Preventing More Delays (sd License)

[truekaiser]

The only show stopper is the sd license. The Vfat license has a simple work around, do not put Vfat support in the linux kernel that will be running the pandora just stick to ext3 and put a link to the windows ext3 driver for those here who still use windows. A non journaled file system is relic of the past and should not be on a mobile device for obvious reasons.

 

[Monk]

For the FAT issue, could you not put a sticker on the pandora that says. "please install ext4 driver before inserting SD card into your PC" then you wouldn't have to worry about MS.

Judging by the following quotes, that solution may be sub-optimal.

well there is always the ext2 drivers for windows.... I know it has drawbacks (like you acutally have to install it ) might not be as stable as fat support in windows doubt that though

It also doesn't work 1/2 the time, and is only for permanent mounted hard drives, temp things like sd would fail hard.

 

[Butterman]

The only show stopper is the sd license. The Vfat license has a simple work around, do not put Vfat support in the linux kernel that will be running the pandora just stick to ext3 and put a link to the windows ext3 driver for those here who still use windows. A non journaled file system is relic of the past and should not be on a mobile device for obvious reasons.

Well. I was planning on using FAT for my SDHC card. To me, it just makes sense. I don't have to mess about with drivers on every other system I use, I don't have to mess about to get the signed driver to work under Vista 64bit etc...

But if it saves money. I'm all for ext3 SDHC cards.

 

[Monk]

TI has said that customers are responsible for licensing of the SD protocol so we''ll have to pay for it. At least we can use their logo now.

It seems that some of you should make apologies to spaceballs3000, and a few thanks for pointing this out for the OP team.

(not talking to MWeston, but the "internet know it alls" who argued this without knowing what they were talking about.

btw, thanks spaceballs3000


Read the posts again - nobody flamed him or outright stated that he was absolutely wrong (at least, I didn't). All I said was that I wouldn't expect it to be that way. Everything was stated as opinion, not researched (or assumed) fact.

EDIT: Good to know that this is covered now and we didn't run into some potentially fatal licensing fees.


Actually reading the thread again, I think a quick "thanks" to SpaceBalls is quite in order.

Thanks SpaceBalls.

While people may think they did not strictly contradict Spaceballs (and I'm sure we could spend ages on that) I feel that the tone of the thread was largely based around the theme of "you're wrong, spacedballs" for a while, and he she or it might not NEED an apology but a quick nod in their direction may not go astray.

Without SpaceBalls, it seems from ED's and MWeston's posts that OP could have got in hot water somewhere down the line - and to my mind, a couple of 99P (or more expensive) USB to SD converters per Pandora is surely not as good a solution as paying the >$4000 licensing fee, which seems likely to be both a neater (tidier) AND cheaper solution (up to $1 per device if OP only ever make one batch? Or is my math wrong somewhere?).

As for whether SD and other companies deserve all these license fees, and whether China should be taken to court en masse for the things THEY get away without paying, that's another matter entirely!

Ta.

 

[truekaiser]

For the FAT issue, could you not put a sticker on the pandora that says. "please install ext4 driver before inserting SD card into your PC" then you wouldn't have to worry about MS.

Judging by the following quotes, that solution may be sub-optimal.

well there is always the ext2 drivers for windows.... I know it has drawbacks (like you acutally have to install it ) might not be as stable as fat support in windows doubt that though

It also doesn't work 1/2 the time, and is only for permanent mounted hard drives, temp things like sd would fail hard.



It worked fine for me on removable hard drives. when i had a mixed window's linux environment

 

[fordp]

Well China has an easy get out. China is a officially communist county. Therefore everybody is employed by the state. So they only need one licence for the whole place and every Chinese person can have access to the documents B)

 

[Chip]

Am I the only one concerned that the OP team did not appear to have researched this themselves, and have had to have it pointed out by somebody on the forum?!
Why would you think that is the case? Craig and I discussed this months ago. SD assoc. fees aren't news to anybody.

 

[Phawx]

@Chip

I've only been frequenting here since September. So this is news to me. I guess you guys discussed it quite awhile previously than that, because ED forgot about it. "AFAIK (I wasn't the one to check this), the SD has been licensed by TI for the OMAP already, so it should be safe."

I'm not blaming ED for forgetting, a ton of stuff has happened since September and you guys had to have talked about it prior to that because I haven't seen any mention of SD licensing except when (someguy?) was doing vector art for the "wifi, bluetooth, SD card" things.

But Mweston's post pretty much clears up that you guys have secured the SD licensing already, so I am glad we know the specifics. But that FAT support that MS has patented...what kind of wrench in the works is that, if any?

On another note, how's everything, Chip? I haven't seen you around these parts much lately. Everything okay in Chip-Land?

 

[Vorporeal]

ED's post didn't have any connotations of him forgetting anything. Reread it. All it shows is that he wasn't involved with determining licensing issues, and so he's just posting what he thinks might be the case - the contents of his post might or might not be correct.

 

[Phawx]

I was under the assumption the developers actually talk to each other about different developments concerning the Pandora. But if they don't than you would be correct Vorporeal. But that would be very scary. It would also explain all the shipping problems, between the FDM and CNC cases. So maybe you are right.

