More Pandora 2 crap (MicroSD Split)

[Grench]

Thanks for the update. I'm glad to see that you have a long term goal to at least try to make the price lower as a long term goal. This is what I like to see, instead of comments like "$699 is the only way." I hope you have some intention to try to keep Pandora 2's price reasonable as well.

The actual price is not as critical as the value for that price. "Reasonable" is dependent both on the quality of the device and the socioeconomic strata of the customers.


If building a true high quality 'ultimate handheld computer/console' requires a price tag of $700, then that is what it should be priced at. Yes, it would eliminate a portion of the potential audience who are broke/starving/etc. Arguably those people should be spending their income on something other than a game console - maybe a new job interview outfit?


I'm sure they could build a $200 Pandora 2, but I'm also equally sure it would be utter rubbish. Doing so would eliminate a portion of the potential audience who care about the quality/capabilities/etc and have adequate funds to afford 'the ultimate handheld computer/console'. Those people would have to find something else.


There are already plenty of rubbish consoles and tablets flooding the <$200 market.


There are no high end high quality 'ultimate' consoles, possible exception being the existing Pandora(s) - though there are a few tablets making that claim.


I could see the existing 1Ghz Pandora filling a gap between those price points after the Pandora 2 ships. I personally hope they don't skimp on the details just to make it cheaper.

 

[Exophase]

If building a true high quality 'ultimate handheld computer/console' requires a price tag of $700, then that is what it should be priced at. Yes, it would eliminate a portion of the potential audience who are broke/starving/etc. Arguably those people should be spending their income on something other than a game console - maybe a new job interview outfit?

What a disturbing comment. I think that exemplifies your mindset (and hence why it's all I'm bothering to respond to). Just because someone thinks that $700 is too much to spend on a handheld doesn't mean they're destitute and need to go find a new job - or are you assuming they're jobless to begin with? It doesn't work out as either $700 is fine or any game console is too much, there are actually things in between.


Ultimately the $700 price matters because a lot of people in THIS community say it's too much and won't be paying for it. Either you don't understand what that means or you just don't care; in the case of the former I'll spell it out in plain English for you - that means a lot of the community, a big part of what makes the Pandora what it is, is going to go away. With absolutely no guarantee that it'll be replaced by others, but even if it is that means starting over from zero. Much of this community's roots was built up over several years before the Pandora was even announced, don't for a second take for granted what that means. And I'm not even really speaking for myself here (I'm surely not on the cost, $700 isn't that much to me personally), but on the many people who say that it's the community that makes the device. Of course, there's always going to be a big correlation between community strength and dev effort - do you think notaz, arguably the single largest contributor to the system - was introduced to handhelds with Pandora? Do you think he'll be easily replaced if he leaves? That's just one example...


Nobody is asking for a $200 Pandora. But the whole premise was built on a question some years ago - "will you buy a Pandora if it costs $330." (ironically, Craig asked because he thought that was too high for people to consider!).. People understand that some things didn't work out, some prices go up, and are probably willing to accept a $500 console, but $700 is just something very different. It's one thing to sell them right now, alongside the $500 600MHz ones, because you need the money and it's helping fund outstanding preorders. That's going out to a subset of the community and some new prospective orderers and it's helping maintain things. But those Pandoras aren't going to last forever and what's going to matter is the status quo years from now - if you will have to pay $700 (or whatever's equivalent in that year's $) to get anything at all.


You will see I'm not demanding they lower the price the right now. I'm applauding ED for realizing that the high price IS damaging to them (something you refuse to do for some reason) and for saying that he has a GOAL to lower it, that he will TRY to lower it over the long term. If you don't lack that then oh well.

 

[Grench]

1. Get new customers!


2. Get additional funds this donation website


3. Cross-Upgrade your preorder to an instant-delivery 1GHz Pandora!


4. Lower the price

Additional ideas.


5. Buy someone you know a Pandora


For the holidays if you want? The perfect gift for the person who thinks they have everything.


