became mid-September, then October before that particular Chinese holiday, then some Pandoras might ship before Thanksgiving, then again Christmas, along the ride to definitely January, to some out before CNY. Keep in mind too that the boards were decided to be populated just a few weeks ago.

What matters is the team TRUST US and give full disclosure now on status updates(or deal with refund/reorders on a massive scale if they do not). It should always be up to the customer if they want to wait it out or bail after weighing the honest facts. That will be far better long term, build respect and loyalty. I'll be watching closely the next few weeks after CNY to see what i'll do.
 
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This whole thing boils down to two things

If they don't post a thing because they are not sure of how things will turn up, have infrequent posts... The community flips out.
If they post some information on what they know in the present and it ends up being wrong.. The community flips out.

This is why more companies don't let the customers get involved or informed of the process.

I can understand where you guys come from, but it's a losing situation for them no matter what they do.
 
Kyosys said:
What kind of argument is that? It's not gonna change anything so you might as well not criticize them?
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Don't waste your time arguing with him, you had won from the start: "big pink gay executive" (torpor 2006, #torporvscraigix).
 
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what amuses me most about these forums are the multitude of defects from every camp there seems to be.

the daily moaner whos bile persists like a hangover from the various problems we have, relentless in their critisism but with nothing better to do and nowhere better to go than to just stick here

the information junkies who need hard facts immediately but are never going to get them

the exploding trolls who will turn up every few months and either jump in the deep end screaming and cursing everything to do with pandora or who just blow up with frustration at the above two categories

the AWOL witness, content to see people spout crap all day but wont put themselves remotely on the line to put anyone right

the troll feeders, who will try and reason with idiots until they cancel their orders in their own frustrations

etc, etc

this place has seen more retard going on that ive seen anywhere other than /b/ and its almost incredible that a group of supposedly civil intellectual people could end up involved in something so ridiculously self debasing. in fact, a lot of the people who have an almost /b/-like sense of humour here are actually the far more level individuals which really says something.

from my part i am well aware that i am in the exploding troll category, but then noone has limitless patience.

of all the things that go on here though, i do not understand the critisism towards people like the unofficial blog team. sure, someone like poisoned v was relieved of his duties but he was always going to incorporate his own opinion into what was going on rather than attempt to report on whatever news was available. they do a good job considering the climate and i just dont understand the critisism.

this place seriously needs to get a grip.
 
But that's just not true. Note how I specifically mentioned that he got his authorship taken away for something he said in THE COMMENTS, not the actual blog posts. By gruso who didn't start or own the blog at the time, so they were equals, in addition to that. What if Poisoned had "fired" gruso first?

I'm not sure what category you're putting me into, but for the record, no I don't have anything better to do than stay here. I've made almost 1000 posts and the last 10 - 15 (at best) have been negative. I didn't have anything better to do before and I don't now. As how I've stated, I've invested quite a lot of time into the project and I'd like to at least see where it goes, even if I canceled my preorder. I think that's fairly understandable. I'll also add that I just made a snarky remark in this thread and started "ranting" after I was asked to explain myself, which I think is a fair request. Again, I'm not desperately trying to convert anyone here and make sure that OP fails, I'm just stating my own opinions, beliefs and observations.
 
kyosys, i've seen you make plenty of worthwhile posts and really, any specific individuals that came to mind in my categories can probably look within themselves and know who they are. its certainly not everyone, just some of the vocal few who drown out the others.

if people are frustrated, and they are, thats fine. i am, you are, we all are, but some people just call out and bait the team until theyre blue in the face and then troll them to hell when they say anything. this project has been a nightmare in plenty of ways but i just hate the audacity people have to think that its worse for them than it is for the people actually involved. there just hasnt been a good way to do anything here but you cant deny that information we have received, accurate in the long term or not, has been far more than you will probably ever see from a device similar to this ever again. am i gonna get all up in my rage if its wrong? no because i am not (completely) crazy and understand that the world never works out the way i want it to, and its frankly just not supposed to anyway.
 
