Pandora should leave Angstrom

[McLovin]

I hope this won't end in a war, but still I want to start this discussion.


As Hotfix 6 is the last of this kind, I think it's just about time to list pros and cons and define the future.


Angstrom doesn't fit this community well. While it's the only system that directy targets our architecture, the repos are lacking, always outdated, small and bugs are everywhere. The community is so small, even documentation is horribly lacking.


Arch linux on the other hand is always up-to-date, has an awesome community by itself. Wejips kernel is already superior to the one we have in angstrom. With a complete switch to arch, i'm sure we will have a better os in a matter of weeks.


NAND would therefor get a pure /home partition, which isn't bad by itself. It would make trying different distibutions just so much more comfortable and allow the user to have optimised systems for different uses. Small SD-Cards are cheap and probably easier to deploy then the nand. The time safed might be worth more then the cards cost.


The bigger size of the sd-cards would allow us to hold a compatibility stack in /libs/pnd that would also be portable to other distributions.


The AUR is probably the best argument for Arch-Linux. It's do-it-yourself mentality fits this community so well, we would see a gigantic increase of usable software. It would also alow us to directly target the pandora's architecture and create our own repo with recompiled software, that is still as dependable as the official. Making the biggest contra obsolete.

 

[TrashyMG]

Has anyone thrown together a build to try out? Personally my experience with Debian and slackware on the Pandora makes me appreciate Angstrom and how optimized it is for the Arm Cortex-A8.

 

[Hoodoo]

Oh come on. Whoever can tell one distribution from another is capable of switching a distro on Pandora for himself. It's just a matter of time. Especially when it comes to installing the system to an SD card.


So whoever doesn't want Angstrom should leave it.


Again, one rootfs snapshot worths more than any number of words.

 

[sebt3]

Angstrom doesn't fit this community well. While it's the only system that directy targets our architecture, the repos are lacking, always outdated, small and bugs are everywhere. The community is so small, even documentation is horribly lacking.

The angstrom distro is rather up-to-date. But we use an old angstrom release currently.


To the topic tittle : Nice idea, would you please tell us which distribution should we use ? (no arch wont works) Here is 3 simples pre-requisite we have to match :


- Small install base so it fit within the NAND.


- Installable on NAND


- Dont do useless read/write operation to NAND which could wear out NAND.


So far I only know angstrom that fit these 3 criterias.

 

[Darkknight512]

I have never actually seen a piece of flash memory wear out, what's the rating on the NAND in the Pandy? Also is there wear leveling in the NAND controller?

 

[EvilDragon]

Angström is pretty fine for our purposes.


As sebt3 said, it's just that we based our image on a very old Angström version (we had to rush the image back then), which cannot easily be updated.


Current Angström is up-to-date and DJWillis is working on that and is making sure, that our OpenPandora Stuff is only an overlay to the normal Angström image - which means: We should always be able to use the latest Angström version on our Pandora.


Arch is neat, but just for SD Install, as is Ubuntu, Debian or any other distribution.


I want to support these ports in the future, but not for the internal storage, but for SD Card boot.

 

[fusion_power]

Arch linux on the other hand is always up-to-date, has an awesome community by itself. Wejips kernel is already superior to the one we have in angstrom. With a complete switch to arch, i'm sure we will have a better os in a matter of weeks.

AFAIK does his Arch Linux not even run PND's yet, not to mention of missing Drivers for nealy everything Pandora important. How do you think should do this work within "weeks" :huh:

 

[Pickle]

I also dont think it hurts mentioning that pandora is open so there is nothing stopping the original poster or anyone else from supporting an alternative OS themselves even though alternative OS is not supported by OP.

 

[Hoodoo]

You can take the kernel from hf6 and stick it into almost any distro. Then you are to find where some config files go and steal them too, and you'll have your Archlinux or Debian setup within hours.

I also dont think it hurts mentioning that pandora is open so there is nothing stopping the original poster or anyone else from supporting an alternative OS themselves even though alternative OS is not supported by OP.

Exactly!

 

[Prometheus]

Arch is neat, but just for SD Install, as is Ubuntu, Debian or any other distribution.


I want to support these ports in the future, but not for the internal storage, but for SD Card boot.

I'm glad to hear this. I like more options, but I do prefer booting from the NAND, since I always have both SD Card slots in use and sometimes need to remove them whilst running to add bits and bobs (and that's not something that running from an SD Card in one slot is particularly conducive to).