6. Buy someone you -don't know- a Pandora


Here's the big idea:


1. Have CraigIX and ED state a $ value for clearing ONE order from each of the respective queues. This assumes that it costs different amounts to clear up and ship a Batch 1, Batch 2 or 1Ghz Pandora.


2. Put up a special donation page that allows a person to donate to ED the exact amount to clear an order from a respective queue.


3. Get some sort of badge thingy on your account (though this idea has fallen far short of fulfilling the last several of these badges promised).


The situation at CraigIX's shop is clearly a mess. That is why, as above, I recommend doing this entirely through ED with him using funds, as delegated, to direct ship to the next in line in both his and CraigIX's queue.


ED - are you and Craig willing to set up a #6 similar to above? I.e. declare an actual debt and quantity remaining to each type of pre-order?


Having those numbers of 'Pre-orders in limbo' available drop live as people donate would be cool too.

 

[overgauss]

IMO there's not enough quantities of scale to go high end. The company would price themselves out of existence. Once the engine is up and running full blast it might be feasible to go higher end because the volume sold/manufactured could reduce the cost of parts manufactured in bulk.


Not to say it couldn't be done. But I can't help but anticipate people saying "well for that price I could get a such and such AND it has yadda yadda." Figure out how to beat that sentiment and you have a winner.

 

[Binky]

5. Buy someone you know a Pandora For the holidays if you want? The perfect gift for the person who thinks they have everything.

The number of people for whom this would make sense in very limited


Pandoras are expensive, such a gift would only be suitable for someone you are very close to.


If so, they have probably seen your Pandora


If they liked it, they may well have bought one themselves, if not, its a huge waste of hundreds of pounds


Making this suggestion only suitable for very close friends an relations who are much poorer than you are

 

[overgauss]

OK. Ed would you please start a few official idea threads? We need to copy and paste the ideas there so they don't get lost. We could have a generic brainstorm thread and then ideas from that thread copied over to idea threads that have specific tasks some of which haven't been determined yet but the necessity for them might manifest in the general idea thread. Thanks! Keep the ideas coming gang!


Edit:


I PM'd Ed. Here's hoping.

 

[Binky]

Figure out how to beat that sentiment and you have a winner.

I say bucket loads of cheap, but useful features:


for the classic hardware nerd IRDA would be neat


A dipswitch for hardware disabling radios/cameras could be handy for some people


being able to run both android apps and linux packages on top of several generations of retro consoles is awesome


the P2 should also have nubs and buttons on par with the current dpad


etc

 

[overgauss]

Figure out how to beat that sentiment and you have a winner.

I say bucket loads of cheap, but useful features:


for the classic hardware nerd IRDA would be neat


A dipswitch for hardware disabling radios/cameras could be handy for some people


being able to run both android apps and linux packages on top of several generations of retro consoles is awesome


the P2 should also have nubs and buttons on par with the current dpad


etc

Hrrm. I wouldn't mind a serial port to control my arduinos. Actually I had a list but can't remember it. A sensor module would be cool. A cheap camera to read QR codes and such. Bluetooth. Case mounted playback controls. acceleromater, emag compass. Some sort of bus or interface beyond usb with which to control stuff. hrrmmm


Interesting point you raise.

 

[Grench]

Nobody is asking for a $200 Pandora. But the whole premise was built on a question some years ago - "will you buy a Pandora if it costs $330." (ironically, Craig asked because he thought that was too high for people to consider!).. People understand that some things didn't work out, some prices go up, and are probably willing to accept a $500 console, but $700 is just something very different. It's one thing to sell them right now, alongside the $500 600MHz ones, because you need the money and it's helping fund outstanding preorders. That's going out to a subset of the community and some new prospective orderers and it's helping maintain things. But those Pandoras aren't going to last forever and what's going to matter is the status quo years from now - if you will have to pay $700 (or whatever's equivalent in that year's $) to get anything at all.

Which shows perfectly the reason why you can't always price something as low as everyone wants to pay. Priced properly, it should be aspirational, but not unobtainable AND priced adequately to cover the costs of producing them AND wages and profit for the people running the show.


