possible soc updates.

[God Ginrai]

@Grench Just because it is x86 does not mean that it will be compatible with all of your x86 Linux games. There are a lot of things to consider such as the power of the chip and compatibility/stability of the gpu. Even commercial Windows games have to make tweaks and patches to make sure they work with specific GPUs. Also, does Steam even work on anything other than ubuntu atm?

Also, that %10 that isn't in standard linux repositories are probably the most used applications on the Pandora. (Picodrive, DraStic, gpsp, and other optimized emulators, as well as other homebrew titles from the Pandora. Not to mention homebrew for the Wiz and GP2X which can be played through GINGE)

I never said there weren't benefits to x86. I said there were not enough benefits. Not for a handheld device.

I think that if we didn't find a valid ARM solution, we should go for Intel...and we could made an agreement for a sponsored console.

What other option would there be? MIPS?

-God Ginrai

 

[Farox]

MIPS ?

I don't know any valid solution for a Pandora 2

 

[Grench]

@Grench Just because it is x86 does not mean that it will be compatible with all of your x86 Linux games. There are a lot of things to consider such as the power of the chip and compatibility/stability of the gpu. Even commercial Windows games have to make tweaks and patches to make sure they work with specific GPUs. Also, does Steam even work on anything other than ubuntu atm?

-God Ginrai

As far as I can tell Steam works fine on all the major X86 and AMD64 distributions.  I'm using it on 64bit Mint - flawlessly.  Although that being an Ubuntu derivative may not thrill you.  A quick search shows that people have it running on Fedora/RedHat.  There isn't anything that really restricts it to just Ubuntu, but you will likely need to isntall a few bits and pieces if you're on another platform.

Dream...

64bit 2W quad core X86 SoC with OpenGL video  22nm first, 14nm process gets to be in the P2.5

6GB RAM (via two Samusng 3GB chips?)

1920x1080 5" screen in the clam shell lid

Dual full sized SDXC slots - one hidden (for OS & swap - only removable with battery out), one open.

802.11n network, Bluetooth

Accellerometer, compass - maybe even GPS?

Full sized USB 3.0 host

Micro or mini USB/MHL/OTG port

Four shoulder buttons

Pandora's nubs & keyboard or better

Wrist strap loop

Running Linux Mint, capable of running any X86 Linux release or even MS Win if someone wants to buy their own license.

Same overall size (roughly) as the existing Pandora

Who do I send my money to for that?

 

[Binky]

...and I'd like more than 5h battery life.

 

[God Ginrai]

...and I'd like more than 5h battery life.

Well, we got that with the Pandora, I'm sure we would try for the same with its successor. I would like to say that I would like for us to look into the battery solution. If we can get good battery life with an off-the-shelf solution, it may be worthwhile to stick with that instead of making another custom battery.

-God Ginrai

 

[Binky]

^ I was referring to the "2W" processor mentioned by Grench.

Allowing another 1W for the rest of the device (incl. screen) thats 3W

3W @ 3.7V for 10 hours means an 8 (yes, eight) amp-hour battery.

Twice as big as the current pandora's.

Unless battery energy-density doubles in the next year or two, Grench's suggestion and a long battery life are mutually exclusive.

 

[God Ginrai]

Unless battery energy-density doubles in the next year or two, Grench's suggestion and a long battery life are mutually exclusive.

Ah, good point. I was missing the context. Score one for ARM, I guess?

-God Ginrai

 

[_wb_]

Don't expect closed-source PC games to work well on a handheld - even if it's x86 and supports OpenGL. If you need to change anything to adapt it to the small screen (e.g. use a larger font or otherwise modify the interface a bit), make it work with controls (e.g. nubs) that were not anticipated, or anything like that, then those binaries will not be very useful, even if you have a cpu that can execute them.

I suggest to consider SoC technical specs and availability of FOSS drivers only - I don't care if the next SoC is x86, ARM, MIPS or whatever, as long as it has good perf, good perf/Watt, and decent FOSS support. Legacy compatibility is only important if it's about compatibility with existing handhelds (most notably of course the P1). Hardware compatibility with PCs is barely a factor because that stuff needs to be recompiled anyway.

