Piracy Eithics

[JDUK]

The window cleaning analogy is a very poor one. If you don't pay for the window service after it has been done they Copying a game does not take ANY resources from the company who made it. Such as paper, ink, discs and other packaging. Washing windows takes water, and soap. Two KEY resources to the window washer. lose both resources and time.(they could be washing other windows). You are not wasting the game companies time by using a digital copy. BUT I do agree that pirating games that are widely available is stealing...but man if piracy is stealing boy do I love it lol. I do not however steal from Gamepark and the developers due to my own personal love of Gp32. And my excuse for not buying games anymore is really just habit. Once you start getting games at the push of a button its hard to stop

Copying a game does not take ANY resources from the company who made it.

And by what screwed up logic do you work that out? It takes man hours to do programming, research, marketing, etc. Those "men" get paid for those hours when a company pays out for those man hours and gets little in return as they loose out to piracy they are buying a resource (that resouce being man hours, time is money, etc) with diminished returns becuase some gits are getting the games for free.

Copying a game does not take ANY resources from the company who made it. Such as paper, ink, discs and other packaging. Washing windows takes water, and soap. Two KEY resources to the window washer.

Ever had your windows washed? you provide the water all it took form him was a bit of soap. Hmm a cup of soap & 1 hour Vs hundreds of man hours :rolleyes:

Seriously you dont think it costs money to make games ? .... Well i dont think any ones stupid enough to assume that. So why assume stealing somthing with obvious production costs and market value will not cause some one to loose money ? that just doesnt ballance out.

 

[klay51]

You seem not to get it yet. Let' replace window washer with delivery pizza shop. Let's say I order a pizaa. The company spends money,resource,s time and everything ON MY ACCOUNT. I had a verbal agreement to pay the pizza company.They spend money BECAUSE I ordered it.(the window washer wastes time and money and resources because I told him I owuld pay). When did I EVER tell a company to make a game, and when EVER tell a company I would buy there game. I had no agreement to buy ANY game whatsoever. Yes, the company doens't make money if everyone pirates but pirating a game you never ever agreed or asked to have made or be produced is not the same as not paying for a pizza or a service(ike window cleaning) that you DID want and agree to pay for.

EDIT: LEt me make clear my stance. Piracy of games CAN cause loss of money but no necessarily and not in the direct fashion of once again ordering a pizza and not paying for it.

 

[JDUK]

EDIT: Let me rephrase...they do lose money from wasting they emplyoee time BUT the point is that doesnt compare in the same way with a video game degveloper as ill try to explain below. I'm just saying its a bad comaprison

Yes, I do. Did I order Bioware to create Knights of the Old Republic? No....I could care less. But did I tell the window washers I want this service, and that they will be compensated? YES. They did work with the promise I would buy. I would never buy certain games and the company should never expect ME to, I never told them I would....your sayign they are losing my oney...but they never had my money. But in the window analgoy i had guranteed them money. You must see its totally different.not only that its a service as opposed ot a product. You'll be hard pressed to put an air tight seal on this leaking analogy

You know when you install/load a game up and you just click "I agree" or "Yes" on that box with all that seemingly bullshit in it? yeh you know the one

THAT IS A LICENCE AGREEMENT. an agreement that you will not illegally copy the software you are using.

oh that would be like the agreement you arranged with the cleaner wouldn't it :rolleyes:

I didn't ask Ford to make the Mondeo ill just go and nick one then shall I, after all I didn't ask for them to make it, but I want to drive one so ill just take it, seeing as I didn't have an agreement with ford to custom make it for me :rolleyes: Isnt that your way of thinking?

 

[JDUK]

You seem not to get it yet. Let' replace window washer with delivery pizza shop. Let's say I order a pizaa. The company spends money,resource,s time and everything ON MY ACCOUNT. I had a verbal agreement to pay the pizza company.They spend money BECAUSE I ordered it.(the window washer wastes time and money and resources because I told him I owuld pay). When did I EVER tell a company to make a game, and when EVER tell a company I would buy there game. I had no agreement to buy ANY game whatsoever. Yes, the company doens't make money if everyone pirates but pirating a game you never ever agreed or asked to have made or be produced is not the same as not paying for a pizza or a service(ike window cleaning) that you DID want and agree to pay for.

Again replace "game" with a make of car. You never asked the car company to make thatcar on your behalf did you so stealing one is ok...... that just makes NO SENSE

 

[klay51]

It is a FACCCCT that when you for example do not pay for a service like ordering a pizza...That company WIL lose money. That is a fact.

