Pandora outdated?

[Stephane Hockenhull]

Ironically enough, emulating single-CPU systems lends itself well to multi-threading - when the main CPU emulation has done enough work for a frame, you can send the emulated video RAM off to a separate thread for rendering and get on with the next frame in the parent thread. Doesn't work very well for sound, but definitely more than one core can be a real bonus for video rendering, especially if you're using custom scaling algorithms and overlays.

D.

Most 2D game consoles allow effects mid-frame (scanline by scanline, or even mid-scanline) thus also requiring a lot of synchronization or event queuing if you want to do it in another thread. Latter can be more expensive than it's worth, depending on what the game is doing. Also what does the type of video have to do with whether the system has one or more CPUs?

event queuing with deferred rendering is much faster than the usual scanline synchronizing. saves a bunch on i-cache and a bit on d-cache misses.


even on a single processor system.


with event queuing you can render multiple scanlines at once and other tricks.


in most cases you don't even need to buffer the VRAM changes intra-frame, only video registers and sprite settings, as most games will/should only update the invisible parts of the memory if they update it intra-frame.

 

[#1 GameMaster]

Maybe what the pandora needs is a bit more choice as far as os is concerned how about android id pay to have a good build on the pandora not a homebrew build an official you say the pandora is not outdated and is open so why not have a choice as far as the operating system is concerned before every one jumps at this with debian ubuntu etc etc i mean an official build that can be rooted to the marketplace.

Even if we were able to run the android OS it doesn't necessarily mean that we would be able to run android apps on the Pandora does it?


If it does mean that we could run android apps, up to what level would we be able to, and how would that effect our pnd's (would we still be able to run them)?

 

[SNESFAN]

Even if we were able to run the android OS it doesn't necessarily mean that we would be able to run android apps on the Pandora does it?


If it does mean that we could run android apps, up to what level would we be able to, and how would that effect our pnd's (would we still be able to run them)?

it does mean that, nothing besides the OS needs ported for basically every piece of software on android to run.


There is stuff written for specific sets of hardware, but are usually limited to stuff like armv7 chipsets for example. That is a pretty generic requirement, and what is in most higher end arm devices, also what's in the pandora (cortex a8, a9, a15 = armv7 arch)


There is more common stuff written for specific GPUs instead of CPUs, but a workaround for those is a program called "chainfire" it's basically a video driver that acts like a compatibility layer that is able to translate stuff written for nvidia tegra, qualcom, etc. I played around with it and everything I tried looks pretty seamless.


The vast majority of the time you won't run into any issues, but there are workarounds to get most stuff to work usually. There may be obscure exceptions, but most of the popular software is universally compatible with every device.


You can run android apps up the the API level of what is supported by the version of the OS that's installed. The versions are backwards compatible with all previous versions.


http://developer.and...api-levels.html


http://en.wikipedia....version_history


current catalog of pnds would need ported to android, or you would need to modify android to be able to run, or just leave the os's seperate

 

[EvilDragon]

The most awesome thing would still be a wrapper for Android apps.


If we could include all Android libraries into the Pandora Linux OS, and run Android games from there, it would be the best of both worlds.


Having Android directly on the Pandora would make the system a lot slower.


I tried it on my N900 (same SoC), and it's just too slow to be any fun.


I would not expect to run a PSX Emu on Android on a Pandora with 600MHz fullspeed.

 

[SNESFAN]

Has there been any work on porting dalvik VM to angstrom? I've seem proof of concepts on x86 Linux that seem promising


Chromeium os is supposedly working on something similar


Sent from my Nexus S 4g using Tapatalk

 

[BaDToaD]

The most awesome thing would still be a wrapper for Android apps.


If we could include all Android libraries into the Pandora Linux OS, and run Android games from there, it would be the best of both worlds.

I agree 100% ED

 

[#1 GameMaster]

The most awesome thing would still be a wrapper for Android apps.


If we could include all Android libraries into the Pandora Linux OS, and run Android games from there, it would be the best of both worlds.