The bottom end of the spectrum for devices 'like this' is already flooded with junk I'm not interested in buying. On a strict emulation and gaming basis anyway.


For us to have a true do-everything Pandora successor with updated to current hardware and functionality - I would EXPECT it to be in the $600+ range, with $700 not outside of reason. To expect it to be less just because there are people who can't or don't want to afford that - sorry, but that isn't how it works.

Basically: plow ahead and cram the best-of-the-best ultra high tech gizmods into it and have it cost $700, a price well outside the realm of reason for many people, OR accept that price *is* a factor and maybe you don't need a 1080p LCD screen where a 960 or 720 screen will suffice etc...

Price is -always- a factor, but -value- is even more important. If you have the capabilities/value to justify the high price point, then it is -not- overpriced.


Yes, there is a price point where any device would out-price it's potential market. Properly speced' out and with a high quality build, I could see a $700 device doing quite well. I'm not aware of anything that competes there with what could be done with that budget to work from.


There are already a pile of handheld game and emulation devices in the sub $500 market that do not have the flexibility, capabilities, connectivity or capacity of the existing Pandora. Downgrading it to compete with those would be a bit foolish when the existing Pandora versions already compete very well in that audience. If it can be done profitably, lower it's price to work there AFTER a new Pandora II takes the current price point of the flagship (1Ghz) model.


There are some people out there willing to pay the premium for cutting edge hardware. They pretty much cover the development costs for everything.


Your opinion and business sense may vary.

 

[PokeParadox]

Yeah we really can't afford to lose notaz... or your goodself either, Exo!


EDIT: Sorry for post lag... I got a phone call in the middle of typing

 

[overgauss]

Speaking of themed....I don't know about licensing constraints but

Contest details would be posted on the OPT site as well as DC's. A Batman theme is PERFECT for the Pandora! Just look at it!

Batman?? How is batman perfect for the pandora? Thinks like pak ghosts have retro cool with them and would be far more suitable. I think things with a dual appeal, like space invaders and pac ghosts, which originated in games but now appear as symbols of an era outside the gaming world. Things like dungeon master are great to some but so geeky as to cut of the mainstream but if you stay on the cool side of geekdom it'll work. Many audiophiles wouldnt mind a pac ghost but you wouldnt catch them with batman. Its like the difference between sooty and zippy. Zippy is a symbol of a generation, sooty is a pants kids tv show.

The Pandora is a multifunction device and does some things I'd expect the BatLaptop to do, too, so...


What I'd love more than anything else is this, though:

Spoiler

Spoiler

I really need to find someone around here who can plot vinyl stickers.

I wouldn't mind donating a little extra for a themed Pandora. Especially if I could get a Batman and Nightwing themed Pandora duo! If not I might still donate if the theme was cool enough,

 

[WizardStan]

Price is -always- a factor, but -value- is even more important. If you have the capabilities/value to justify the high price point, then it is -not- overpriced.

But that's part of the argument: you can put all kinds of features into a device to justify its high price, and you would be absolutely right, for what you are getting it would be good value, but people *also* have their price limits. If the final price is considered unreasonable by most then it is worth considering dropping features to get the price point down. Craig has said the P2 will cost $700 because that's what it will have to be to include all the high tech wizbangs he wants it to have and Exophase and myself are questioning the need for all those wizbangs when so many people seem to be questioning the $700.


I play the same game right now: if someone just wants an open emulator/game machine, I don't suggest the Pandora to them, I suggest one of many cheap solutions.


Admittedly I'm looking out for self-interest here as much as other's: if Craig has his way and produces a $700 device with a bunch of excess features I don't feel add much to the device then I won't be getting it. The price would absolutely be justified in the capabilities it *could* provide, but not necessarily in the overall content.

 

[Binky]

Given Ed's wonderful ability to post good sense and constructive news, I think it might help if there were an official post detailing the outline plans for the P2, addressing key points like:

• Will it cost $750
  
• Whats this magical hardware deal that requires android as a stock install?
  
