Pandora outdated?

[benjiro]

Errm, while it's fast, it's not THAT frightening fast, to be honest.


I don't know whether there were any Cortex A8 devices out in 2008 already (I don't think so, the first appeared mid 2009 AFAIK), but one of the first smartphones (if not the first?) that used the A8 was the iPhone 3GS from Apple, released June 2009.


The iPhone4 still used an A8 (released June 2010), the first iPhone to use an A9 is the iPhone4S (available since October 2011).

Problem with the iPhone4 comparison, is that fact that the software is tailored like a console, to draw out the maximum of the device. You will see plenty of Apple Fanatics gladly point out how the iOs kicks Androids behind in smooth operating.


Second point, the Pandora is NOT a smartphone. Its way more bigger then almost any smartphone. Maybe not always in length, but it double as thick as any smartphone.


Cortex A8 where out in 2008. Maybe you forgot, when the first batch of pre-orders was for the Pandora? September 2008. At that time, there where multiple devices with a Cortex A8 announced or shipping. With the Pandora being one of those devices to make people drool. Do you remember how the Pandora was promoted as a kick ass high tech system, with a CPU that very few devices had? I do.


Now that the Pandora its Cpu is considered ancient in this industry,, your defending it like it is kicking everybody there behind. Wake up call .. no its not.

There were no Smartphones (AFAIK) with an A9 before 2011, the first A9 development boards were available end of 2010.


And the next generation, the A15 CPUs won't see devices before 2013.

Make that 2012. Double Core A15's smartphones are expected to ship mid 2012. Only the Quad Core A15's are expected later. Do not forget about the Krait also.

So technically, the Pandora is one generation behind (about half a year, compared to Smartphones), and the next generation is yet to come.

You are comparison generation, but not potential power. Sure, from a generation point of view, its just A8 -> A9.


But you forget that while the Pandora stayed at a Single Core Solution, the market has moved from Single, to Dual Core, from Dual Core, to now already Quad Core.


Lets compare it to potential power?


Pandora: Single Core 800Mhz A8


Tegra 3: Quad Core 1.3Ghz A9


The move to A9, gives you a 20% increase clock by clock. Then you have another 70% increase from the faster CPU clock. On a Single core configuration, a modern A9, already hits almost twice the potential speed. Then you need to add the fact that we are dealing with dual or quad cores. Giving any Quad Core device, a potential ( and very theoretical ), power increase up to 8 times what a Pandora does now.


You can claim all you want that its just one generation, the fact is, the current setup is considered ancient. And don't give me that: But you can overclock it argument. So can any other recent device.

The iPhone3GS is still sold at 369EUR in Germany, though it's produced by a company that produces millions of devices, so production costs are at a friction of the costs the Pandora has.


The iPhone4 is still 519EUR, and a Pandora with a DM3730 will not be far away from those specs.

The iPhone4 is from when again? 2010, that is almost 1.5 years ago.


The iPhone & Co are a bit of a exception to the typical market rule, because its brand driven. They keep there price much better ( even second hand ), then any other device, thank to the brand. The Pandora is not brand driven.


If you think your in the same league as Apple, then we are talking about being serious delusional. Last time i checked, you are not running a multi billion pure profit company? Nor does the Pandora have any branding.


And those prices are for sim-free devices. They actually charge crazy prices for those. The market is a lot smaller, and again. Apple ...

So you want to compare a system made by a few people in low numbers, mostly produced and manufactured outside of China (except for the bare PCBs and the cases) to a system produced in a number of millions, by low-wages workers, that's using some ripped-off emulators as well as probably a lot other unlicensed stuff in there? (I know China even clones SoCs, don't know if that's the case here, but it could be).


Sorry, but I'd rather sell the Pandora in less numbers for a higher price, just to be able to produce it in a country that isn't know to have basically slavery work...

That those "Chinese" slave labor can produce a device that not only rivals your, but even exceeds it, for a fraction of the cost.


Lets take that JXD S7100 again:


Do you want to claim here, that assembly in Europe justifies the Pandora to cost 3 to 4 times, the price for similar devices made in China? Those guys have the same "low" quantity problem as you have, so that is not a argument.


