Programs From The Ångström Repo

[totozero]

Maybe you should backup the NAND device with dd on a USB stick then onto your PC
before trashing the standard Pandora installation (which seems risky to me) :

dd if=/dev/NAND_DEV of=/media/USB_STICK/pandump

restore it later from a bootable linux USB stick with :

dd if=/pandump of=/dev/NAND_DEV

Also, I'm not sure installing Gnome/KDE/E17 on a Pandora would improve performances.

 

[SomeGuy99]

I *REALLY* wish that OP Ltd., had set up a properly functioning Pandora repo for users instead of this hacked-up PND thing .. you *CAN* set up a repo to install things to SD card (user applications, and so on) while also using the rootfs, wherever it is (NAND) to hold the system libraries and tools and so on .. but as it is now, the potential for forks and random hackiness is pretty huge.

Look, I appreciate the 'one-file PND distribution' technology for user-space apps and games and so on - this is neat, and I appreciate it.

But I *HATE* the fact that there isn't, already, a working repo for Base OS updates. This just seems so incredibly stupid to me, that I can only be disgusted at it, frankly .. and there are simply no good reasons not to have a repo for the Base OS ..

I would be pissed off with that. I really can't be bothered to deal with the Linux style of micro-updating (there always seems to be hundreds, or it updates every day).

I would be happy with:

Alpha Period (what we're in now) - Hot Fix patches once a week
Beta Period - OS version once a month
Stable Period - New OS release once every 3-6 months.

And of course, a mechanism to automatically check for updates and apply them.

 

[torpor]

And of course, a mechanism to automatically check for updates and apply them.

Duh, thats what a repo is for. The policy of doing updates only once a month is *entirely* up to the repo maintainer - things don't have to be updated every day.

 

[SomeGuy99]

And of course, a mechanism to automatically check for updates and apply them.

Duh, thats what a repo is for. The policy of doing updates only once a month is *entirely* up to the repo maintainer - things don't have to be updated every day.

I'd rather have PND files in some kind of pseudo-repo than an actual package manager.

 

[skeezix]

pnd's are executables; for 'package management' we've rather left it for either a higher layer, or a future extension; couldn't bite of too much, without first getting stable and simple and useful, and then gather user input and usage experience to see where we want to go.

Remember.. we're at like day-zero still; you can't have everything 'at 3.0' on launch day; you have to start somewhere, and starting simple and reliable is much better than 'complex and half broken'

jeff

Yes, some limited auto-repackaing from ipkg and .deb can be done, but so many packages have post-install scripts etc, that automating it is difficult, though could be done in a pinch; better to do an actual port, to 'pandora-fy' something, but of course that can always be done later.

 

[torpor]

I'd rather have PND files in some kind of pseudo-repo than an actual package manager.

Whats wrong with having a stable Base OS update occurring every month? For 3rd-party developers, knowing the versions of libraries and binaries that are available to you on your end-users systems can be pretty useful .. and having security/speed updates being done automatically is pretty cool.

To be honest, this myopic hatred of repo's just doesn't make any sense. A properly-maintained and administered repo can make a huge difference to the success - for end-users and for 3rd-party developers - of a Linux distribution. Without it, things just become messy, unpredictable and .. well .. hacky.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that the 'not willing to comply with known working standards' vibe is pretty high among this hacky scene, though ..

Remember.. we're at like day-zero still; you can't have everything 'at 3.0' on launch day; you have to start somewhere, and starting simple and reliable is much better than 'complex and half broken'

Now, the thing is .. setting up a repo isn't *that* hard, nor is it difficult to maintain. Its just a missing task, in my opinion, in the organizational structure .. if there were a Chief Release Maintainer whose primary task was to update the repo so end-user machines were also updated, this would solve the problem .. and perhaps we will get there soon, but I hope it *IS* soon, and not later.

This is based on experience : with OpenMoko, with Touchbook, with Beagle, with the whole Zaurus endeavour: since the repo's were not being used as the primary means of keeping peoples systems updated, and since there was far too much hacking going on, it really caused problems for 3rd-party developers to keep up to date with what was going on, and this kills the effort.

Sure, we can all just pack everything into a PND, but in my opinion thats a bogus solution. A better solution is to have a Base OS repo that has the system updates, a User Apps repo that has 3rd-party stuff, and the PND system for those developers who don't need it/trust it/want it ..

