Mips Vs Arm

[abigsmurf]

Thats a good point; the GP32 had nothign going on for the first while, and then a flurry of crazyness occurred.

Really, all of this sums up to this; beefy hardware makes things easy; crappier hardwaer makes it less easy.If its less easy, you need good coders.

The gp2x will likely have a smaller dev pool than the PSP (consider the GP32, which to this day is essentially unheard of. The linux kernel being present will multiply the attention hundred-fold.. notice how many /. posts there have already been, for instance.) but that may not matter.. 1 devoted dev is all you need.. the trick is finding them.

So the gp2x will, as the gp32 did, live or die based on developers.

Answer: Many/most of the GP32 devs are movign to the gp2x, and so the gp2x will have _at least_ a small but devoted bunch of devs.. so all the bases will be covered _fast_ (linux+sdl makes it easy), and the core apps will get good over a shortish period of time (since the minum pool of devs is already present.)

Any other device has a much harder time, since no devs are implied.. the gp2x gets a free pool of homebrew devs, plus the Unix/Linux bonus crowd. (ie: Its not just eh linux community.. we cannot count out the FreeBSD/OSX groups, etc.)

jeff

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However the PSP dev scene will shrink as more killer aps become available forcing users to update and the number of pre 2.50 systems begin to dry up

 

[Eolair]

Those fullscreen modes look like crap though, all squished and blurry.  That is the only thing I really don't like about emus on the PSP.  Other than that it is the best right now.  It will be interesting to see how close the GP2X could get.

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I think the horrible smearing/ghosting is almost worse than that.

 

[mr.mirko]

Both cores can do the same things, in the same time.
So a 200Mhz arm9 is NOT faster, and not slower than a mips r4000 core.

They are ~ 1:1

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Sure, we'll just take your word for it. You can't be wrong.

It more depends on the external bus speed, and how fast the machine can access the memory.

PSP: ddr ram, 32Bit access, connected 256Mbits.
Samsung 1st generation MCP 3.0V/2.5V 32MB 8 bit Uniform Block NAND Flash + 32MB 32 bit 6ns CL3 DDR.
The cpu/ram bus, runs with up to 333Mhz

gp2x: sd-ram ( not ddr-ram ), 133Mhz, 128Mbits.

So from the first view, the PSP ram is about 3x faster than the gp2x ram.

Conclusion. The PSP is at the same CPU clock, ~2x faster.

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Are you saying that if I simply switch 133MHz memory to 266MHz memory, my PC will start to run twice as fast? <_< That's even worse than those CPU clock speed debates.

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Iam not saying that switching to double speed ram, would make your computer 2xspeed.
But having a 256Bit widht BUS(compared to 128Bit), running 3xfaster (333Mhz, compared to 133Mhz), would make memory access about 3x faster. And COULD speed up the complete machine about ~2x.

Iam porting my 3d tube framebuffer benchmark to psp, we will see how fast it is, compared to my gp32. Until now i can only guess. I will post some benchmarks this weekend.

cu,

 

[mr.mirko]

However the PSP dev scene will shrink as more killer aps become available forcing users to update and the number of pre 2.50 systems begin to dry up

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12.000.000 PSP sold until now.... And noone would update his psp, to just play one game.
In the near future it will be possible to run the new BIOS, without installing it.

 

[codeninja]

12.000.000 PSP sold until now.... And noone would update his psp, to just play one game.

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There is a huge difference between shipped number and sell-through number. And, Sony don't let retailers to return the goods back to Sony once shipped. Nintendo always publish sell-through numbers whereas Sony always show shipped number. Along with the claim of 120 frames per second gameplay on PS3, that shady practice causes me to suspect their claims.

 

[mr.mirko]

Geez... The only person who moans more about this console is Mr Mirko....

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It seems he has become a PSP fanboi now. Maybe he knows something we don't yet.

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No, iam not making the gp2x down, iam telling the facts.
In my opinion the gp2x is not powerfull enought, for some new piece of hardware.
I stick with my gp32, all Emulators are running great, so why update to a gp2x, which will not offer more possiblities in running more Emulators.
To get a real Hardware boost, i bought a psp last week, and iam more than impressed.
Some emulators on the psp are not the quality of the gp32 ones, like the C64 emulator. But its only a matter of time.

cu,

 

[Cyclops]

12.000.000 PSP sold until now.... And noone would update his psp, to just play one game.
In the near future it will be possible to run the new BIOS, without installing it.

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I can't belive(I did check and its about right) 12,000,000, because in the UK I haven't seen that many around, people using them as well handheld gaming. I see more people with fancy phones and PDA's. I wonder who's buying them. I just assumed most people were waiting on pre-orders of the GP2X.

 

[codeninja]

I stick with my gp32, all Emulators are running great, so why update to a gp2x, which will not offer more possiblities in running more Emulators.