The ripped-off emulators. Come on EvilDragon, you call that a argument? What are all the Emulators that the Pandora runs? Yea, they are also ripped of on existing work of other people. Some may have been optimized for the Pandora, by developers, but that is where it stops. Its not like the Pandora is running exclusively developed brand new emulators. They are just as ripped of from other projects.


Do you think that JXD started as a big company? They also started small first. The difference is, they moved with the times, and where not stuck in the past. The Pandora feels like its still stuck in 2008.

Hmm... let me see.


1. Produced in a proper wages country, not China.


2. Produced in low numbers, so parts cost a lot more (just producing 10,000 at once would half the costs! Imagine Smartphone numbers!)


3. The damage a certain PCB production company caused us need to be somehow recovered.


4. It doesn't make profit with games or is sponsored with contracts, etc. unlike other devices (like iPhone, PSP Vita, Android Smartphones, etc.)

1. See the other topic about your wage bias.


Based on this logic, that means that a car produced in Europe, needs to cost 3 to 4 times the price of one made in Asia?


Wages are part of the reason for price differences, but it can not justify this price, for the hardware that is inside.


2. Nobody denies that.


3. How about making them pay for it? Actually, that bring up that whole bank problem again from a few years ago.


4:


IPhone is not sponsored, and they actually make a lot of Profit on those. They just ask extreme prices for it ( and they can get away with it. Again Pandora ... no brand name ).


PSP Vita is sold with a small loss ( so yes, technically its sponsored ), the reason is not parts of assembly, what covers the cost & profit, but you also have the R&D, and Marketing, and developers support.


And i will say it again. If you want to compare to Apple prices & products, you are way out of your league, and comparing a way different market. There are plenty of Smartphone's that go beyond the iPhone4 & iPhone4s its specs. And again, smartphones.


i see in a other post, you claim that a Tablet is more easy to make. As there is more room. Sure, but the Pandora is also not exactly a featherweight. Do you not think that they also have to figure out where to place there components? If you think its so easy to make a Tablet, why not make a Pandora 2 tablet. As you say, its way more easy? Lets see shall we ... I think that argument is already null and void?


All i see is a lot attempts trying to justify the Pandora's current price, with its current hardware, but it looks just like denial. Even if you "update" the Pandora with a DM3730, it still does not change anything about the insane price that is asked, for its current feature set. In 2008 the Pandora looked like a device that wanted to make a lasting impression. Now it looks like a old device, that can not keep up with the times. I got smartphone's from 2009! that actually keep up with the new DM3730. Let alone the current 3530 SOC.


Its clear that you think you have a wonderful product, while at the same time, your struggling to get it delivered to your customers, some who have waited 3 years! Call it how you like, but its painful to see that people need to wait that long, to only get something that is seriously by today's standards, old. Those same people can now buy devices that are a half cheaper then the original Pandora price. And 1/4 the price of what the Pandora is now selling.


Anyway, i think its not worth arguing about too much, because unfortunately, this project has not gotten past the tinker toy level in all those years. In the end, people can end up buying those Chinese products for a fraction of the price, or a Vita. What do you think is going to happen, when the Vita gets rooted? When people have access to that much power, compared to the Pandora? At 2/3 the price! Where more high level emulators will be playable upon, with no frame dropping. Its a mater of looking at the future, and the Pandora is just not keeping up with the times.


I don't have anything against the Pandora, i just find it ridiculous that this price level is asked from for whats inside the device. You can do with this opinion what you want. It will just be a shame to see this project keep struggling, while everybody is moving past. Even those "evil" Chinese. *lol*

 

[Link]

^


Have you ever used a Pandora?


The iPhone is sponsored, its called AT&T and Verizon, making $30+ per person/month for data plans alone, not to mention profits going back into their pockets once the hardware costs have been covered and two year contracts are fullfilled on monthly service for the phone itself without the data.