It is not a fact that if you pirate a game the company will lose money. They may....they may not. If for example I'm waiting for Halo2 and when it comes out I dont have money so i pirated it. They lose a customer and money. Now, if I pirate Britney's Dance Beat a game that I would never have bought in the first place the company do not lose a customer or lose money. Once again, You cannot lose a customer or a thing that you never had. They Britney's dance beat never had me as a customer. They don't lose jack off me. The pizza place made a pizza because they 'had me' as a customer and I took that away from him. There is a difference my friend. Now lets get off this and get on topic huh? I've clearly explained there is a difference by now. The pizza/window/car issue CAN match up with the games issue in CERTAIN cases but it is not necessarily the same.

 

[JDUK]

No because stealing somthing is ok because you dont want what your stealing is the most ignorant argument in the book. Lots of factors come into effect.

to list a couple.

1) if your niece/sister/friend/whatever wanted you to copy Britney for her would you? most porbably yes. She would have brought it if she couldnt get a copy and you having a copy has lost that company money.

2) You have Halo2 copied you then lack motivation to purchace the game so you are not the garunteed customer your where if you did not have the copy (you might not bother or wait till budget, etc). What if its shit? you wont buy it, but its so hyped (remember they pay for that publicity) that if you didnt have a copy you probably would have brought it on day one. Not that that will stop you playing your copied version.

As you can see its not as cut & dry as previous examples make it seem but most ppl can apply those previous examples to real life, slightly more complex, scenarios without having to draw it out blow for blow.

And remember how ever moral you make your piracy sound (im talking piracy of games still on sale here) the piracy industry that supplies you supplies a few thousand more ppl who are not so inclined, you are helping the piracy industry thrive, and as a said before it DOES loose the media industry money otherwise it wouldnt be illigal.

 

[Mikel70]

WOW, what a lively debate!!

So the question is whether or not "piracy" is right or wrong. I think it's both. For a number of different reasons.

I agree whole heartedly that companies spend thousands (sometimes millions) producing games for different consoles. They must also pay the programmers, the packagers, artists for the packaging, etc. And the public, in return, spends millions purchasing the product.

Companies also spend millions producing new system (PS2, X-Box, and GameCube being what are called "Next-Gen" systems). The public, in return, spends millions purchasing the product.

Now, here's part of my point: Try sticking an SNES cartrige into a GameCube. There are very few systems that that are backward compatible (The PS2 and the GBA are the only two that I know of). The companies decided long ago that instead of making one product compatible with another, they would instead create completely new products that are completely incompatible with what has gone before. What about the public that spent millions in support of the product? There isn't a single company making NEW games for my SNES that I'm aware of. Nintendo stopped supporting the console long ago. In my ever so humble opinion, it is these "forgotten" consoles/games that are ok to "pirate". The programers and companies have already made their money on the product and moved on to something "bigger and better, leaving console after console in their wakes. In fact, the only console that I currently own and still purchase games for is my GBA (and some would argue that it's not a console, but a handheld. I digress.) I will ignore the morality on the pirates part. We have read all of the arguements where they are considered. But what of the moral responsibility to the company to support the product they have put out and the customers that have spent HUGE sums of money purchasing the product and games? Again, I ask, pop an SNES cartrige into a GameCube and try to play it. Nintendo wouldn't be the powerhouse it is if it weren't for the (paying) customers

Another point is money. I too have purchased games that were absolute garbage, being lured in by pretty boxes and nice screenshots. I have taken them home, ripped open the packaging, popped them into my console, and they turned out to be GARBAGE. This I blame mostly on retailers and their return policies. I agree with the "try-before-you-buy" mentallity. How many times do you try on a pair of shoes before you purchase them? Or better yet a new shirt? There isn't a retailer (again that I'm aware of) that will allow you to actually PLAY the game before purchasing it. They will, however, allow you to purchase the game, and take it home. If you don't like it, you have two choices 1) Keep it or 2) Take it back and exchange it for the SAME EXACT GAME!!! If the shirt you purchased doesn't match the pants you bought it to with, do you take it back to exchange it for an IDENTICLE one in THE SAME SIZE???? No, you exchange it for something more your taste. In addition to that, the games are rather expensive. Try getting a new GBA game for less than $30. This is a far cry from the $8 game used in a previous example. And that's just for a handheld console. I don't own a "next-gen" console, although I'm thinking about getting one. I cringe at the thought, though, of spending all that money on the system AND games, only to have the company decide in a few short years to move onto something bigger and better. Progress is a good thing in some respects, we get new items. But it also sucks because because what we have becomes obsolete at someones elses descretion

There are those that will download the rom and play in on an emulator. Yes, there are some that will only play on their emulators, but there are others that will actually go out and buy the game. An example of this would be as follows (and mind you, it has nothing to do with games): I have EVERY episode of Smallville downloaded and burned to CD. Half of these episodes I have also taken the time to convert to VCD. But I recently found out that the entire first season will becoming out on DVD in either Aug or Oct (getting old, can't remember which month). Even though I already have all of the episodes, and I can play half of them on my DVD player, I will STILL buy the DVD set when it comes out. Why? Because I want them to make more. I want to make certain that the product that I am paying for is still supported by the company putting it out. You support a good product by purchasing said product so that more will come out.