Wasn't someone working on a wrapper for the Pandora or was it something else because I remeber someone asking for help with something to do with the Android OS.


I agree with you though that a wrapper would be the way to go.

 

[Grench]

The most awesome thing would still be a wrapper for Android apps.


If we could include all Android libraries into the Pandora Linux OS, and run Android games from there, it would be the best of both worlds.

Wasn't someone working on a wrapper for the Pandora or was it something else because I remeber someone asking for help with something to do with the Android OS.


I agree with you though that a wrapper would be the way to go.

Use a wrapper - OR actually run Android in a shell with an interpretive layer to use our hardware and fake the Android shell out to think that it's seeing the hardware it expects?


Android: Multitouch Pinch Zoom


Pandora: Touch the screen and move the nub left to move in, right to move out.


Android: Tilt sensor - relational positions from 'flat'


Pandora: Remap it to a nub - relational positions from center


Android: GPS


Pandora: USB or Bluetooth GPS


Of course all of this type stuff could be done in a wrapper too - something to translate what Android sees as 'expected' hardware into what we actually have.

 

[DaMummy]

well, we still dont know what the creator of GINGE has planned for ReBirth compo...

 

[benjiro]

But the Pandora is stil la MOBILE Device, and there it all depends on battery life. Nobody wants a mobile dual or quadcore CPU that may be fast but only results in 2h battery life or even less.

Lets see:


PS Vita: Quad Core CPU, Quad Core GPU, 128MB Dedicated video Ram, 5" Screen ( bigger then Pandora's ). Using all resources on heavy game as Uncharted, it does 3 hours to 4 hours. Depending on screen brightness.


Battery: 2200 mAh


OpenPandora: 4200 mAh


In other words, given the same hardware, with a heavy game like Uncharted, the pandora can in theory run 6 to 8 hours. And its very low change, that you will get any games of the same quality ( translation: That pushes all the cpu & gpu to the max ), on the Pandora!


O, and the Vita's CPU this is only at 45nm. Its not even procuced at 32nm or 28nm.


There are also several Tegra3 based phone's in development ( a few anounced ). In other words, with Quad Core CPU smartphone's.


You are saying something about 2 hour or less? From a technological point of view, the Pandora is getting old beyond old. Sure, it runs older emulators good, but with some heavy emulators it runs into more framedrops ( deping on the game ), and then forget about perfect emulation of things like the Saturn. There are already like a dozen Chinese PSP clone's / even Tablets that are way cheaper, and match or even beat the Pandora.


Just saying ... Its not 2008 anymore. The market has moved at a frightening fast pace forward, in regards to ARM based SOC's. And for the price you also do not need to do it anymore... 370/440 € ? For hardware technically from 2008.


Same performance as the Pandora, JXD S7100, only, it cots about 130€ ( Android 2.2 Gaming Tablet PC - 7.0" Capacitive A9 Game Console 8gb ).


http://chinagrabber.com/search.aspx?find=jxd+s7100


So, you end up getting 8GB internal storage, a 7" Capacitive screen, a 800Mhz A9 Cpu, a Mali 400 GPU, HDMI out!!!, Same amount of ram ( 512 ), plays every emulator the Pandora can handle, ... Most people that have one seem to be pleased by it. Disadvantage, battery life is 3 a 4 hour. And it has only 1 expansion slot, compared to the two on the Pandora. And one nub. Jailbroken in 2 minutes, and one can install the Android Market ( and everything works on it ).


Let me say it again: 130 € vs 370/440 €.


Be honest ... do you not think that the few advantages that the Pandora has ( like double nub, battery ), are a little bit massivly expensive? Its painfull that old hardware, is sold at this expensive price. And this is just one, there a whole lot other of those mobile game console's that are 100€ or even less. Hell, buy a PS Vita for 250€, en when it gets hacked, ... There is really no possible reason for the Pandora to be this expensive, with this level of hardware, yet it is.


If you expect people to pay 370/440 €, how about offering the hardware to match? Actually: did everybody that ordered in 2008/2009 already get there order.