 

[God Ginrai]

Don't expect closed-source PC games to work well on a handheld - even if it's x86 and supports OpenGL. If you need to change anything to adapt it to the small screen (e.g. use a larger font or otherwise modify the interface a bit), make it work with controls (e.g. nubs) that were not anticipated, or anything like that, then those binaries will not be very useful, even if you have a cpu that can execute them.

This.

-God Ginrai

 

[vcoleiro1]

I did start this thread on Bay Trial :  it's worth noting that 2 tablets at least will be coming out with the Bay Trail SOC in the next 2 months.

http://boards.openpandora.org/index.php/topic/14297-baytrail-soc-anandtech-review-and-benchmarks/

Bay Trail is being priced very aggresively from Intels statements and by going with Tablet releases with it, so those worried about the cost need not be.  

 

[Grench]

Don't expect closed-source PC games to work well on a handheld - even if it's x86 and supports OpenGL. If you need to change anything to adapt it to the small screen (e.g. use a larger font or otherwise modify the interface a bit), make it work with controls (e.g. nubs) that were not anticipated, or anything like that, then those binaries will not be very useful, even if you have a cpu that can execute them.

I suggest to consider SoC technical specs and availability of FOSS drivers only - I don't care if the next SoC is x86, ARM, MIPS or whatever, as long as it has good perf, good perf/Watt, and decent FOSS support. Legacy compatibility is only important if it's about compatibility with existing handhelds (most notably of course the P1). Hardware compatibility with PCs is barely a factor because that stuff needs to be recompiled anyway.

Font size is what it is - live with it or use:

http://www.amazon.com/SE-Loupe-Double-Lens-MI128-55/dp/B000YMZJX2

The number of pixels would be the same as on the main computer monitor of a laptop or desktop machine - just very dense.

Most of the games in Steam and NeverwinterNights have some in-game font adjustment for high resolution screens (to a point).

Adapting the nubs - that has to happen at the OS level.  Pretty much just like the Pandora.  They can be made to appear as joysticks or mice - that shouldn't be a real reason to exclude a chip architecture.

In this benchmark they loaded Steam onto a Bay Trial tablet, connected with bluetooth mouse and keyboard and played Team Fortress 2.  http://www.anandtech.com/show/7314/intel-baytrail-preview-intel-atom-z3770-tested

No optimizations to platform, worst case scenario, loaded during a demo, playable - despite having the Win8 overhead bogging it down.

FOSS support would be really nice to have - but I'm not opposed to using closed drivers if they're fully available, supported and licensed to include updates to purchasers of the related hardware.  Does anyone know if Bay Trial Atom SoCs are FOSS for the video (and other?) drivers?

 

[Exophase]

No optimizations to platform, worst case scenario, loaded during a demo, playable - despite having the Win8 overhead bogging it down.

Win 8 overhead sounds like a myth. WINE overhead on the other hand is very real. I think that'd be a good thing to evaluate, how it runs in WINE on Linux, since running Windows 8 on a Pandora isn't a great option.

FOSS support would be really nice to have - but I'm not opposed to using closed drivers if they're fully available, supported and licensed to include updates to purchasers of the related hardware.  Does anyone know if Bay Trial Atom SoCs are FOSS for the video (and other?) drivers?

AFAIK they're open source.

 

[monstercameron]

Don't expect closed-source PC games to work well on a handheld - even if it's x86 and supports OpenGL. If you need to change anything to adapt it to the small screen (e.g. use a larger font or otherwise modify the interface a bit), make it work with controls (e.g. nubs) that were not anticipated, or anything like that, then those binaries will not be very useful, even if you have a cpu that can execute them.

I suggest to consider SoC technical specs and availability of FOSS drivers only - I don't care if the next SoC is x86, ARM, MIPS or whatever, as long as it has good perf, good perf/Watt, and decent FOSS support. Legacy compatibility is only important if it's about compatibility with existing handhelds (most notably of course the P1). Hardware compatibility with PCs is barely a factor because that stuff needs to be recompiled anyway.

http://www.xpadder.com/ map keys to buttons.