Yes my Pandora is outdated, and I don't mind. Give me a dumbphone as I'm over being scammed by ripoff artists like AT&T and Verizon. They just shut off the towers when the revolution starts, ask anyone in Egypt.

 

[Fishbong]

What can you currently do with your newest smartphone that you can't do with your Pandora. Not hypothetically, but WHAT is there available that couldn't be coded on the Pandora (and, of course, what would make sense on a Pandora)?

I can make phone calls, take pictures, use GPS services, have 3G access without external devices, and use acceleration controls. None of which is really essential for what the Pandora is supposed to be, but would be really nice, useful features, especially in combination with the Android wrapper you are proposing. But as you are only counting computational performance in your evaluation of datedness, i guess you will disregard this anyway.


BTW, if you reverse your question, there isn't anything the Pandora can do that a smartphone can't, either.


[

Face it, Pandora is far more expensive than industry standard for its level of hardware. You can justify it and rationalize it however you see fit, but don't pretend that it isn't the case.

So what is the point you are trying to make here?

The point he is making is that just because the Pandora's comparatively high price can be justified with the project's unique circumstances, it does not mean that the high price is not a big problem. The price is so high because the Pandora is a small project, but it being a small project is not a benefit for the customer, rather it is a determent because they cannot offer the same service and reliability a big company can.

 

[Prometheus]

BTW, if you reverse your question, there isn't anything the Pandora can do that a smartphone can't, either.

Tried writing a novel on a telephone, lately? (I'm writing one on my Pandora, though!)

 

[Binky]

they cannot offer the same service and reliability a big company can.

Um:


small company --> better, more personal service


Can I discuss my software needs & ideas with an apple developer in any meaningful way?


---


@Benjiro: The number of megahertzes/cores/whatever isn't strongly related to computer usefulness. Call them second cousins.

 

[pmprog]

BTW, if you reverse your question, there isn't anything the Pandora can do that a smartphone can't, either.

Tried writing a novel on a telephone, lately? (I'm writing one on my Pandora, though!)

I wouldn't find that a problem - bluetooth keyboard and PocketWord ^_^ I even wrote a diary on one using a stylus (when I was in Budapest for business). It is possible.


And to be honest, the Pandora's keyboard actually grates me a little. I know space and keys are limited and everyones preference is different, but I find it awkward to use for prolonged periods (edit, or should I say "serious use")

 

[Wootson]

What does outdated even mean? It only has to do with people and their expectations. If you want cutting edge technology, the Pandora is not for you. Simple as that. Pandora is more about the complete package, including a trustworthy and dedicated community build around a quality portable device. I have yet to discover any "open" device that pulls off something like that.


I was never interested in all-in-one devices. I still carry a 15 inch laptop with me every time I go to school, as it's absolutely impossible to make any tasks on a small device. The software also makes this completely impossible in most cases. For phone calling I use a prepaid Nokia dumb-phone, on which I spend about €10 a year. To take pictures or make videos I use a Sony HX9V pocket camera, as no phone in the world delivers me the quality I need.


For me the Pandora meets all my expectations. It could never replace all my other devices, but I'm very happy with what it actually can do. If I expected it to run a five to ten virtual machines and still be able to surf the Internet and manage a complete rack of Cisco routers and switches: I'd be pretty disappointed. I could sum up everything that I expected of the Pandora and what it delivered upon, but unfortunately I don't have any time for that at the moment. All I can say is that over three years later after placing my (first-day) order, I'm still very happy with my Pandora. To me it was and still is worth every cent.


There's also no way in the world that the Pandora could be made so cheaply as the average Chinese clone-device.

 

[Fishbong]

BTW, if you reverse your question, there isn't anything the Pandora can do that a smartphone can't, either.

Tried writing a novel on a telephone, lately? (I'm writing one on my Pandora, though!)

No, but if i wanted to, i would just use my Bluetooth keyboard that is way more comfortable than the Pandora's. Which is kind of ironical, because i originally bought it in anticipation (and there was much anticipation) of my Pandora. I wanted to hook up the Pandora to my CRT TV and control it with Bluetooth HIDs. That would have been so rad. However, when my Pandora arrived, it did so without working Bluetooth. But not that it would have mattered anyway, since the TV cable so indispensable for my undertaking was not available and probably won't be for at least another half year.