 

[TrashyMG]

But the Pandora is stil la MOBILE Device, and there it all depends on battery life. Nobody wants a mobile dual or quadcore CPU that may be fast but only results in 2h battery life or even less.

Lets see:


PS Vita: Quad Core CPU, Quad Core GPU, 128MB Dedicated video Ram, 5" Screen ( bigger then Pandora's ). Using all resources on heavy game as Uncharted, it does 3 hours to 4 hours. Depending on screen brightness.


Battery: 2200 mAh


OpenPandora: 4200 mAh


In other words, given the same hardware, with a heavy game like Uncharted, the pandora can in theory run 6 to 8 hours. And its very low change, that you will get any games of the same quality ( translation: That pushes all the cpu & gpu to the max ), on the Pandora!


O, and the Vita's CPU this is only at 45nm. Its not even procuced at 32nm or 28nm.


There are also several Tegra3 based phone's in development ( a few anounced ). In other words, with Quad Core CPU smartphone's.


You are saying something about 2 hour or less? From a technological point of view, the Pandora is getting old beyond old. Sure, it runs older emulators good, but with some heavy emulators it runs into more framedrops ( deping on the game ), and then forget about perfect emulation of things like the Saturn. There are already like a dozen Chinese PSP clone's / even Tablets that are way cheaper, and match or even beat the Pandora.


Just saying ... Its not 2008 anymore. The market has moved at a frightening fast pace forward, in regards to ARM based SOC's. And for the price you also do not need to do it anymore... 370/440 € ? For hardware technically from 2008.


Same performance as the Pandora, JXD S7100, only, it cots about 130€ ( Android 2.2 Gaming Tablet PC - 7.0" Capacitive A9 Game Console 8gb ).


http://chinagrabber....?find=jxd+s7100


So, you end up getting 8GB internal storage, a 7" Capacitive screen, a 800Mhz A9 Cpu, a Mali 400 GPU, HDMI out!!!, Same amount of ram ( 512 ), plays every emulator the Pandora can handle, ... Most people that have one seem to be pleased by it. Disadvantage, battery life is 3 a 4 hour. And it has only 1 expansion slot, compared to the two on the Pandora. And one nub. Jailbroken in 2 minutes, and one can install the Android Market ( and everything works on it ).


Let me say it again: 130 € vs 370/440 €.


Be honest ... do you not think that the few advantages that the Pandora has ( like double nub, battery ), are a little bit massivly expensive? Its painfull that old hardware, is sold at this expensive price. And this is just one, there a whole lot other of those mobile game console's that are 100€ or even less. Hell, buy a PS Vita for 250€, en when it gets hacked, ... There is really no possible reason for the Pandora to be this expensive, with this level of hardware, yet it is.


If you expect people to pay 370/440 €, how about offering the hardware to match? Actually: did everybody that ordered in 2008/2009 already get there order.

Why are you here? Go play with your Vita..

 

[darkborn]

I do not know do somebody has to answer this... ok, let's start.


It is all same, old story:


1.) hardware without software is worthless.


2.) hardware without community is worthless.


3.) very good price can't compensate 1.) and 2.)


1.) it is not that hardware is without software AT ALL, moreover: if we are talking about Android, there is plenty of. However, it is not that shiny like it looks on a first:


- Most Android software won't work on all versions/platforms.


- Apps & speed of it could not compare with e. g. Pandora natives, at least most of it.


- Android is half open platform, and it is not easy to quality develop something when you can't get hardware specifications, drivers etc. And it is not legal to hi-jack, rev.eng. proprietary hardware.


2.) Pandora = community. There were very bad things happened, but those are behind us. There is no hardware, good prices etc that would replace community, and community chosen open platform (open as it could be).