Perhaps that will come, and once the OpenEmbedded build system is streamlined and working properly for other developers to get involved, maybe it will all go pretty smoothly .. I'm certainly willing to contribute to that angle of things. My understanding right now, though, is that the source tree and packages to build the current Base OS is all a bit 'hacked up' on DJWillis' disk and it will take him a while to smooth things out - imnsho, that can be really, really smoothed out if the effort to build a functional public-serving repo system is done, first of all .. then DJWillis can start flowing his hacks into a common OP build server, which can then release on the repo, and we'll all start to get a better-organized update system in use ..

 

[skeezix]

PND system is needed for most apps; its both a philisophy (simple use for the user), and implies a lot (port your app to work in CWD only, and thus safely from a pnd on SD.) Most apps need integration into the filesystem, normally, which just doesn't work on a handheld. So I think you're missing something or looking at things from the wrong angle -- PND should be most of the applications distributed for the device, not the least. A repo for managing pnds, sure, thats a good thing and we as a community need to work on that.

But maybe you were ignoring all that and just focusing on firmware, in which case we're all with you:

An actual OE repo etc, is for firmware updates and such; PNDs generally should not be used for that, likely, except for maybe milestone bumps for folks not following along. Most folks for casual devices are probably not going to set up daily pulls from a repo to get minor updates (it implies network connectivity and the usual repo hastl emost people don't want. Also, we can't go updating libs all the time, for it leads to all sorts of breakage from previously released apps. And if you think it wise for a gaming handheld to have people needing to stay bleeding edge lockstep to have apps and firmware cooperating .. that'd be awful; people wasnt to have a pnd, thats worked forever and always will; they don't want to get into 'damn, to run this I need that, and that need this, and I've got to wait 20mins for updates now, which might break previous things...)

So yeah, a firmware repo etc is needed, and a good place for people to follow along to get patches too all sorts of things (and you're right, there will be a lot of patches coming, as a lot of things need tweaking.) But I still expect most people will do occasional reflashed, than trailing along the mainline.

I might not have read up (too many threads to read , but clarify for me .. are you hoping to ignore the pnd system _entirely_, or are you just talking about firmware?

*reading too fast*

jeff

 

[oskarzer0]

Sorry, I´m not sure but...in this page http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/narcissus/ you can personalize your Pandora Angstrom Distribution, ¿not true? :unsure: :unsure: :blush:

You can choose build your rootfs image for Omap3-Pandora, type of image, the /dev manager......, and X11 Desktop Environments (Enlightenment, GNOME, Xfce 4.6, Matchbox or Illume)

:unsure: :unsure:

 

[skeezix]

"Chief Release Maintainer" -- you have to remember how many hands have been building this, and in how much time they have, and how much they're being paid We've been scrabbling every piece of free time to build the thing; "just one more task" is on top of many other tasks, that only a couple of people are doing in their spare time

Feel free to help join the fray and help out

jeff

"a User Apps repo that has 3rd-party stuff, and the PND system for those developers who don't need it/trust it/want it .. " --> okay, so even if you assume an app has been customized to work from CWD only, and not put into a .pnd type package; and even assumning you make sure the repo can work well from a non-pandora device (ie: when you're browsing from your laptop, desktop, work, etc.) okay. So from a non-pandora situatoin, you're asking the user to pull down a .. tarball or zip file of the app contents? and drop it onto SD? how does that get them anything? If they're on pandora, and you just a package manager to pull the app down and install it, that could work, but you've already thrown away half your use cases. But wait, they pull the app down to one SD, and then lose it, or want the app on a second SD; so now your app manager has to be multiple SD aware (something no existing repo does, btw), and manage apps that can eject/insert at any time, etc and so on.

I think you have not thought it all through end to end, nor thought about it from a 'dumb user' perspective

We're not idiots; we didn't 'invent a new wheel' for no good reason

 

[mindlord]

I totally agree with torpor here. A standard base system is a requirement for happy developers. It takes the burden off of them when an update breaks their game, all they have to do is update their toolchain against the base system, recompile and release. Without a stable base system they have to worry about dozens of hacks that might affect their product and it because a real headache to maintain. It quickly becomes not worth it.

I don't understand why people wouldn't want to use a repo for updates. I think you need to take a bigger drink of the Linux Kool-Aid because repos are one of the best things to ever happen to desktop computing. Even Microsoft is beginning to acknowledge thier usefulness.

Complaining that you get daily security updates from Ubuntu (for example) is madness as far as I'm concerned. I'm happy to see dozens up packages update. Why wouldn't you want the most up-to-date and secure versions available. I want nothing less for my Pandora as well. It sure beats the hell out of being vulnerable for two weeks while Microsoft decides if they feel like it's a smart idea to patch now or wait for their bi-monthly update cycle to fix that security hole in WinLogon.exe that allows a hacker to take total control of your system while you sleep.