 

[God Ginrai]

Don't expect closed-source PC games to work well on a handheld - even if it's x86 and supports OpenGL. If you need to change anything to adapt it to the small screen (e.g. use a larger font or otherwise modify the interface a bit), make it work with controls (e.g. nubs) that were not anticipated, or anything like that, then those binaries will not be very useful, even if you have a cpu that can execute them.

I suggest to consider SoC technical specs and availability of FOSS drivers only - I don't care if the next SoC is x86, ARM, MIPS or whatever, as long as it has good perf, good perf/Watt, and decent FOSS support. Legacy compatibility is only important if it's about compatibility with existing handhelds (most notably of course the P1). Hardware compatibility with PCs is barely a factor because that stuff needs to be recompiled anyway.

http://www.xpadder.com/ map keys to buttons.

He was talking about the nubs.

-God Ginrai

 

[monstercameron]

Don't expect closed-source PC games to work well on a handheld - even if it's x86 and supports OpenGL. If you need to change anything to adapt it to the small screen (e.g. use a larger font or otherwise modify the interface a bit), make it work with controls (e.g. nubs) that were not anticipated, or anything like that, then those binaries will not be very useful, even if you have a cpu that can execute them.


I suggest to consider SoC technical specs and availability of FOSS drivers only - I don't care if the next SoC is x86, ARM, MIPS or whatever, as long as it has good perf, good perf/Watt, and decent FOSS support. Legacy compatibility is only important if it's about compatibility with existing handhelds (most notably of course the P1). Hardware compatibility with PCs is barely a factor because that stuff needs to be recompiled anyway.

http://www.xpadder.com/ map keys to buttons.

He was talking about the nubs.

-God Ginrai

you can map keys to the nubs...drivers capable.

 

[God Ginrai]

Don't expect closed-source PC games to work well on a handheld - even if it's x86 and supports OpenGL. If you need to change anything to adapt it to the small screen (e.g. use a larger font or otherwise modify the interface a bit), make it work with controls (e.g. nubs) that were not anticipated, or anything like that, then those binaries will not be very useful, even if you have a cpu that can execute them.

I suggest to consider SoC technical specs and availability of FOSS drivers only - I don't care if the next SoC is x86, ARM, MIPS or whatever, as long as it has good perf, good perf/Watt, and decent FOSS support. Legacy compatibility is only important if it's about compatibility with existing handhelds (most notably of course the P1). Hardware compatibility with PCs is barely a factor because that stuff needs to be recompiled anyway.

http://www.xpadder.com/ map keys to buttons.

He was talking about the nubs.

-God Ginrai

you can map keys to the nubs...drivers capable.

Yea, but it's not keys you would need mapped to the nubs in an FPS, it's analog input.

-God Ginrai

 

[Grench]

No optimizations to platform, worst case scenario, loaded during a demo, playable - despite having the Win8 overhead bogging it down.

Win 8 overhead sounds like a myth. WINE overhead on the other hand is very real. I think that'd be a good thing to evaluate, how it runs in WINE on Linux, since running Windows 8 on a Pandora isn't a great option.

FOSS support would be really nice to have - but I'm not opposed to using closed drivers if they're fully available, supported and licensed to include updates to purchasers of the related hardware.  Does anyone know if Bay Trial Atom SoCs are FOSS for the video (and other?) drivers?

AFAIK they're open source.

So, these Bay Trail SoCs, if they're all they're cracking up to be, might actually be a viable SoC for a Pandora successor?

cool...  Actually, cooling is still a bit of a consideration.  Heat spreader plate with fins on an exposed edge?  How much heat sink exposed to air outside the case do you think it would need to passively dissipate 3W total system heat?  I figure a 20ga aluminum sheet sandwiched between the MB and the battery to collect/spread the heat to a passive radiator on the front (where SD slots are now - move those to sides) might work.  Should be able to get something in the range of ten 3mm tall fins 1mm apart for 30mm X 10mm (wide) or 300mm^2 of exposed high thermal conductivity surface area to air.