3.) Price will be always disturbing factor. But, please, let me introduce you with fresh example that will show you that great hardware/ low price would not insure success - quite the opposite:


MS & Nokia sold Lumia for 1$ (with contract), or give you Xbox360 if you "upgrade" to Lumia, worldwide. Price was often <100$ (without contract), for device that cost much more then 200$ to produce. They manage to sell 600.000 products instead expected millions. Here is Smartphone Final Numbers 2011, and how "outdated" MeeGo outsold Lumia by 3 to 1.

 

[EvilDragon]

Just saying ... Its not 2008 anymore. The market has moved at a frightening fast pace forward, in regards to ARM based SOC's. And for the price you also do not need to do it anymore... 370/440 € ? For hardware technically from 2008.

Errm, while it's fast, it's not THAT frightening fast, to be honest.


I don't know whether there were any Cortex A8 devices out in 2008 already (I don't think so, the first appeared mid 2009 AFAIK), but one of the first smartphones (if not the first?) that used the A8 was the iPhone 3GS from Apple, released June 2009.


The iPhone4 still used an A8 (released June 2010), the first iPhone to use an A9 is the iPhone4S (available since October 2011).


There were no Smartphones (AFAIK) with an A9 before 2011, the first A9 development boards were available end of 2010.


And the next generation, the A15 CPUs won't see devices before 2013.


So technically, the Pandora is one generation behind (about half a year, compared to Smartphones), and the next generation is yet to come.


The iPhone3GS is still sold at 369EUR in Germany, though it's produced by a company that produces millions of devices, so production costs are at a friction of the costs the Pandora has.


The iPhone4 is still 519EUR, and a Pandora with a DM3730 will not be far away from those specs.

Let me say it again: 130 € vs 370/440 €.

So you want to compare a system made by a few people in low numbers, mostly produced and manufactured outside of China (except for the bare PCBs and the cases) to a system produced in a number of millions, by low-wages workers, that's using some ripped-off emulators as well as probably a lot other unlicensed stuff in there? (I know China even clones SoCs, don't know if that's the case here, but it could be).


Sorry, but I'd rather sell the Pandora in less numbers for a higher price, just to be able to produce it in a country that isn't know to have basically slavery work...

There is really no possible reason for the Pandora to be this expensive, with this level of hardware, yet it is.

Hmm... let me see.


1. Produced in a proper wages country, not China.


2. Produced in low numbers, so parts cost a lot more (just producing 10,000 at once would half the costs! Imagine Smartphone numbers!)


3. The damage a certain PCB production company caused us need to be somehow recovered.


4. It doesn't make profit with games or is sponsored with contracts, etc. unlike other devices (like iPhone, PSP Vita, Android Smartphones, etc.)

 

[SNESFAN]

- Most Android software won't work on all versions/platforms.


- Apps & speed of it could not compare with e. g. Pandora natives, at least most of it.


- Android is half open platform, and it is not easy to quality develop something when you can't get hardware specifications, drivers etc. And it is not legal to hi-jack, rev.eng. proprietary hardware.

Each one of these are extremely inaccurate statements


1) see my post a couple replies back where I was talking about APIs, most apps will in fact be backwards and forward compatible with all versions and platforms because of this one thing. If you have a semi-recent version of the OS you will have access to over 90% of the available software on android instantly.


2) most of the apps on android would compare to the performance on the pandora's native OS, the minority would not... if you supply an example it would probally be a high end emulator and in both catalogs of software, emulators are a small percentage vs the other genres of software. Emulators themselves would perform simularly becuase of the use of Android NDK which allows you to write in a variant of C++ more basic apps like web browsers, media players, more basic games etc in terms of performance would be identical


3) NDK allows you to write high end software effectively without intimate knowledge of the specific hardware being used, from what I gather, most of the translation is done by the OS and making use of the GPU can be done either by hand for specific chipset, or by just putting a flag in your app that basically says "use hardware acceleration" it's one line of code and sounds pretty easy if you ask me. The hardware drivers and kernel source for each chipset is as open as it is on the pandora so I'm not sure where the half open statement is comming from.