 

[torpor]

PND system is needed for most apps; its both a philisophy (simple use for the user),

'Download a PND, put it on the SD, set up the directory structure, update the PND by hand whenever there is a new release' .. this is "simpler" for the user than "go to a list of apps in your GUI package manager, select what you want, run it from a menu"?

I'm sorry, but you're just playing favourites and *really* not looking at this honestly. No way a hand-downloaded PND that the user has to set up and configure themselves is easier than a repo.

Learn from Linux, please! Plenty of really great Linux systems are out there, being maintained exclusively from a repo, and its really, really useful!

and implies a lot (port your app to work in CWD only, 
and thus safely from a pnd on SD.)

.. and, from the perspective of a developer, have *absolutely no leverage from Base OS libraries* while you're at it .. no dependency tracking, etc.

 Most apps need integration into the filesystem, 
normally, which just doesn't work on a handheld.

What? Pandora is a normal Linux box. It ain't no handheld except physically - the OS is no different than the multi-core Linux workstation I'm using to type this message.

 So I think you're missing something or looking at things 
from the wrong angle -- PND should be most of the applications 
distributed for the device, not the least. A repo for managing 
pnds, sure, thats a good thing and we as a community need to 
work on that.

I think a PND repo would be useful, but I fail to see how you're going to implement it if people are just going to put their PND's wherever they feel like it and then complain when the updates don't work properly .. but I'm sure there will be yet another 'smart' technology invented here to solve whatever 'trivial' problems arise from this attitude ..

But maybe you were ignoring all that and just focusing on 
firmware, in which case we're all with you:

A Base OS repo is what I'm talking about - then, when that is working, a User App repo would be good, too .. and it could use PND's as the distributed file-format, if required by the cognescenti, but I still fail to see how this is as smooth as having a normal Linux system being administered for the user by the system .. and not the other way around, as is the case with PND downloads. We've already seen loads of people having problems setting up PND's .. if there were a User App repo, none of these problems would be possible.

An actual OE repo etc, is for firmware updates and such; 
PNDs generally should not be used for that, likely, except for 
maybe milestone bumps for folks not following along.

If you build it, they will come. If there was a repo system in place today, almost everyone with a Pandora by now would've used it, and it would settle as a standard means of handling this issue .. as it stands right now, there are already multiple tricky/difficult ways to get software on the Pandora, and it remains to be seen how much of a mess its going to be in 6 months, or even 1 months time ..

 Most folks for casual devices are probably not going to 
set up daily pulls from a repo to get minor updates (it implies 
network connectivity and the usual repo hastl emost people 
don't want.

The period-of-distribution update interval is *entirely* up to the maintainer of the repo, not the user, so this point is quite invalid. Nobody *has* to do an update - just like on the iPhone App Store (which is also a repo scheme), you can ignore updates if you want to. But, at least with the App Store repo, you don't have to mkdir anything ..

Also, we can't go updating libs all the time, for it 
leads to all sorts of breakage from previously released 
apps.

Not if those apps are being put into the repo themselves, it won't! You're complaining about a situation where an app has a dependency, and this dependency gets pulled out from under it .. this is *exactly* the scenario a proper repo system is designed to address, and boy does it!

 And if you think it wise for a gaming handheld to have people 
needing to stay bleeding edge lockstep to have apps and 
firmware cooperating .. that'd be awful;

Ahem *cough* *cough* *cough*

So you actually want people to have out-of-sync systems all over the place, eh?

 people wasnt to have a pnd, thats worked forever and 
always will; they don't want to get into 'damn, to run this I 
need that, and that need this, and I've got to wait 20mins for 
updates now, which might break previous things...)

Oh, come on, you're inventing things. This *never* happens with a properly maintained and adminstered repo.

So yeah, a firmware repo etc is needed, and a good place for 
people to follow along to get patches too all sorts of things 
(and you're right, there will be a lot of patches coming, as a 
lot of things need tweaking.) But I still expect most people 
will do occasional reflashed, than trailing along the mainline.

This is totally whack, in my opinion.

I might not have read up (too many threads to read :) , but 
clarify for me .. are you hoping to ignore the pnd system 
_entirely_, or are you just talking about firmware?

Obviously, I *can't* ignore the PND system, since it is being enforced by the cognescenti already, and is already a done deal .. what I'm talking about is updates to the Base OS (don't call it firmware please - the SGX driver is firmware, the DSP bridge is firmware, but /etc/init.d/ isn't firmware)

We're not idiots; we didn't 'invent a new wheel' for no good 
reason ;)

Well at the risk of inciting a great deal of vitriol and hatred, on this issue I think you are a bit idiotic, and I think you *did* invent a new wheel for a bad reason, personally. Honestly, I cannot conceive how a "download this PND yourself, place it in /pandora/apps/blah yourself, set up the config file to go to the right place, hope and pray it all works" is better than "Go to Software Manager, install whatever app you want, find it in the menu automatically" ..