• Will it run real Linux out of the box
  
• Are we restricted to microSD card slots?
  
• How is the 8GB of ram going to be achieved?
  

Its early days yet, but the core customer base is being put off buying a product that hasn't really reached the drawing board - which is a crazy state of affairs

 

[overgauss]

Given Ed's wonderful ability to post good sense and constructive news, I think it might help if there were an official post detailing the outline plans for the P2, addressing key points like:

• Will it cost $750
  
• Whats this magical hardware deal that requires android as a stock install?
  
• Will it run real Linux out of the box
  
• Are we restricted to microSD card slots?
  
• How is the 8GB of ram going to be achieved?
  

Its early days yet, but the core customer base is being put off buying a product that hasn't really reached the drawing board - which is a crazy state of affairs

If microSD slots are used what is the max amount of slots we can have? I'd like to see 3 or even 4 slots. That way I could have 1 or 2 dedicated to music and videos the rest for games, os etc. I have A LOT of media and documents.

 

[Binky]

Given Ed's wonderful ability to post good sense and constructive news, I think it might help if there were an official post detailing the outline plans for the P2, addressing key points like:

• Will it cost $750
  
• Whats this magical hardware deal that requires android as a stock install?
  
• Will it run real Linux out of the box
  
• Are we restricted to microSD card slots?
  
• How is the 8GB of ram going to be achieved?
  

Its early days yet, but the core customer base is being put off buying a product that hasn't really reached the drawing board - which is a crazy state of affairs

If microSD slots are used what is the max amount of slots we can have? I'd like to see 3 or even 4 slots. That way I could have 1 or 2 dedicated to music and videos the rest for games, os etc. I have A LOT of media and documents.

You know, if the P2 purposely used microSD to RAID them, I would probably be convinced that it was a good idea


Just as leaving space in the top corners of the iCP2 turns out to be for speakers, clearing the lid of the P2 for a huge screen


Another thought is that a premium console/palmtop should have a backpanel touchpad - PSvita style


Perhaps this explains the enthusiasm for android?

 

[Grench]

Admittedly I'm looking out for self-interest here as much as other's: if Craig has his way and produces a $700 device with a bunch of excess features I don't feel add much to the device then I won't be getting it. The price would absolutely be justified in the capabilities it *could* provide, but not necessarily in the overall content.

That is one of the reasons I really like my twist on Binky's modular concept for stacks of two modules under the main unit - people could literally assemble what they want. It has disadvantages though (plastics quantity, net thickness, number of bits involved, etc...


The end result, though, is that the Pandora II needs to wow people as much as the Pandora did 4+ years ago when it was in development. To wow people is going to take some serious kit. I.e. it's going to take some $$$ to make a machine that does the title justice.


Quad core 2Ghz CPU - Tegra 3 or better?


2GB+ RAM


720p minimum, preferably 1080p screen (and video system to drive it)


Full on OpenGL graphics capable


Even better audio (if that is possible) from the MWeston studios.


Storage capacity at least as large as the Pandora - preferably larger, but that may be difficult.


Faster storage - 100MB/sec capable would not be out of line.


Stronger chassis/plastics


Updated/Improved WiFi (802.11n with 2.4 and 5Ghz)


Updated/Improved USB (3.0 both on the device and the host ports)


That's my list. Where do you think they should compromise?

 

[Grench]

Given Ed's wonderful ability to post good sense and constructive news, I think it might help if there were an official post detailing the outline plans for the P2, addressing key points like:

• Will it cost $750
  
• Whats this magical hardware deal that requires android as a stock install?
  
• Will it run real Linux out of the box
  
• Are we restricted to microSD card slots?
  
• How is the 8GB of ram going to be achieved?
  

Its early days yet, but the core customer base is being put off buying a product that hasn't really reached the drawing board - which is a crazy state of affairs

If microSD slots are used what is the max amount of slots we can have? I'd like to see 3 or even 4 slots. That way I could have 1 or 2 dedicated to music and videos the rest for games, os etc. I have A LOT of media and documents.