RenegadeChic said:
kyosys, i've seen you make plenty of worthwhile posts and really, any specific individuals that came to mind in my categories can probably look within themselves and know who they are. its certainly not everyone, just some of the vocal few who drown out the others.

if people are frustrated, and they are, thats fine. i am, you are, we all are, but some people just call out and bait the team until theyre blue in the face and then troll them to hell when they say anything. this project has been a nightmare in plenty of ways but i just hate the audacity people have to think that its worse for them than it is for the people actually involved. there just hasnt been a good way to do anything here but you cant deny that information we have received, accurate in the long term or not, has been far more than you will probably ever see from a device similar to this ever again. am i gonna get all up in my rage if its wrong? no because i am not (completely) crazy and understand that the world never works out the way i want it to, and its frankly just not supposed to anyway.
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Then there's those who take a simple thread trying to ask sensible questions only asking for simple answers that do not require absolutes. Like I did and those who seem to enjoy slammin down anyone who dares ask "who in the world has this not been decided this far along?"

You berated me because according to you I was trolling because I used the phrase "what's the plan?" after many of the questions. Never mind each question was designed with end question most appropriate for the topic yet undisclosed. For those where an absolute answer would have been nothing more than a bad idea (shipping methods etc.) that a direct pointed response would be ignored due to the fact that it hadn't been decided, "what's the plan" was a very valid question. Instead of having a thread where my question went unanswered, which would have shown people that they either didn't want to answer, or didn't have the answers, you led a charge that caused the thread to be nothing more than a slam fest.

I see what Kyosys is saying, and every time someone asks anything that we never get an answer to, they get slammed into the ground. I have almost backed out 3 times now, when I saw no one could get an answer to something that should at least "have a plan" if nothing else, yet each time Craig would say just how close we were and I just couldn't possibly think of backing out if we were THAT close. I payed into this venture on his confidence of last June or July delivery or whichever, and believed each and every time there was another date. Yet those simple questions still, now cannot be answered. If they are all taken care of or planned, then that would have been simple to answer. especially the year long question of shipping to US customers of which Jackie said she should finally have an answer two in about two weeks. yet, being talked about for nearly a year, one would think that at least a definite plan has been decided upon with contingencies for failure.

I'm still in this as I still believe we are close. while I feel similar to Kyosys, I am not so jaded yet as to not want to give Craig my money. I still understand just how difficult this is to make and that there most likely have been bad judgement calls, but right or wrong, one way or another, as long as the product comes out this time as it's supposed to, I will stay and be happy as I REALLY want this product. Most of those who have canceled wanted the product. Just for one reason or another couldn't stand how this has gone down. I had been warned about mentioning cancelling my order as I would make Craig mad at me. Now that I see as being strange. Sony isn't going to hate me if I tell them I'm going to return a PSP to the store or browse and not buy it. I had mentioned it when I got laid off and it was supposed to ship soon, only because there still was no information about import charges (before Texas shipping was mentioned), If I'm not mistaken these charges or their potential are supposed to be declared when purchasing and I wsas told it was paid in full and to wait for shipping confirmation and enjoy my Pandora. I asked about the charges saying I would have to cancel if they were to be a large amount and of course was flamed for asking and warned about pissing off Craig. Not the way to keep customers. Which is the kind of thing that sours a purchase like that. If I moved from 3500+ to 1500+ in queue to around 1500, it seems quite a lot of people have changed their mind.
I would recommend that for the next batch, or future Pandora's, that the team have official questions be referred to either a moderated board that only the team can respond on, or some sort of direct email to the team. this would allow people not to be soured by being slammed in the forums like I was on my first question. (reminding: my first question was about the TV cables, and ti was said how stupid was I not to be able to understand that S-video ONLY meant that S-video was the only output, yet at that time the Wiki said S-video and composite so I was trying to clear up the discrepancy. I was about to cancel for being berated and having made the video out mistake when it came out that it really WAS composite also. No one apologized, they just said "oh, OK" bad way to be introduced to the "open" community around the greatest gadget idea so far.)

I still say once these bad boys ship and we move along if the team handles things better in the future, no one will give much care anymore to how this all went down, just how hard it was to get it done.
As for Craig being drunk, I can't blame him. I only had a couple of alcoholic drinks in my life (never even a beer yet) up until this last year (2009), since joining this project I have begun to drink and have enjoyed about 6 bottles of vodka in the last 6 months. I am 37, and to not drink really to this point and to be drinking now, I guess I can understand...lol
 
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Well, if it's any consolation, ED was nice when returning the money and I received it back pretty fast. But then again, ED was never the problem for me.
 
I'd really like to say something constructive, but I don't know how.
I've been in this project pretty deep, sucking up info like a sponge.
There definitely have been several inconsitencies, that made me almost nuts, but what should I do?
I'm pretty sure that there have been some fights inside the OP Team, too. You can conclude this by reading between the lines.
I have no choice than doing what I think is best for the Community, as that's the reason why I registered on these boards in the first place.