Anyway, it is possible, and with the right acessoire even more comfortable.

 

[Fishbong]

they cannot offer the same service and reliability a big company can.

Um: small company --> better, more personal service.

When i write to ED about my RMAed Pandora, it usually takes him about 8 days to reply. I have yet to find out how many months it will take him to get me a replacement, but it won't be less than 2. This is shitty service. I understand why this is so, and i am not angry about it. I know ED is doing his best, but his best will never be enough to come anywhere close to what is expected from a reputable company. It is still incredibly shitty service compared to any established brand, and no amount of personality and community closeness will ever change that. It may offset it, but the facts remain the same. I was aware it would be that way and i accept it, but i cannot comprehend by what standards OPT offers *good* service.

Can I discuss my software needs & ideas with an apple developer in any meaningful way?

No. And yes, i realize the reason you can do so with the Pandora is because of its small community. but how is any of this even relevant to the topic?

 

[EvilDragon]

I'm not sure how well you are informed about the chinese market, but yes, it increases the price a lot.


Just the material costs for one Pandora are 170 EUR. Add 60 EUR which is what the assembly cost.


Now we're at 230 EUR costs that haven't any taxes, social system expenses, tax counsellor, and all the stuff you need to add for recycling.


The production costs are way higher than the JXD end price.


Why?


For various reasons.


* Assembly is way lower due to underpaid workers.


* No real social system in China, therefore other expenses are way lower as well (that's why you mostly have poor and rich people there, but no inbetween).


* Chinese companies sell their stuff to other chinese companies for a lower price than to companies outside of China.


* JXD is not small. They probably are producing 10-100x as many units as we are, which easily reduces the material costs 3-4x.


So is the Pandora dated? Hardwarewise, yes.


Is it outdated? Depends on your own opinion. Not for me, unless other systems are really using their power and doing anything I'm missing on the Pandora.


Is it too expensive? Not if you keep in mind that it's being done by a small company, in low quantities, made with as little underpaid work as currently possible.


It's no random company you're dealing with, you can actually discuss and talk with the people behind the project, which is not possible with any other system.


You get a portable Linux PC the size of a Nintendo DS, and if sales continue to be good, you will most probably see a Cortex A15 Pandora 2 with both Linux and Android running on it at some time.


You are buying a device that actively tries to be as open and hackerfriendly as possible.


I'm happy to support a social system which takes care of the poor people and of people that are ill or are suffering from diseases, even if that raises the price.


Does that appeal to you or do you rather buy high-tech devices for the cheapest price, without caring about the whole background?


This is what makes you either think it's worth it - or it's way too expensive.

 

[Binky]

how is any of this even relevant to the topic?

--> People were making comparisons between OP and Sony, Apple etc


--> You said that big companies can provide better service than small companies.


--> I don't entirely agree.

 

[Saber]

The question asked is "is the Pandora outdated(old)?" meaning is it obsolete?


The answer is no, if you embrace what the Pandora can do out of the box, even if the components are undeniably a bit older than what is available now. It's not a smartphone or even a dedicated game handheld like the Vita or JXDxxx, so the comparisons are irrelevant. They are similar, sure, but nothing more than that. Even a cracked Vita or a jailbroken smartphone will never be as openly dynamic as a Pandora, even if we want them to.


Now, the second question asked is "is the Pandora overpriced?". The answer is really compared to what? Does any electronic device out there have a keyboard and game controls permanently adhered to itself without some form of Ben Heck modding. I personally have never run across one myself and believe me i've looked. So the queston becomes where would you place a Pandora on an organized by features shelf full of gadgets? Right next to the smartphones of the world, the chinese PMP's, the dedicated Sony/Nintendo offerings? Which one? Good question.