You know, if the P2 purposely used microSD to RAID them, I would probably be convinced that it was a good idea


Just as leaving space in the top corners of the iCP2 turns out to be for speakers, clearing the lid of the P2 for a huge screen


Another thought is that a premium console/palmtop should have a backpanel touchpad - PSvita style


Perhaps this explains the enthusiasm for android?

Not to get too far down this rabbit hole...


Two microSDXC slots = 1 full sized SD slot in fuction.


A four card microSDXC RAID10 would have roughly the same or less performance than a two card SDXC RAID1.


Now, if you're talking about a snap on module to the Binky modular design with my 'make both sides the same' addition - then you COULD make a single module with 12! microSD slots (3 dual stacks front and back) and run RAID 6 on those - and have a truly bitchin' palm sized server... I wonder if a surface to surface connector could handle the bandwidth to run something like that. Hmm...

 

[Binky]

Screen should be WXGA 16:10, not FHD


Audio may be good enough already


I think wowing people is largely about unusual details - he pandora was (and is) unusual because of the keyboard - game controls combo


on the topic of raided micro SD, a pair of microSD cards has an advantage compared to a single SD card; they won't die at exactly the same time.


I wouldn't mind:


full SDXC (external)


quad microSD RAID 5 (internal)


RAID and pocket computing don't go together, which is a good reason why they should!

 

[overgauss]

Given Ed's wonderful ability to post good sense and constructive news, I think it might help if there were an official post detailing the outline plans for the P2, addressing key points like:

• Will it cost $750
  
• Whats this magical hardware deal that requires android as a stock install?
  
• Will it run real Linux out of the box
  
• Are we restricted to microSD card slots?
  
• How is the 8GB of ram going to be achieved?
  

Its early days yet, but the core customer base is being put off buying a product that hasn't really reached the drawing board - which is a crazy state of affairs

If microSD slots are used what is the max amount of slots we can have? I'd like to see 3 or even 4 slots. That way I could have 1 or 2 dedicated to music and videos the rest for games, os etc. I have A LOT of media and documents.

You know, if the P2 purposely used microSD to RAID them, I would probably be convinced that it was a good idea


Just as leaving space in the top corners of the iCP2 turns out to be for speakers, clearing the lid of the P2 for a huge screen


Another thought is that a premium console/palmtop should have a backpanel touchpad - PSvita style


Perhaps this explains the enthusiasm for android?

Not to get too far down this rabbit hole...


Two microSDXC slots = 1 full sized SD slot in fuction.


A four card microSDXC RAID10 would have roughly the same or less performance than a two card SDXC RAID1.


Now, if you're talking about a snap on module to the Binky modular design with my 'make both sides the same' addition - then you COULD make a single module with 12! microSD slots (3 dual stacks front and back) and run RAID 6 on those - and have a truly bitchin' palm sized server... I wonder if a surface to surface connector could handle the bandwidth to run something like that. Hmm...

Good infos. What are your thoughts on capacity versus number of slots vs cost for microSD compared against capacity versus number of slots vs cost for SD? For instance 4 32gb microSD =$84 (128gb total) vs 2 64gb SD= $200-$400. Then again I may be looking at it wrong and be missing certain other pros/cons. My hypothesis was that I could buy 4 cheap cards and upgrade overtime and still have more flexibility than the 2 SD card solution without adding much realestate. Also the microSD cards don't have to be right next to each other. At least one of them could be in the battery bay. Thoughts?

 

[Grench]

I wouldn't mind:


full SDXC (external)


quad microSD RAID 5 (internal)


RAID and pocket computing don't go together, which is a good reason why they should!

From an old-school server builder: If you're going to use RAID5, then you best use at least 5 disks - that is where the optimum space hit for the parity disk starts to click.


Frankly, if you're going to even consider RAID in the device, you're going to want to be able to handle several multiples of the fastest SD/microSD cards on the market - so that Bus would have to take 400MB/sec +/- in order to justify it. Not that that is such a bad thing.