Peace to all, and stay civil :)
 
Poem58 said:
If I'm not mistaken these charges or their potential are supposed to be declared when purchasing and I wsas told it was paid in full and to wait for shipping confirmation and enjoy my Pandora.
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Hi, Poem58. You may have missed it when I responded to this in another thread recently, but import duties on stuff for personal use are generally the responsibility of the buyer to be aware of (at the very least, I'm not aware of any requirement for a store abroad to tell a person that the country the buyer is from may or may not charge the buyer a fee when the goods arrive in the country - do feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though! :) ). It's an easy thing to overlook if you don't often import things, or if you usually import goods at or below the threshold for goods for personal use (in the US, that's $200, if memory serves - where I'm from it's only £18 :( ). I recall that I didn't realise this when I first imported stuff.

You'll sometimes find that stuff about import duties in foreign lands may not be mentioned by some online sellers, partly because it's the buyer's responsibility to deal with those things, but also partly because there's never any guarantee that you will or won't be charged customs duties by the officials in your country once your goods arrive there (and of course, the sellers have no way of knowing which way that will go, either). I tend to get the impression that stuff seemingly gets picked at random for checks and/or charges. :lol:

This is (and has been for a number of years) my experience of importing, anyway. If anyone knows better, then please feel free to correct this information - I can only speak from experience and from what information I've gathered elsewhere during that time. :)

I wish I could provide information that's more useful to you than that, but I'm fairly sure that the above is all that can be said about it.

EDIT: Whoops, I forgot something. Sometimes fees can also depend on the shipping service you're using. My experience with, for example, Royal Mail, UPS, DHL, and the like, is that whilst the customs fees can actually be quite small, the shipper's handling fees (for dealing with the customs stuff and the package) can sometimes be a bit pricey.
 
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poem, we had this out in that thread, but my own initial response was a result of my own frustration, checking the board too often, a run of similar demanding sounding threads (ill accept a language barrier as a possibility, but if i read it the way it sounded it would seem very patronising) and a low patch in a trough of bipolar depression. you got the sore end of that stick and im not gonna patronise you by apologising. i was wicked pissed.

either way though, i think its presumptuous to think this project has been a carefully and intentionally orchestrated endeavour. any plans went out of the window with the credit cards and the economic crisis and since then, things have just been done as and when they could be done. i dont know any of the OP team at all, but noone is stupid enough to think "fuck it, ill make my life a misery and lie to you all, see how long i can drag it out". information has been unreliable because everyone the company has worked with has been unreliable. there has been problem after problem and they've had nothing but shit and poor information from everyone. just look at this china business. both ED and craig expected all this done months ago, but when its out of your hands you just have to sit it out til its done. so craig has tried to engage and assuage the fretting of the pre-orderers, well the more you relay someone elses bad information the more you open yourself up to critisism. and where do you think everyone gets their information? do you think one person asks one source, and someone else asks another better source? they tell us the same things from the same sources in the end and its sad to think that holding back actually makes you somehow more acceptable to public opinion.

this whole project has been a nightmare but i just think people are lashing out at the nearest people available rather than just looking at the situation we are in and accepting it is out of everyones hands. how can you manage any better when no matter how much you plead and pester, its gonna get done when it gets done?

if anyone can give me one genuine way that this project could have been delivered any better for the same costs and with the same materials then i will be amazed
 
ds9replicatorops.jpg
 
um! yes! a picture of a....thing, that's nice (I think) :unsure:

you wouldn't care to enlighten those of us who do not move in your elevated circles and have no sodding idea what the hell that's supposed to mean?, would you?
 
hobbyman II said:
um! yes! a picture of a....thing, that's nice (I think) :unsure:

you wouldn't care to enlighten those of us who do not move in your elevated circles and have no sodding idea what the hell that's supposed to mean?, would you?
Click to expand...

lol, yea sorry. it a replicator.

BTW my circles are anything but elevated :D
 
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I wonder who here has put up their whole house as collateral just so they can sell an underdog games machine to a bunch of teenagers/aging geeks? Craig, thats who.

Sure, you might feel you've invested a lot of money - 300 bucks - but you know who is going to lose his house if this project doesn't ship and make a profit? Craig, thats who.

So, try to have a little context. My nose might be brown but at least I'm not going to lose everything if we all cancel Pandora orders ..
 
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