WizardStan
Mega GP Mania
- Joined
- May 24, 2008
- Messages
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Ok then, that's your opinion, a fine opinion to have, just don't expect many people to agree with you.
[poll; updated] eMMC vs. uSD; modular eMMC
- Thread starter Granitehead
- Start date
comradekingu
Glowing ember
Not in the case of usb, but certainly for modular emmc over internal uSD, why wouldnt you? That was the point i was trying to make.
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WizardStan
Mega GP Mania
- Joined
- May 24, 2008
- Messages
- 16,731
For modular eMMC I wouldn't, but I was never questioning that. This entire discussion spawned from your statement that USB would be strictly better than microSD, I never said anything about anything else.
God Ginrai
Godmaster
The only thing I worry about modular eMMC is if it will be easy for users to find, cheap to purchase, and easy to install. Because microSD satisfies all 3 of those, and will continue satisfying these conditions for many years to come.
-God Ginrai
comradekingu
Glowing ember
So why would you go for then? I'm curious, what do you support, and what is the reasoning behind it? I thought potentially not being able to fit the added height in was what was holding modular emmc back, thats its weakness.
I see the uSD point, but its always going to be a worse option than regular SD. So really you end up having ideally one SD, one microSD and the OS on the other SD.
Im torn between modularity of uSD and the potential for fail on soldered nand, but i know i like modular eMMC best.
I think its like battery, its always possible to retrofit something in the future somehow, so im not so worried about the emmc connector.
I wonder if there is something better than uSD that fits in a uSD compatible connector.
I see the uSD point, but its always going to be a worse option than regular SD. So really you end up having ideally one SD, one microSD and the OS on the other SD.
Im torn between modularity of uSD and the potential for fail on soldered nand, but i know i like modular eMMC best.
I think its like battery, its always possible to retrofit something in the future somehow, so im not so worried about the emmc connector.
I wonder if there is something better than uSD that fits in a uSD compatible connector.
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Modular eMMC is just not something standard. I don't like proprietary solutions that would essentially force people to buy internal storage upgrades at ED's shop. I personally have no problem with having to shop at ED's shop , but it is not necessarily a future-proof solution, and we cannot expect ED to have all possible size and speed options in stock at a good price. I am against introducing proprietary connectors or cartridges if it can be avoided. We should use standard components wherever possible. I don't think that is possible with modular/replaceable eMMC.
So that leaves us with µSD and fixed eMMC.
Losing a potential factor of two in speed is a sacrifice I'm willing to make to gain a potential factor of 16 or more in size and internal storage that is easily user-replaceable. The potential speed advantage of eMMC is only there if we use the fastest possible eMMC that is currently available. Getting both the fastest and largest currently available eMMC would be a very expensive option that would increase the price of the Pyra a lot. Getting anything less than that would give even more advantage to a µSD solution.
Yes, compared to USB3 devices, a good SSD, or fast eMMC, µSD has a somewhat lower max speed. But compared to the NAND of the Pandora, USB2 devices, or spinning HDDs, µSD can be a significantly faster. It will be fast enough.
, but it is not necessarily a future-proof solution, and we cannot expect ED to have all possible size and speed options in stock at a good price. I am against introducing proprietary connectors or cartridges if it can be avoided. We should use standard components wherever possible. I don't think that is possible with modular/replaceable eMMC.So that leaves us with µSD and fixed eMMC.
Losing a potential factor of two in speed is a sacrifice I'm willing to make to gain a potential factor of 16 or more in size and internal storage that is easily user-replaceable. The potential speed advantage of eMMC is only there if we use the fastest possible eMMC that is currently available. Getting both the fastest and largest currently available eMMC would be a very expensive option that would increase the price of the Pyra a lot. Getting anything less than that would give even more advantage to a µSD solution.
Yes, compared to USB3 devices, a good SSD, or fast eMMC, µSD has a somewhat lower max speed. But compared to the NAND of the Pandora, USB2 devices, or spinning HDDs, µSD can be a significantly faster. It will be fast enough.
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Modular eMMC is just not something standard. I don't like proprietary solutions that would essentially force people to buy internal storage upgrades at ED's shop. I personally have no problem with having to shop at ED's shop
So that leaves us with µSD and fixed eMMC.
Losing a potential factor of two in speed is a sacrifice I'm willing to make to gain a potential factor of 16 or more in size and internal storage that is easily user-replaceable. The potential speed advantage of eMMC is only there if we use the fastest possible eMMC that is currently available. Getting both the fastest and largest currently available eMMC would be a very expensive option that would increase the price of the Pyra a lot. Getting anything less than that would give even more advantage to a µSD solution.
Yes, compared to USB3 devices, a good SSD, or fast eMMC, µSD has a somewhat lower max speed. But compared to the NAND of the Pandora, USB2 devices, or spinning HDDs, µSD can be a significantly faster. It will be fast enough.