To sum up, I'll put it like this:
Old, unsupported systems/consoles: "Piracy OK"
New, supported systems/consoles: "Piracy Bad"

The bottom line is this, no one will EVER be able to stop piracy, but there are certain steps that both companies AND retailers can take to at least slow it's progress. Try-before-you-buy from the retailers, and intercompatibility or longer lasting support for "older" product from the companies. These are all non-drastic ideas that don't cost much and have better, longer lasting results.

Again, my opinion.
I'm outty

 

[Chip]

The window washer comparison is not entirely valid.

If it takes 1 minute to clean a wondow, and the washer is paid 1$ per window, he makes 1$ per minute. It's a set rate. He HAS to spend x minutes to make x dollars. There is a direct correlation between the effort he expends and the money he makes.

Software/music/movies are different. A programmer spends x hours coding a piece of software. Whether 1 person buys it or 10 million people buy it, it took him x hours. There is no correlation between effort expended and money made.

This does not make software piracy right. It only makes your analogy wrong.

 

[klay51]

I'm not even sure what your getting at, Maybe your saying that if you copy something that you "want it" well, yes but that doesnt mean i would buy it or would have bought it. I copy games, movies and whatnot all the time that I wouldnt buy otherwise because the effort to get them is so minimal. I could out a game into my xbox and in under 1o presses of the A button have that game copied and ready to play. But that doesnt mean I would have paid $50 for it. Therefore they did not lose a customer. Now ill gve you a real exampkle of when they did lose a customer. I pirated Linkin Park Meteora. I planned on buying it after i burnt it but I was short on money so I never did. BUT I would have if it werent for the copy. I guess thats how you decide if they lose or not...If you would have bought it had it not for the pirated version the cmpnay losses money. If not they do not. Especially in the direct way Pizza Hut loses money when u order pizza and then dont pay. You can't argue that. And that is aLL I am arguing...that the comparison is not very good. You can't compare them so directly and simply as you did in your analogy unless your goin for a false analogy

 

[JDUK]

@ Mikel70

Nice argument. Though i think there is only one games retailer on the high street near me who will only replace like for like (Woolies)

All other shops let you try before you buy and return up to 10 days later, no quible, cash back, same with internet companies. Its not hard to find any where offering this.

Buying rubbish or buying from somewhere that does not have no quible returns policy is YOUR responcibility so the try before you buy thing doesnt float with me.

 

[klay51]

If it takes 1 minute to clean a wondow, and the washer is paid 1$ per window, he makes 1$ per minute. It's a set rate. He HAS to spend x minutes to make x dollars. There is a direct correlation between the effort he expends and the money he makes.

Software/music/movies are different. A programmer spends x hours coding a piece of software. Whether 1 person buys it or 10 million people buy it, it took him x hours. There is no correlation between effort expended and money made.

This does not make software piracy right. It only makes your analogy wrong.

Yet ANOTHER hole in the analogy. Jduk your Waaaay over simplifying it. But as said "This does not make software piracy right noly your analogy wrong"

 

[JDUK]

If it takes 1 minute to clean a wondow, and the washer is paid 1$ per window, he makes 1$ per minute. It's a set rate. He HAS to spend x minutes to make x dollars. There is a direct correlation between the effort he expends and the money he makes.

Software/music/movies are different. A programmer spends x hours coding a piece of software. Whether 1 person buys it or 10 million people buy it, it took him x hours. There is no correlation between effort expended and money made.

This does not make software piracy right. It only makes your analogy wrong.

Yet ANOTHER hole in the analogy. Jduk your Waaaay over simplifying it. But as said "This does not make software piracy right noly your analogy wrong"

Yet you miss the whole point in almost every thing i have posted the point of that analogy was not for it to be total microcosm of the piracy issue! look back to what it is a reply to (yes actualy read the whole thread) it was reffering to the fact that Just because piracy isnt theft of actual "oh look i can reach out and touch it" property that it is still stealing. Just like the window cleaner hasnt given you somthing you can hold and go "Look i have somthing new" not paying him is theft.

You want to talk holes in analogy, try your i didnt custom order it so im allowed to steal it as long as i dont want it argument.