I don't think it is fair to compare the price of the cheap chineese devices to that of the pandora... in one word, quality. Both hardware build quality, features like the physcial nubs and keyboard, battery and open nature and support from the manufacturers. Down to the actual quality of chips being used. The quality and performance of the cheaper devices while having bigger numbers on paper, are not the same league in reality.


As long as the pandora chooses and brings to market an cortex a15 or tegra 3 chipset in their next iteration, and do it in the same timeframe or faster than the competition, they will stay ahead of the bell curve and as long as they make at a minimum similar choices in quality over price.. then they will have a premimum device that demands a premium cost. All in all, the pandora is worth what they are asking for it, even comparing to higher spec'd cheap knockoff and mainstream devices.


I also don't agree with ED's continous comparison to the an apple product being similarly spec'd and similarly priced. While the concept of quality over quanity, and price for premium are the same unlike companies like JXD or YINLIPS... All of them are capable of doing it on a much larger scale than you guys are, most of their cost is purely profit, or cheaper as a selling point... yours is operating costs for the quality you are providing. You use the argueents in your favor, but the reality of what is actually going on is a much stronger arguement. You can't afford to sell it for cheaper, if the project is to survive, the current stock needs sold and at the price it is now. You shouldn't have to justify it anymore than that. I posted something about this a while back and I think it struck a chord with craig because almost diretly after that the price went up to the new price and he started realizing the pandora is more than just some gaming device or mini laptop... it's a premium product.You guys think craig is off his rocker, but I think me and him see eye to eye on a lot of things. Not sure what that says about my own credibility lol.

 

[Exophase]

Errm, while it's fast, it's not THAT frightening fast, to be honest.
I don't know whether there were any Cortex A8 devices out in 2008 already (I don't think so, the first appeared mid 2009 AFAIK), but one of the first smartphones (if not the first?) that used the A8 was the iPhone 3GS from Apple, released June 2009.


The iPhone4 still used an A8 (released June 2010), the first iPhone to use an A9 is the iPhone4S (available since October 2011).


There were no Smartphones (AFAIK) with an A9 before 2011, the first A9 development boards were available end of 2010.


And the next generation, the A15 CPUs won't see devices before 2013.


So technically, the Pandora is one generation behind (about half a year, compared to Smartphones), and the next generation is yet to come.

Archos tablets using Cortex-A8 - OMAP3530, in fact - were for sale in 2008. I know, I saw one at Circuit City (during their last weeks). People said Pandora had the same LCD and I wanted to see what it was like.


Likewise, the first Cortex-A9 devices, sporting Tegra 2, came out in mid-2010. You have to understand that phones take longer to get the latest SoCs because they go through a much more rigorous validation procedure than tablets, PMPs, netbooks, etc. It'd be fair to compare with phones if Pandora was a phone, but it isn't. So Pandora doesn't have that excuse.


Pandora might not have Cortex-A15 SoCs available for release until mid-2013, and it may even be that no OMAP5s will be out in anything until then either, but that doesn't mean that no Cortex-A15 device will be out before then. With Krait and Medfield SoCs coming out vendors using ARM CPUs need to stay competitive.

The iPhone3GS is still sold at 369EUR in Germany, though it's produced by a company that produces millions of devices, so production costs are at a friction of the costs the Pandora has.
The iPhone4 is still 519EUR, and a Pandora with a DM3730 will not be far away from those specs.

Again you're trying to compare with phones. Pandora isn't a phone. You pay a premium for unlocked phones because there isn't much of a market for them; most are instead buying phones subsidized by data plans and you can't really compare that with devices that aren't. If you insist on comparing with Apple, which sells at higher markups than almost everyone, the most relevant comparison point would be iPod Touch. Which isn't up to iPhone 4S level of hardware but is still ahead of Pandora, and sells for $199 for the 8GB version. This is only a fairly modest discount off of its original $229 price; assuming an A5 based iTouch does come out I'm sure it won't be that much more expensive.


Face it, Pandora is far more expensive than industry standard for its level of hardware. You can justify it and rationalize it however you see fit, but don't pretend that it isn't the case.