Somewhere on here there's got to be an engineer who can determine how hot those aluminum fins would get.

 

[monstercameron]

Don't expect closed-source PC games to work well on a handheld - even if it's x86 and supports OpenGL. If you need to change anything to adapt it to the small screen (e.g. use a larger font or otherwise modify the interface a bit), make it work with controls (e.g. nubs) that were not anticipated, or anything like that, then those binaries will not be very useful, even if you have a cpu that can execute them.


I suggest to consider SoC technical specs and availability of FOSS drivers only - I don't care if the next SoC is x86, ARM, MIPS or whatever, as long as it has good perf, good perf/Watt, and decent FOSS support. Legacy compatibility is only important if it's about compatibility with existing handhelds (most notably of course the P1). Hardware compatibility with PCs is barely a factor because that stuff needs to be recompiled anyway.

http://www.xpadder.com/ map keys to buttons.

He was talking about the nubs.

-God Ginrai

you can map keys to the nubs...drivers capable.

Yea, but it's not keys you would need mapped to the nubs in an FPS, it's analog input.

-God Ginrai

you can map the mouse to the nubs...drivers capable.

 

[Grench]

Don't expect closed-source PC games to work well on a handheld - even if it's x86 and supports OpenGL. If you need to change anything to adapt it to the small screen (e.g. use a larger font or otherwise modify the interface a bit), make it work with controls (e.g. nubs) that were not anticipated, or anything like that, then those binaries will not be very useful, even if you have a cpu that can execute them.


I suggest to consider SoC technical specs and availability of FOSS drivers only - I don't care if the next SoC is x86, ARM, MIPS or whatever, as long as it has good perf, good perf/Watt, and decent FOSS support. Legacy compatibility is only important if it's about compatibility with existing handhelds (most notably of course the P1). Hardware compatibility with PCs is barely a factor because that stuff needs to be recompiled anyway.

http://www.xpadder.com/ map keys to buttons.

He was talking about the nubs.

-God Ginrai

you can map keys to the nubs...drivers capable.

Yea, but it's not keys you would need mapped to the nubs in an FPS, it's analog input.

-God Ginrai

They are joy sticks.  Yes, we call them nubs.  They map just like a joy stick if the drivers are set right at the OS level.  The FPS games talk to the OS.  The OS talks to the hardware.

Also - couldn't care less about WINE benchmarks.  Steam for Linux games don't use WINE (components of it -yes).  NWN has a native X86 Linux client too.  I'm talking about commercial games that are already ported to X86 Linux - without using an additional abstraction layer (WINE) to make the game think it's on Windows.

 

[_wb_]

Don't expect closed-source PC games to work well on a handheld - even if it's x86 and supports OpenGL. If you need to change anything to adapt it to the small screen (e.g. use a larger font or otherwise modify the interface a bit), make it work with controls (e.g. nubs) that were not anticipated, or anything like that, then those binaries will not be very useful, even if you have a cpu that can execute them.


I suggest to consider SoC technical specs and availability of FOSS drivers only - I don't care if the next SoC is x86, ARM, MIPS or whatever, as long as it has good perf, good perf/Watt, and decent FOSS support. Legacy compatibility is only important if it's about compatibility with existing handhelds (most notably of course the P1). Hardware compatibility with PCs is barely a factor because that stuff needs to be recompiled anyway.

http://www.xpadder.com/ map keys to buttons.

He was talking about the nubs.

-God Ginrai

you can map keys to the nubs...drivers capable.

Yea, but it's not keys you would need mapped to the nubs in an FPS, it's analog input.

-God Ginrai

They are joy sticks.  Yes, we call them nubs.  They map just like a joy stick if the drivers are set right at the OS level.  The FPS games talk to the OS.  The OS talks to the hardware.

Sure, but most PC games are not designed for two mice or two joysticks, because typically, you only have one mouse. If you want to modify, say, a FPS so that left nub is walking and right nub is aiming (both continuous), you may have to alter the code a little bit - unless you're lucky and it is sufficiently configurable from game menus or config files.