Pandora Standard File Format?

[Blah]

Lets not reinvent the wheel here for the sake of a couple of cycles. No stupid file extensions.

 

[CoMiKe]

I'm with Squidge, we need a file extension.

About icons, the best would be to have an icon folder somewhere and not be limited to .ico, but also .png, .gif, etc...

 

[Chip]

Lets not reinvent the wheel here for the sake of a couple of cycles. No stupid file extensions.

If Linux doesn't care either way, you might as well have a common executable extension. The whole point of extensions is to let you know what kind of file a file is at a glance. Either in a GUI file browser or when you type "dir" at a command prompt, extensions help you organize. I don't care what extension you pick, but you have to pick one.

 

[Squidge]

A launcher doesn't need to open all files itself in order to check if they're executable. The file utility can check the mimetype of a file.

Which still doesn't stop the launcher showing files which the developer doesn't want to show to a simple launcher. The idea is that an application could have several executables, but the main executable that the launcher runs is the only one viewable to the user.

And then there's the issue of scripting languages that can't be compiled to an executable (runtime duplication

The main executable for the script would have the executable extension, so the launcher would execute it regardless, and linux would with how to execute it (ie. launch python interpreter for it)

QUOTE

installation/removal. When installed, each package can make links to the proper executables or .



Why do you need links? If it's a shell script (for example), the first line will tell you the interpreter and path.

QUOTE

desktop files (which would solve the icon issue)



So an installer updates a ".desktop" file? Bad idea, it prevents people popping out there sd card, copying a file from there pc to it and popping it back in.

QUOTE

Also, .pex would probably create some confusion, since windows .exe's are actually called poartable executables (dunno why since they aren't portable at all).



Fair enough. It doesn't have to be three letters, but if people put Windows .exe on the card, they know they will not work (and the same if they rename them) so it doesn't matter that much.

 

[GnoStiC]

we definitely need an extension and i second the pxe or pex OR just px

 

[craigix]

Yeah they have to have an extension so it's easy to identify the (main) exe in a folder of files via a quick dir or just by looking. There is no point in changing how that works when people are used to it from the GP32 and GP2X.

I quite like .PEX it sounds pretty good. Pex was also a character in Doctor Who, alas I can't find a picture of him.

Orkie I said I'm happy for you to work on your install system, I just think people will want to have zip compatability and are used to it from the GP32 and GP2X. Even my mother knows how to use zip files. Just allowing the pandora to run the zip seems nice and easy for everyone, zip is a pretty estabilished format now, it isn't going to go away.

And on the subject of installing things:

We don't want anything being installed on the NAND including non standard libs, we want programs to include any libs in their own folders so everything is neat and tidy and runs without issues (no looking or asking for libs from elsewhere), I hate the way windows becomes bloated with libs everywhere and we have a limited amount of NAND to work with.

If I want to 'uninstall' something all I want to do is delete the folder the program made, not hunt around the NAND or other folders looking for files.

We want to keep the Pandora like this across the board, very simple and easy to manage, we don't want to make anything complex which can be easy, at least for casual users.

 

[A_SN]

It all comes down to the launcher used, which will most likely choose a method based on speed. How fast will reading a directory to find executables based on extensions be compared to opening every file to determine if it's an ARM ELF? Well, the first of course, so it's likely that there will become some standard form of file extension.

huh? Wouldn't you rather rely on the executable flag?

 

[Alex.]

And on the subject of installing things:

We don't want anything being installed on the NAND including non standard libs, we want programs to include any libs in their own folders so everything is neat and tidy and runs without issues

What libs are considered standard, and which non standard? Is SDL standard? It would be nice for it to be included in the firmware for dynamic linking, no reason to bloat every package with something that's used in 90% of all software Or perhaps by non-standard you meant interpreters and sandboxes like Python, Java, or Fenix?

 

[Sphinxter]

And on the subject of installing things:

We don't want anything being installed on the NAND including non standard libs, we want programs to include any libs in their own folders so everything is neat and tidy and runs without issues

What libs are considered standard, and which non standard? Is SDL standard? It would be nice for it to be included in the firmware for dynamic linking, no reason to bloat every package with something that's used in 90% of all software Or perhaps by non-standard you meant interpreters and sandboxes like Python, Java, or Fenix?


I'm with you in spirit but my God, the versioning, dealing with the versioning of dynamic libraries and underlying inter-dependencies is to open the seventh gate of hell. If it was a perfect world and there was only going to be one version of the firmware and never an upgrade dynamic all the way but in the long haul given what the users will probably mash up all sorts of environments I have to side with Craig, neatness counts far more than anything else. One directory per program and everyone should swear an oath not to step out of theirs.

 

[fusion_power]

we definitely need an extension and i second the pxe or pex OR just px

Yupp, Extensions are very useful for overview, filtering, sorting etc. PEX sounds good, PXE sounds more like a Gaming Console XD.

And on the subject of installing things:

We don't want anything being installed on the NAND including non standard libs, we want programs to include any libs in their own folders so everything is neat and tidy and runs without issues

What libs are considered standard, and which non standard? Is SDL standard? It would be nice for it to be included in the firmware for dynamic linking, no reason to bloat every package with something that's used in 90% of all software Or perhaps by non-standard you meant interpreters and sandboxes like Python, Java, or Fenix?

I have no clue about these "libs" etc. But wasn't mentioned, that "Dynamic linking" can make applications faster compared to "static linking"? I thought there was such a theme in combination with the GP2X. And faster is better I think. But of course I also want my system "clean" and I can understand, why Craigix want to keep the NAND free. ".dll-chaos" like under Windows is the last thing we want .