Sure, PND's are good for Apps .. like ISO's, even .. but wtf.

Total NIH-syndrome, dogs.

EDIT: quote limit reached, re-formatted skeezix' insanity as code ..

 

[skeezix]

When has anyone _ever_ said a repo will not be available?

Someone above said something about repo-hate; where did this come from?

Looks like you're trying to find a fight that doesn't exist No one ever said a repo for the firmware will not be up

jeff

 

[torpor]

"a User Apps repo that has 3rd-party stuff, and the PND system for those developers who don't need it/trust it/want it .. " --> okay, so even if you assume an app has been customized to work from CWD only, and not put into a .pnd type package; and even assumning you make sure the repo can work well from a non-pandora device (ie: when you're browsing from your laptop, desktop, work, etc.) okay. So from a non-pandora situatoin, you're asking the user to pull down a .. tarball or zip file of the app contents? and drop it onto SD? how does that get them anything? If they're on pandora, and you just a package manager to pull the app down and install it, that could work, but you've already thrown away half your use cases. But wait, they pull the app down to one SD, and then lose it, or want the app on a second SD; so now your app manager has to be multiple SD aware (something no existing repo does, btw), and manage apps that can eject/insert at any time, etc and so on.

You can set up the repo system so that it will install user apps on /media/card1 or /media/card2 quite effectively, and it will work *JUST FINE*. If the user pulls the SD card out - well then, the menu doesn't show them those apps any more, and they'll have to put the SD card back in if they want those apps back .. big deal!?

When has anyone _ever_ said a repo will not be available?

The work that has been put into the NIH "ultra cool" PND system could as well have been applied to a properly working Repo that delivers even greater, working, functionality .. so .. I don't think *you* have thought it through, in all honesty. Its just a big show.
Where did I ever say a user would have to download and unpack a tarball? This is the same as downloading and setting up (by hand) a PND file, so .. nice twist there.

 

[skeezix]

Download pnd, drop it here; thats it. No config hacking or anything, pretty darned easy, and reliable.

You didn't respond to my later commentary -- how does your repo deal with SDs ejecting and inserting all the time?

You also ignored the fact that it _is_ a handheld, with limited RAM; integrating a lot of apps into the fileysystem simplky _cannot happen_ sensibly.

Likewise, your pointtting to hotfix and codec pack is sillyness at its height; the hotfix pack is a hotfix released say day as the device, by a couple of people making devices; you thinbk they have time to set up all sorts of systems right now? the hotfix was to repair a kernel issue, in the way simplest for the users. Eeryone knows how to download a file and copy it to SD; you want them, day zero, with a screwy kernel, trying to set up wifi and sucking down a fix from a repo? *hardly* and never really done anywhere

And try to find the number of problems with people using pnds; oh wait.. none! The only reports I've seen are: 1) a couple pepole who put them in / instead of /pandora/random-directory; that is _on purpose_ -- and thanks for not asking why, and just assuming its stupid The reason I picked for that was.. the system is defaulting to dirwalking from the searchpaths, so that people can organize in hierarchies if they want; so having it look at / implies searching the whole SD, which could also be a 1TB USB disk. That'd be just plain slow to seek through. So we suggest people use a /pandora hierarchy, much like many other devices do. But they're free to use / or anywhere else if they're experts and do want to fiddle with the confs.

So yes, we have a basic and very easy to follow rule

As to the only other issue I've seen -- was a developer who had a broken pnd (and who admittedly did find a small bug that no one will run into; I need to fix that. Bugs happen, but its an edge case .. one pnd-file that spit out 27 apps is clearly uncommon, and caught by the dev before it hit the field.)

So yes, theres been no real problems with pnd files.

Now instead, try to get the repo working when the user may not have wifi at all (and there is no ethernet port), and try to get OS fixes how?

We don't have a NIH here syndrome; seriously, we're much prefer to not code anything we didn't have to. We're erring on the side of user convenience. (And that said, maybe I'll all wrong; fine, could be. You can call me an idiot if you like, I've been developing for a looong time, it won't hurt my feelings.) I might also be influenced from developing for handhelds of every possible OS for 15 years

But I think I'm onto something, and people are very enthusiastic about the pnd system.