 

[McLovin]

Wow. I'm in this community for years now. Joined this forum on day one. Recieved my pandora for actually ordering early and waiting. Referring to me as "that person" or "the original poster" is so impolite, I'm hurt.


@ Hoodoo: Wejips plug-apps port is a one-man project up to now. Installing it really is easy and therefor I'm using it. Investing time in developing it I'm unsure cause of the small userbase. The option is still no argument. With the small number of pandoras in use, defaults are extremely important. Making it default would be the most effective way to make the Arch-Build comfortable and complete, though it would be a drawback at first. Baking the old kernel would do no good, except for the graphics-driver, that may as well be ported by someone who actually has access to the kit.


@Sebt you are ignoring a big part of what I wrote to apply an argument you repeat since years. The System should fit in nand but not write there. That's no necessarity at all. We have 2 sd-slots, the nand is small and therefor restricting. Having the OS on SD by default is an option, a good one if you ask me.


@ED happy birthday! Never said Arch should go on nand, just that it might be wise to be made the default os of the future. Feels like I'm hitting some tabus here, everyone tries to ignore


@Fusion_Power graphics driver really is missing and notaz is the only person to bring that, afaik. I don't see him doing that unless Arch gets the system of choice. Out of that, driver module deployment, especially for external hardware, is actually a lot easier on arch, because of the nature of the AUR. The wifi-driver - for example - feels more reliable on arch already.


PND-support isn't there. That's why I mentioned a compatibility-stack in a fitting directory. pnd-run would need to be adopted to use it, but my guess is the problem will be the same with whatever os will come next, as new and missing libraries will break pnds. That also applies to an updated angstrom image.


@pickle: see above for my arguments.

 

[Pickle]

Wow. I'm in this community for years now. Joined this forum on day one. Recieved my pandora for actually ordering early and waiting. Referring to me as "that person" or "the original poster" is so impolite, I'm hurt.

McLovin McLovin McLovin McLovin, better? ;-)

 

[McLovin]

yeah, a lot

 

[sebt3]

@Sebt you are ignoring a big part of what I wrote to apply an argument you repeat since years. The System should fit in nand but not write there. That's no necessarity at all. We have 2 sd-slots, the nand is small and therefor restricting. Having the OS on SD by default is an option, a good one if you ask me.

The "dont write to nand" is the easy part and the least important. The hard part is : booting correctly from an UBIFS on NAND.


Also the "dont put in the image useless stuff to actually run" is a must if you want to fit as much feature as possible on our NAND. Most desktop distro sucks at that part. If you dont trust me, have a look at your usr/share directory. Half the stock (and weight) is useless 99% of the time and available on the net the last 1%

 

[McLovin]

well, I guess 90% of my /usr/share are gamedata and icons, but I see where you're coming from. Still, this only applies if you want the os, especially the whole base, on nand. I don't see why this is really necessary, though I can see it can be handy from time to time.


first sd-card for os and all apps and data you need regularly, second sd-card for current use, like romsets, music and additional pnds. That's a well sorted system and frees us from restrictions of nand.


Then we can discuss if the nand can't be made better use of then holding the os. depending on access times, it could be used for swap or as the home-partition. Any other ideas?

 

[Pickle]

McLovin, you cant force or expect that the user is going to use any of the sd's. The OS has to be able to run without the expectation that either sd slot is in use. Theres also risk with using a sd card for the os if the user pops out the card.


Now theres nothing wrong or preventing *you* from running the setup you want, and in fact this is the method others are using for alternative OS's. I dont see how theres any way the official OS can run on anything other than the nand.

 

[McLovin]

well, i give up.

 

[Pickle]

well, i give up.

guess it didnt really matter that much then

 

[valhalla]

Does the (current - existing) AUR even work for arm? AFAIK most PKGBUILDs in AUR include just i686 and x86_64 in the arch variable.


IMHO a distro that is actually officially supported on arm by upstream is surely better than some one-man-show port with an upstream that only works on PCs.

 

[McLovin]

well, i see that noone wants a drastic change like that and can accept it. Didn't think everyone would come out and agree with me, but the feedback is unisono. I might have earned more agreement with asking for a switch to android or ios. ^^


Still I think it would hold tremendous potential. A desktop linux distribution was what I hoped for when I ordered my pandora, but the system we have frustrates me. The desktop distros need a lot of work. As I have to buy a smartphone soonish I may actually sell my pandora, if the situation stays as it is. Not sure.


About AUR: it works and PKGBUILDS can be edited or cloned.