 

[Svartalf]

Lets not reinvent the wheel here for the sake of a couple of cycles. No stupid file extensions.

If Linux doesn't care either way, you might as well have a common executable extension. The whole point of extensions is to let you know what kind of file a file is at a glance. Either in a GUI file browser or when you type "dir" at a command prompt, extensions help you organize. I don't care what extension you pick, but you have to pick one.


You don't HAVE to pick anything. .EXE or .COM doesn't equate immediately to executable on Windows. You've got a myriad more of them- and you can have non executable files that have those extensions on them. Now, having said this, a good nomenclature might not be a bad idea, but you don't HAVE to do anything with this.

I have no clue about these "libs" etc. But wasn't mentioned, that "Dynamic linking" can make applications faster compared to "static linking"? I thought there was such a theme in combination with the GP2X. And faster is better I think. But of course I also want my system "clean" and I can understand, why Craigix want to keep the NAND free. ".dll-chaos" like under Windows is the last thing we want .

Dynamic linking of key runtimes is probably a good idea. glibc would be the main one that won't drift TOO much. As long as you explicitly constrain the environment, however, you'll want to either drag along your own versions of the .so's and either LD_PRELOAD or set the LD_LIBRARY_PATH (messy...but some of the pro studios do this on Linux titles...) or statically link the things for app validation purposes. LGP goes the selective dynamic link, statically linked bulk of the libraries route for breadth of support for Linux distributions. (I know what I'm talking about here...my name's credited with Ballistics, it's about to be credited with Bandits... )

What happens with .so files is that for any given version, they're loaded ONCE into system memory. It's not going to make things "faster" in the sense of the first load into memory, but subsequent loads will keep the code for the .so in RAM/Swap (if present) so that you don't load them again and again. If, for example, you've brought up a browser and need to bring up email at the same time, you don't want to be bringing up the hooks into the TCP stack twice, which is what static linkage would do. IF Pandora does the dynamic link thing with everything, you'll need to adopt the same philosophy that Angstrom and Maemo have adopted and constrain your usages of the .so's to the specific ones that are blessed and if someone updates, they may be clean on their own.

 

[atomicthumbs]

.wtf, to appease the Internet

 

[Svartalf]

.wtf, to appease the Internet

:lol:

I'm keen on ".pe" if you're keen on having an extension type in the nomenclature.

Why that? "Pandora Executable". .PEX and .PXE have been used for other things, but if you're wanting a
three letter one, use .pex/.PEX as .PXE will be confused with the network boot framework for x86 class
workstations.

 

[EGA]

Yeah they have to have an extension so it's easy to identify the (main) exe in a folder of files via a quick dir or just by looking.

Agree, it's easier for everyone even as you may make use of the x flag.

And on the subject of installing things:
[...]
If I want to 'uninstall' something all I want to do is delete the folder the program made, not hunt around the NAND or other folders looking for files.

Whooooohooooo, I can't agree more with you. I was thinking about buying a GP2X F200 or a Pandora (reading this forums for about 2 months) but now I've made my choice (I'll wait for Pandora). Thank you very much.

 

[Sphinxter]

Another question once you figure out how to identify the main program executable is how to associate it's icon.

 

[Squidge]

huh? Wouldn't you rather rely on the executable flag?

Which is fine on a standard Linux box, but can't be guaranteed when your using fat32 on an sd card. Does fat32 even have an execute flag? I thought they were just "HSRA - Hidden System ReadOnly Archive".

Another question once you figure out how to identify the main program executable is how to associate it's icon.

For simpliciity, I'd say we just have a file with the same name as the executable, but with a .png, .jpg, or .bmp ending. Eg. prog.px.png. Yes, it could look neater having it stashed away somewhere else, but that alienates ease of use - people can't then create custom icons and use them as easily.

 

[Orkie]

I'm keen on ".pe" if you're keen on having an extension type in the nomenclature.

Why that? "Pandora Executable". .PEX and .PXE have been used for other things, but if you're wanting a
three letter one, use .pex/.PEX as .PXE will be confused with the network boot framework for x86 class
workstations.

But PE is the format Microsoft uses for Windows .

 

[javaJake]

Seeing we will go with a non-standard format for directories, will there be a method or utility to reconfigure .deb software to install on the Pandora? If we lock ourselves in to just our own stuff, we lose the entire Debian ARM repository (something I'm sure we've all been looking forward to using).

 

[Svartalf]

But PE is the format Microsoft uses for Windows .

Aaaagh... Wash my mouth out with Dove dish soap... I can't believe I just said that!

Which is fine on a standard Linux box, but can't be guaranteed when your using fat32 on an sd card. Does fat32 even have an execute flag? I thought they were just "HSRA - Hidden System ReadOnly Archive".

Arrgh... FAT32! Make the nasty filesystem GO AWAY!

Looking at what a straight-up "mount /dev/foo" on a USB Thumb formatted FAT32 ends up doing, it's not at all pretty. It mounts everything as 755 in the directory structure under the mount- meaning it thinks EVERYTHING is executable. Keeping in mind that you'll need a custom loader to handle whatever extensions and IGNORE anything flat-out that doesn't have this extension...

Heh... Perhaps "PBE"?

 

[Game_over]

.deb and .pex/.pxe/.pan can and should be all recognizable in the file system. We need a universal format for common knowledge of the formats used for executables.

-side note
.rar is just as used as .zip


In regards to version updates for libs, couldn't there be a system that checks for updates every time a system?