 

[Vorporeal]

The way I see it is that they talked to each other, someone was delegated the person to investigate and deal with licensing issues (MFK, maybe?), and that person just reported back to the rest of the team that all the licenses were successfully dealt with/paid up. They didn't necessarily need to give details, just confirmation that they were in the clear.

 

[Phawx]

I guess. But they are only a small team. It's not like they have hundreds of members where it might not be pertinent for 100% to know. There are only eight<?from the main page> main people that have a vested interest in getting the Pandora of the ground. Shouldn't all communication go to every member?

Mweston seems to have summed up all the details in one sentence. It's not like it was a ton of details, but if I was in a group like that, I would think that communication would be paramount.

 

[DigitalWings]

I guess. But they are only a small team. It's not like they have hundreds of members where it might not be pertinent for 100% to know. There are only eight<?from the main page> main people that have a vested interest in getting the Pandora of the ground. Shouldn't all communication go to every member?

Mweston seems to have summed up all the details in one sentence. It's not like it was a ton of details, but if I was in a group like that, I would think that communication would be paramount.

Thats idiotic logic. And whos to say they hadn't all heard it summed up in one sentence. I mean as you said theres only 8 of them and it takes A LOT of work to do what they have done. As soon as the hear something is taken care of they forget about it.
To tell everyone on the forum every single thing they had to do to get pandora off the ground would waste time they don't have.

 

[monkeyo2]

The way I see it is that the Pandora is an unreleased product that is currently having a test run manufactured, which is going to be sent out to people who paid a discounted rate to be in the test programme.

Do they really need a licence just for testing?

 

[MWeston]

I was under the assumption the developers actually talk to each other about different developments concerning the Pandora. But if they don't than you would be correct Vorporeal. But that would be very scary. It would also explain all the shipping problems, between the FDM and CNC cases. So maybe you are right.

There weren't 'shipping problems' between Fatih and myself. Yes, the plastics company screwed up twice when they didn't make the light pipes from clear plastic and then not mailing a set of game buttons in the second shipment meant for me but there's nothing we could do about that. We expect a certain level of professionalism and when they fail, we get shafted.

I'm pretty sure Fatih's shipping account won't let him ship anywhere that doesn't have his address as the shipper or the receiver so he had no choice but to get the parts sent to him and then on to me. I wish this company could just send directly to me and then bill Fatih, but perhaps they operate on charge account shipping and prepaid orders only.

EDIT: Oh, and the SD organization contacted us well before this thread was started and has already demanded their pound of flesh. It's $1000/yr and lube is optional.

 

[lulzfish]

EDIT: Oh, and the SD organization contacted us well before this thread was started and has already demanded their pound of flesh. It's $1000/yr and lube is optional.

It's a good thing we have open data standards like SD that small developers can use so easily. <_<

 

[Phawx]

I guess. But they are only a small team. It's not like they have hundreds of members where it might not be pertinent for 100% to know. There are only eight<?from the main page> main people that have a vested interest in getting the Pandora of the ground. Shouldn't all communication go to every member?

Mweston seems to have summed up all the details in one sentence. It's not like it was a ton of details, but if I was in a group like that, I would think that communication would be paramount.

Thats idiotic logic. And whos to say they hadn't all heard it summed up in one sentence. I mean as you said theres only 8 of them and it takes A LOT of work to do what they have done. As soon as the hear something is taken care of they forget about it.
To tell everyone on the forum every single thing they had to do to get pandora off the ground would waste time they don't have.



@DigitalWings

Look at post #48. I orginally said ED may have forgot with all the stuff that was happening. Vorporeal had suggested that I had interpreted it wrong. And I wasn't saying for OP to tell us everything. I mean, if we ask a question, I would hope it gets answered. I meant for communication between JUST the eight of them.

I hope that clarified that for you.

@MWeston

So Fatih is getting everything shipped to him. But why didn't he just ship you the unit that came to him on March 9th? This way, the only thing you would be waiting on would be the lightpipes. Or would the delay be the same regardless?

 

[WizardStan]

It's a good thing we have open data standards like SD that small developers can use so easily. <_<
The $1000 is only supposed to be if you're going commercial with it, and in the grand scheme of things, $1000 is paltry fee for a commercial venture. Just consider MP3 licensing. $1000 is barely enough to make me think they're only charging anything so they don't get abused.

 

[spaceballs3000]

Am I the only one concerned that the OP team did not appear to have researched this themselves, and have had to have it pointed out by somebody on the forum?!
Why would you think that is the case? Craig and I discussed this months ago. SD assoc. fees aren't news to anybody.

"Why would you think that is the case?"

There were posts about SD Logo stuffs, yet you, craigix, etc didn't say anything about it. I even PM craigix and gotten no response.

With the lack of notifying anyone when people are talking about it on the forums, would suggest to others that it hasn't been done. FCC/CE etc was mentioned but not SD.

Also announcing SD Licensing would just make Pandora look more official to customers, there is no negative thing that can come from announcing it.

 

[spaceballs3000]

MWeston $1k a year are old prices, it's now minimum of $2k now. Maybe your thinking getting access to the SD specifications, which cost $1k.

Has SD License been paid yet? As I don't see "OpenPandora Ltd." on http://www.sdcard.org/developers/about/mem...mpanies/general

I know they update the list fairly quickly.