And I don't see how using "ripped off emulators" is a valid point when talking about why Chinese PMPs get away with costing less. It's not like OPT pays for its emulators. Also have no idea what you're talking about when you bring up "clone SoCs." Also don't get where you really get off talking so big about assembly being done in Germany instead of by "slaves" in China when the case and PCB manufacturing are made in China. It's not like those Chinese assembly houses have a bunch of people hand soldering BGAs on boards all day...

 

[TrashyMG]

How I see it we may not have the latest and greatest hardware, but we got a good development platform and this community is getting more out of similar hardware than most devices.

 

[EvilDragon]

I've never liked tablets, so I never followed their releases


Looks like the iPad was always one 6 months before the release of the iPhone.


Tablets are also way easier to build than Smartphones, due to the bigger PCB.


MWeston didn't need most of the time to design the circuit - it took him way longer to organize all parts to make them fit on the small PCB, following all standards.


Having a big PCB like a tablet makes things way more easy.


However, it still doesn't show me where we're way outdated, when we're just one generation behind which didn't have that many releases before 2011, honestly.


In my opinion, hardware is outdated as soon as a lot of programs won't work properly or too slow on it and couldn't be optimized to run properly.


As long as a new CPU generation runs the same stuff as the old one, then you might have more recent hardware, but the old one is not outdated.


Besides, the first samples of the OMAP5 from TI will be available early 2013, mass production following later.


So different companies would need to be way faster to have finished A15 devices out within this year.


And with all this text (looks like it's mostly subjective what you call outdated), I still haven't gotten a reply to one of the simplest questions I asked here a couple of times:


What can you currently do with your newest smartphone that you can't do with your Pandora. Not hypothetically, but WHAT is there available that couldn't be coded on the Pandora (and, of course, what would make sense on a Pandora)?

 

[Fishbong]

My input on this topic is that i too think the Pandora is, if not outdated, at least dated. Don't get me wrong, i love the Pandora and am very glad i bought one (though i would be much gladder if it returned from repairs one of these days before i move to another country) but at the present date, i would not buy one. It just doesn't distinguish itself as much from the competition as it did 3 years ago. It is still unique with its form factor and dual nubs, but that is about it. All other features can be replicated


more or less with a 200€ Android device and some accessoires. The processor may not be that much slower than current ones, but it is slower.


The Pandora's selling point has been its unique set of features and good performance. Today, it is not as unique, and the performance is sufficient but nothing special. That means the niche of people interested in the things that only Pandora has to offer grows smaller.


I also think that N64 emulation could benefit from faster processing. Even though a change to the A9 would not be worth the hassle because of the small performance increase, it still would be an improvement. Same goes for multicore processing. It may not be of much use in single-threaded games and emulators, but i see no reason to dismiss multitasking performance as somthing only important for phones. You even made a video about it, ED. Also, with enough effort, emulators can be written to make use of multicore processing and with the increasing proliferation of such processors, it is only a question of time until they do (although right now, i agree it is not very relevant).

 

[F_Slim]

Face it, Pandora is far more expensive than industry standard for its level of hardware. You can justify it and rationalize it however you see fit, but don't pretend that it isn't the case.

So what is the point you are trying to make here?


I can't recall that anybody said that the Pandora is cheap?


And if the hardware is outdated or not largly depends on your definition of outdated&amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;, like ED said. I have the impression in a world where Apple releases a new device each year (and people buy a new one each year), as soon as something new comes out, the previous one is automatically obsolete. Reminds me of this song by Giftdwarf by the way:

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/embed/9HX1SZQxlp0?feature=oembed
lyrics are here: http://www.giftdwarf...pott_lyrics.jpg

So by that definition the hardware is clearly outdated.


I know what I ordered the Pandora for, since then I found hundrets of more thing I will be able to do with it, and as long as there is no other device which can do all of that better and faster, the Pandora (seen as the entire device, not split into its single components) is not outdated.

 

[Binky]

the Pandora (seen as the entire device, not split into its single components) is not outdated.

Sigworthy?