At the end of the day, it all distills down to whether Openpandora can charge the price they need to charge to recover past manufacturing costs and still have buyers for this seasoned tech. For this generation of Pandora, the creditable response is sure they can, because its sublime uniqueness is derived from the overwhelming and often miserably forgotten fact that it is a gaming handheld console and a genuine PC that you can fit in a pocket. A hybrid of sorts that no one since has ever done. -_-

 

[Link]

^


+1

 

[Exophase]

I've never liked tablets, so I never followed their releases


Looks like the iPad was always one 6 months before the release of the iPhone.


Tablets are also way easier to build than Smartphones, due to the bigger PCB.


MWeston didn't need most of the time to design the circuit - it took him way longer to organize all parts to make them fit on the small PCB, following all standards.


Having a big PCB like a tablet makes things way more easy.

I'm pretty sure the size of the PCB isn't what made Pandora come out in 2010 instead of 2008. According to MWeston it only took him about 4 months to do everything, which isn't really that long. Of course he's just one person doing the entire electrical design which is a lot of work (companies usually have more than one person doing schematic capture/analysis/PCB design/etc). You can't really say definitively that other companies have this huge time to market advantage doing a tablet, especially when those OMAP3 Archos devices were Pandora sized.. and still out in 2008..

However, it still doesn't show me where we're way outdated, when we're just one generation behind which didn't have that many releases before 2011, honestly.
In my opinion, hardware is outdated as soon as a lot of programs won't work properly or too slow on it and couldn't be optimized to run properly.


As long as a new CPU generation runs the same stuff as the old one, then you might have more recent hardware, but the old one is not outdated.

All hardware continues to run whatever software was written for it. I'm not going to waste my time on a semantics argument anymore. Use whatever definition you like for "outdated", but you're not going to be the absolute authority on what it means.

Besides, the first samples of the OMAP5 from TI will be available early 2013, mass production following later.
So different companies would need to be way faster to have finished A15 devices out within this year.

I'm not sure you appreciate that other companies outside of are making Cortex-A15 SoCs. And TI claims to have already been sampling since CES (remember the OMAP5 demos there?), maybe it's more a matter of who they're willing to sample to before 2013? And Samsung says they've been sampling their Cortex-A15 Exynos for months now...

And with all this text (looks like it's mostly subjective what you call outdated), I still haven't gotten a reply to one of the simplest questions I asked here a couple of times:


What can you currently do with your newest smartphone that you can't do with your Pandora. Not hypothetically, but WHAT is there available that couldn't be coded on the Pandora (and, of course, what would make sense on a Pandora)?

I don't know, make phone calls? Run anything that requires a multi-touch display or motion controls? Play high end 3D games?


I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not interested in comparing Pandora to a phone, and honestly I don't really understand why you are. Rather than getting in pissing matches to see how well it keeps up with other devices that are totally different I want to know how much Pandora is being held back from what it could be doing. So I'm not really interested in seriously answering your question. If someone else is they can be my guest.

 

[Fishbong]

Now we're at 230 EUR costs that haven't any taxes, social system expenses, tax counsellor, and all the stuff you need to add for recycling.


* JXD is not small. They probably are producing 10-100x as many units as we are, which easily reduces the material costs 3-4x.

So that would mean that JXD would be able to produce a Pandora for about 75€ ?


EDIT: No, its a bit higher, let me think...

 

[pmprog]

Is it too expensive? Not if you keep in mind that it's being done by a small company, in low quantities, made with as little underpaid work as currently possible.

No offence, but the size of the company doesn't change perception on expense. Cheap/Expensive is relative to ones fiscal position. I got mine in the Premium batch (even then the price was on the edge of my interest level), would I say it was worth it in hindsight, yes; Would I say it was worth it at the current price (I think it's about £75 more than I paid) - to me personally - not really.


That said, I understand the want to select manufacturers you believe are "fair", I would too, and I appreciate that costs extra, but everybody will find their own limit between quality and cost.

 

[SNESFAN]

So is the Pandora dated? Hardwarewise, yes.


Is it outdated? Depends on your own opinion. Not for me, unless other systems are really using their power and doing anything I'm missing on the Pandora.


Is it too expensive? Not if you keep in mind that it's being done by a small company, in low quantities, made with as little underpaid work as currently possible.