It is very carefully designed in some pieces (and ugly in others, such is life) -- one core design was 'keep it simple and working' so it can gain traction in its target; it is very carefully incomplete -- we couldn't tackle some things, and also some things should not be tackled early on, lest it derali the whole ease and adoption goal. New standards must always be simple (think RSS history here), to get adoption. Then later, you grow them as you gain usage experience (think Knuth and optimization -- you don't optimize early. You gather experience first.)

So we might have missed the boat, but clearly we're doing something right -- almost every user of pnds has had them work out of the box, as adveritised, with no weird device setup that would fail if their wifi doesn't work, or if they yank out the SD and stick it in the other slot.

BTW, I've been using BSD and Linux (and solaris, irix, etc) for a very long time, and I also know how often people get bitten by repos when they don't want to be

jeff

 

[bce23w]

But wait, they pull the app down to one SD, and then lose it, or want the app on a second SD; so now your app manager has to be multiple SD aware (something no existing repo does, btw), and manage apps that can eject/insert at any time, etc and so on.

You can set up the repo system so that it will install user apps on /media/card1 or /media/card2 quite effectively, and it will work *JUST FINE*. If the user pulls the SD card out - well then, the menu doesn't show them those apps any more, and they'll have to put the SD card back in if they want those apps back .. big deal!?

Sorry, repo new person here: how does that help them if they lose the card or want to install the app again on second card?

 

[torpor]

Another thing: If someone comes in here and says "Just use the Angstrom repos", I will virtually strangle them, in my mind, violently .. The Angstrom repos do not target our hardware - they target generic ARM, and the performance issues you will run into if you just 'update from the Angstrom repos' will be a catastrophic nightmare.

The Pandora console deserves its *own* repos, being run by people who know how to do things sanely and safely and securely, without prejudice. A Base OS repo (to address things like the Hotfix 1 PND) and an "Open Public User App" repo would be really, really great .. and a PND-only release repo too, I suppose, although I really fail to see what PND does for the average Pandora user that a fully working repo wouldn't do ..

 

[Asiyura]

(…)
I really fail to see what PND does for the average Pandora user that a fully working repo wouldn't do ..

The ability to download PND on their main computer, put it on SD card and then just put it into their pandora because they don't have wifi?
The fact that all the files of an app are localized in the same .pnd file? (except proprietary datas and roms)

Why are you hating so much the PND system?

 

[Aninhumer]

Download pnd, drop it here; thats it. No config hacking or anything, pretty darned easy, and reliable.

As opposed to a repo where you select and click install, also with no config hacking.
I agree with the general idea, skeezix, but please stick to solid arguments.
Arguments like:

You didn't respond to my later commentary -- how does your repo deal with SDs ejecting and inserting all the time?

This.
@torpor
Modern repos are not designed for systems with potentially highly fractured storage.
A repo for core OS updates is fine, but it's not going to work well if you want to install apps to the SD.
You're going to end up with dependencies on different SDs, and the package manager will never really know whether anything is actually available.
Perhaps they could have done something to solve this, but I think PNDs are a reasonably elegant solution, and don't involve designing something even more complicated than existing repo systems to handle it.

I'm sure there will be a solution for automatic PND updates at some point anyway.

So yes, theres been no real problems with pnd files.

Give it time.

 

[skeezix]

torpor -- again (and with all due respect; we're allowed to discuss and disagree without being heated, right? maybe I'm fully wrong, but try to enlighten me

Please go through point by point and avoid cherry picking or ignoring the good bits (and I might be doing the same; I'm in a mega rush, so aplogies if I fail to catch something.)

ie:

repo install to /media/foo1; then you yank it out and insert into slot2. Does the repo handle that? what if you want to download it again onto another SD? how does it work out dependancies when you've installed to foo2, and foo1, and then stick in foo3 instead of foo2.. dependancies all go to hell etc.

Repos do not handle ejectable media.

But again, see some scenarios above

jeff

 

[Tempel]

Torpor, I think you're being kind of unreasonable here. The PND system addresses a *very specific* use case: end-user apps that run on a fixed base system (particularly a system that has media being inserted and removed at any time, and without necessarily having a network connection ever available). I think the PND system is perfect for this.

As for that fixed base system, everyone agrees with you: a proper repo is really important (except maybe SomeGuy99, but we'll pretend he's not part of "everyone"). The PND system should definitely not be handling hotfixes and codec packs, but no one's gotten around to making a repo to dish them out. You say it's easy; would you like to do it? That's a serious question; the team could always use more help, and I would love to see a real repo for OS updates appear soon. And if you want to add a Public User App section to it, I won't mind, though I'll stick with PNDs myself.