 

[klay51]

I don't see how anyone could say that pirating current games FOR ANY REASON is right, it's intellectual property, its illegal. It's having 'code' u dont have the right to own.

 

[klay51]

You want to talk holes in analogy, try your i didnt custom order it so im allowed to steal it as long as i dont want it argument.

That is not what I said. I do not condone pirating of current games in any fashion. The point is. You order the service of a window wash. Therefore you 'guarantee' them money. You do not guarantee game companies money so they are not expecting it from everyone, only expecting it from people who think its worth it and do not necessarily lose money. There are no holes in that. Maybe I ave misinterpreted the point of your analogy, if that is the case I apologize. I completely nderstand the spirit of your post though I think we could agree it oculd have been presented better

 

[JDUK]

There is no correlation between effort expended and money made.

Well thats not totaly true: effort expended = better game (or it should with the right team) = more sales = more money made.

And the programers are resources to the company just as soap is to the window cleanner

Effort>Quality>Sales>Money


If NO one wants their windows washed the cleaners stil spent X on soap just as the Games company stil spent X on production costs even if no one brought the game.

Again its not ment to be an example of piracy as a whole just to show you should pay for what you use/take and gauging a products retail value(or lack off if u decide to steal it) is just not your place you should either pay and have or not & not have.

 

[generalnmx]

One cannot relate electronic copies in the same manner as physical entities. Some examples:

Action: I steal one apple from the grocer.
Result: Grocer has one less apple.

Action: I steal a car stereo from someone's car.
Result: One less car stereo in that person's car.

"Stealing" is the act of taking something tangible away from someone. As a copy is being exploited, the only tangible thing one could take away from them is one's own buisness. This is indeed a quantity - they could have one less customer. However, we are people, not things. We are beings of our own free will, so to say that software piracy is always morally right or wrong falls under the same catagory as most decisions - there is no universal truth. Software piracy can be used for good, as well as evil. We can take the morally wrong path, or take the morally right path. It's really all about the intent of the action that determines its moral fortitude.

 

[klay51]

Unfourtunately in todays world quality can but does not always effect sales. I wouldnt consider Tomb Raider a great game but it sells, along with more crap and more crap. And AWESOME titles just sit on the shelves not being bought. It seems mostly about marketing these days. Granted of course a good game can increase sales. There have surely always been bad gaems but lately gaming seems like its going downhill

 

[JDUK]

You do not guarantee game companies money

Again...

Games have licensing agreement !

you are (well your supposed to be) 'guaranteeing them money for use of the software, these no ifs or buts when you install it you are (again supposed) to be guaranteeing them money for their service.

And im too sorry if I misunderstood your use of the whole pizza thing it seemed as if you were angling that only products with pre agreed purchase should be eligible for fair trade. Looks like i got the wrong end of the stick on that one.

 

[klay51]

"Stealing" is the act of taking something tangible away from someone. As a copy is being exploited, the only tangible thing one could take away from them is one's own buisness. This is indeed a quantity - they could have one less customer. However, we are people, not things. We are beings of our own free will, so to say that software piracy is always morally right or wrong falls under the same catagory as most decisions - there is no universal truth. Software piracy can be used for good, as well as evil. We can take the morally wrong path, or take the morally right path. It's really all about the intent of the action that determines its moral fortitude.

Amen. Stealing a tangible item MUST result in a loss. Making illegal copies May or MAY not result in a loss

 

[JDUK]

One cannot relate electronic copies in the same manner as physical entities. Some examples:

Action: I steal one apple from the grocer.
Result: Grocer has one less apple.

Action: I steal a car stereo from someone's car.
Result: One less car stereo in that person's car.

"Stealing" is the act of taking something tangible away from someone. As a copy is being exploited, the only tangible thing one could take away from them is one's own buisness. This is indeed a quantity - they could have one less customer. However, we are people, not things. We are beings of our own free will, so to say that software piracy is always morally right or wrong falls under the same catagory as most decisions - there is no universal truth. Software piracy can be used for good, as well as evil. We can take the morally wrong path, or take the morally right path. It's really all about the intent of the action that determines its moral fortitude.

Every thing has its moral ups and downs i was hoping we could discuss it in broader strokes that case by case analasis.

Killing is bad but if shot a guy who was going to jump out and kill you for no reason that would be putting it to good use.

Stealing to feed a herion habit is bad, stealing to feed your starving chaild is putting it to good use.

I think where all pretty together on piracy of unavialable software is somthing we make a moral choice on as it seems the morals of it are fairly obvious.

Its just that murky moral swamp of piracy of comercialy viable products and we're all pretty friendly folk who can swap disagreable insults about it in good humor .