It's no random company you're dealing with, you can actually discuss and talk with the people behind the project, which is not possible with any other system.


You get a portable Linux PC the size of a Nintendo DS, and if sales continue to be good, you will most probably see a Cortex A15 Pandora 2 with both Linux and Android running on it at some time.


You are buying a device that actively tries to be as open and hackerfriendly as possible.


I'm happy to support a social system which takes care of the poor people and of people that are ill or are suffering from diseases, even if that raises the price.


Does that appeal to you or do you rather buy high-tech devices for the cheapest price, without caring about the whole background?


This is what makes you either think it's worth it - or it's way too expensive.

these are very solid statements and really all that needs to be said officially IMO, well put ED


my opinion of outdated is the ability to buy something with similar functions that is better in every way. When comparing smartphones this is very much the case because function and performance are easily identifyable and you can put a finger on each and say this phone is all around better than this other phone in every way.


the pandora is still king of it's niche in most ways. There are areas where it is starting to show it's age, and for specific functions there are better options covered in devices catered to those functions, but in general there are no better options all around. For specific functions mainly processing power there are better options, but for what it lacks in that area it still makes up for in multiple different catagories.


it was asked what can be done on a smartphone that cant be done on the pandora, this is mainly os specific stuff I can name a few, like netflix streaming, official branded software from comercial companies like facebook, slacker internet radio, spotify, kindle, laundry list of games etc.This isn't hardware related as much as it is no current official support for making it possible


There are some hardware related things, like HDMI 1080p video output. Haptic feedback, motion sensor, gps, 3g without accessory to name a couple. The instant on for days/weeks has always been a gripe of mine and is bested by most mobile devices. The runtime is better, but the standby is nowhere near other devices. I understand this is being addressed with 3.2 kernel and eagerly looking forward to it. And before you say "my cell phone doesn't last all day" put it in airplane mode and you will see it lasts about 5x longer, if not 20x.

 

[Prometheus]

BTW, if you reverse your question, there isn't anything the Pandora can do that a smartphone can't, either.

Tried writing a novel on a telephone, lately? (I'm writing one on my Pandora, though!)

I wouldn't find that a problem - bluetooth keyboard and PocketWord ^_^ I even wrote a diary on one using a stylus (when I was in Budapest for business). It is possible.


And to be honest, the Pandora's keyboard actually grates me a little. I know space and keys are limited and everyones preference is different, but I find it awkward to use for prolonged periods (edit, or should I say "serious use")

BTW, if you reverse your question, there isn't anything the Pandora can do that a smartphone can't, either.

Tried writing a novel on a telephone, lately? (I'm writing one on my Pandora, though!)

No, but if i wanted to, i would just use my Bluetooth keyboard that is way more comfortable than the Pandora's. Which is kind of ironical, because i originally bought it in anticipation (and there was much anticipation) of my Pandora. I wanted to hook up the Pandora to my CRT TV and control it with Bluetooth HIDs. That would have been so rad. However, when my Pandora arrived, it did so without working Bluetooth. But not that it would have mattered anyway, since the TV cable so indispensable for my undertaking was not available and probably won't be for at least another half year.


Anyway, it is possible, and with the right acessoire even more comfortable.

Interesting stuff, this - thanks for highlighting that there are no other practical options, guys.


For me, having to use an extra accessory is completely unacceptable. That's the difference between carrying a bag or just putting one device in a pocket. :lol: (I should note that the Pandora's keyboard works out perfectly for me - I had no issues with "adapting" to it in two seconds flat when I first got mine, really.)


Anyway, I'll bow out, now, as I know that this isn't strictly on-topic.

 

[TeDaDeS]

I don't think the pandora is outdated, as you shouldn't compare it to other devices. The device itself is quite unique.


So until the pandora-2 arrives, or many years have passed, the device is not outdated for me.

 

[DaMummy]

the main thing im reading here, is that the pandora is outdated, but not comparable. and thats why me, and many others here will still pick a pandora over any 1.3ghz smartphone