I don't understand how you can eliminate modular eMMC in your logic. Somehow only being able to upgrade from one source has issues so then there must be no upgrade?! How does that work.
Really though how long into the future do we need to be able to buy these proprietary replaceable eMMC chips? I can see two years later buying a new big chip and being really happy with that and then done. First of all two years later prices are lower and second its a lot easier on the wallet to save up say $100 to upgrade something. Are you concerned about ten years later?
God Ginrai
Godmaster
Also, I don't see how ED would be able to sell everything between 4GB and 128GB modular eMMC, at various speed/price points for each size, for a good price. We just don't have the scale for that, so in practice, the number of options would be rather small.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
I dont think its proprietary, least the connector. Will do more research. What i worry the most about is that ED is boned the day nand starts failing when it shouldnt and its soldered to the board.
What is not necessarily a future-proof solution, isnt on the other hand forcing you to buy anything, just the connector. Soldered nand is _forcing_ you away from the ability to upgrade, unless you have a steady hand and a reflow solder oven...
Three options is options aplenty. If its user replacable its just base model pyra+ whatever mmc you want with it, or none.
Edit:
What is not necessarily a future-proof solution, isnt on the other hand forcing you to buy anything, just the connector. Soldered nand is _forcing_ you away from the ability to upgrade, unless you have a steady hand and a reflow solder oven...
Three options is options aplenty. If its user replacable its just base model pyra+ whatever mmc you want with it, or none.
Edit:
<citation needed>
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God Ginrai
Godmaster
comradekingu
Glowing ember
And your response to how that is the slowest option available?
Still fast enough. 100MB/s is not bad -- you can read the entire Pandora NAND in 5 seconds at that speed. I doubt the HDD in your desktop computer is that fast, and it will certainly have worse latency. If you really need more speed, make a RAM drive. Extra speed is always nice, but not if it means we're stuck with a fixed size. In any case the maximal difference in speed is a factor of two, and I doubt it would even be that much if we would get an eMMC today with a reasonable price/size/speed trade-off.
theredbaron
Very Active Member
Personally, how this is done will determine if I ever upgrade. If eMMC is used, I highly doubt I would ever upgrade. As has been mentioned, they will have to be bought from the Prya store. This is fine, for the most part, but does have limits. From limits on what type/speed there is access to, to the fact that the price will be a bit more per GB/speed.
With the SD, however, they are everywhere. They are also "evolving" pretty fast. Thus while right now an eMMC is faster, SD's can catch to it's GB/speed point pretty fast. Also an SD I would probable be able to upgrade every year, if only due to the ease of access. This means that, for me anyways, eMMC isn't the best choice in the long run.
Sent from my MB870
With the SD, however, they are everywhere. They are also "evolving" pretty fast. Thus while right now an eMMC is faster, SD's can catch to it's GB/speed point pretty fast. Also an SD I would probable be able to upgrade every year, if only due to the ease of access. This means that, for me anyways, eMMC isn't the best choice in the long run.
Sent from my MB870
SNESFAN
Retro game fanatic
red baron!?!?
:angry:
(I'm sure you're not the guy I'm thinking of)
:angry:
(I'm sure you're not the guy I'm thinking of)
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theredbaron
Very Active Member
I doubt it. Unless you also rec the avatar, as it is the same one I have used forever / the only one I have ever used, or known "him" as theredbaron1834.
Plus, the only one online who I can remember that dislikes me is some guy on reddit who was a GNU fanboy, and I am not.
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SNESFAN
Retro game fanatic
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If that is true and Micro SD will be faster than Pandora NAND then I would say go for the micro SD.
They will become faster as well.
And Pandora speed is already ok for me.
If it's faster than Pandora NAND micro SD will make the unit cheaper and gives Possibility to upgrade.
I prefer micro SD then.
And if we can get a dual adapter for SIM card and micro SD we'll also gain some space on the board.
Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
The way I see it, most current mobile devices that aren't dead cheap have eMMC chips instead of soldered down uSD cards. For these manufacturers there has to be a compelling cost vs quality reason to make this decision. Maybe it changes with economy of scale but I doubt it, if you get low quantities of SD cards you'll be paying a distributor their cut same as with eMMC; while SD cards may be more marketed for consumer purchase from the get go they're also commonly sold in brick and mortar stores that have a supposed markup.
I just don't see how this is a huge issue for a device with two full sized SD slots, with at least one of them being bootable.
Don't know why you guys are so paranoid about this. Has failing NAND yet to be a noteworthy problem with Pandora? Why was this never a talking point before?
I just don't see how this is a huge issue for a device with two full sized SD slots, with at least one of them being bootable.
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theredbaron
Very Active Member
Yeah, not mean. Never was on gp32x board before. Only portables I have had are a PSP, NDS, and a Ramos T10. Always wanted a Pandora, but never could get one. So I never went to those type of boards.
That is one of the reasons I would want the SD over the eMMC. If everything were static, then eMMC is better. But things are constantly changing and upgrading, thus I would prefer SD.
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