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So, you're shutting the door for us even before the console comes out. I wonder if you even have GP2x in your possession and ran some test to make those claims. Speaking of what GP2x's offerings, how about as simple as having 4 buttons on the face instead of 2 as on GP32 so that you can play SNES games properly? Unless you're saying all these as a flame bait, you better check your facts.

To get a real Hardware boost, i bought a psp last week, and iam more than impressed.

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Indeed, Sony named the machine right, Playstation "Portable", since all they've got is ported PS2 games. Yes, more than impressive.

 

[skeezix]

Mirko's a good lad; I doubt hes shutting the door on anything; but sounds like you have shut the door on the PSP, right?

Sony sucks; PSP hasn't a lot of great games, but there definately are some nice ones coming out soon (like, this month); still, who cares? The requirements to devs are different than others.. the PSP is freaking nifty to develop for, and is quite powerful.. even if most of the games are dull right now. (Untol Legends is not bad; Ridge Racer is slick; Mercury I dig. Lumines is pretty, but boring. Wipeouture./. pretty good. I bought the PSP for devving on, and for Untol Legends, but I look forward to Legend of Heroes and Lord of the Rings:Tactics this month.. though I expetc both to remove much of my ability to dev on the unit. Thats okay, I'm getting a gp2x soon, and already have some dozen units to dev for if I'm hard up )

The GP2x shoudl be very fun to dev for as well.. but the specs _are low_ for a machien coming out these days; dual processing is neic and all, but I've had 200MHz devices for 3 or 4 years, and my phone is more than 300MHz fast; sure, its a phone, and lacks a fast system bus and big display.. but its a phone

Really, when somethign is said.. it doesn't make you 'anti something', its just a statement (of opinion which could be revised later, or of fact.) ie: I equally critcize pretty much everything, nice and balanced.. but its amusing that as soon as you say something criticising a gp32, your'e a GBA-fanboy; criticize the GBA and you're a Sony fanboy. Mirko isn't a fanboy, just as you aren't a gp2x fanboy.

jeff

Dont' midn me; I'm meandering around and making no sense. Not enough sleep in weeks

 

[Eolair]

Iam not saying that switching to double speed ram, would make your computer 2xspeed.
But having a 256Bit widht BUS(compared to 128Bit), running 3xfaster (333Mhz, compared to 133Mhz), would make memory access about 3x faster. And COULD speed up the complete machine about ~2x.

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I'm "PSP ignorant" but isn't the system bus 128bit 111/166MHz? :unsure:

 

[reallynotnick]

Well I thought the chip set the gp2x (what is it MMS2, idk magic eyes or what ever), ran at 266mhz really. I looked at the data sheet and thats what it says.

 

[mr.mirko]

Iam not saying that switching to double speed ram, would make your computer 2xspeed.
But having a 256Bit widht BUS(compared to 128Bit), running 3xfaster (333Mhz, compared to 133Mhz), would make memory access about 3x faster. And COULD speed up the complete machine about ~2x.

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I'm "PSP ignorant" but isn't the system bus 128bit 111/166MHz? :unsure:

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The specs of the psp:
£ Main CPU (System clock frequency 1~333MHz), MIPS32R2 ’Allegrex’ core (little endian)
£ Media Engine CPU (System clock frequency 1~333MHz), MIPS32R2 core (little endian)
£ Main Memory 32MB (DDR SDRAM)
£ Flash Memory 32MB
£ Embedded DRAM 4MB

The Memory Bus is half of the CPU speed.
CPU is running with 333MHZ -> MEMORY running with 166Mhz.

But its DDR ram, so its internely running with 333Mhz. ( you can move 2 words at one clock )

 

[judge0]

Never thought I'd see the day an advanced dev like mr mirko would be flamed by community members for reporting observations . . .

 

[Winterkid]

I think most poeple just took his defence of the PSP as an offensive against the GP2X as his wording seemed a bit on the negative side. He just said he himself doesnt' see a point for HIM getting a GP2X as he wanted something with a lot more RAW power, I think. At least that's what I can gather when looking for the silver lining there.

If he wishes to stick with the GP32 and the PSP, then more power to him. Maybe in the future he'll think different about the GP2X, maybe not. Until then, I'm glad he's staying with the GP32 at least

 

[Eolair]

The Memory Bus is half of the CPU speed.
CPU is running with 333MHZ -> MEMORY running with 166Mhz.

But its DDR ram, so its internely running with 333Mhz. ( you can move 2 words at one clock )

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Thanks for explaining, mr.mirko. I forgot about the double data rate :rolleyes:

Well I thought the chip set the gp2x (what is it MMS2, idk magic eyes or what ever), ran at 266mhz really. I looked at the data sheet and thats what it says.

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The bus clock is 1-133Mhz and the CPU 1-266Mhz, according to the MMSP2 Data book.

 

[abigsmurf]

12.000.000 PSP sold until now.... And noone would update his psp, to just play one game.
In the near future it will be possible to run the new BIOS, without installing it.

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12million shipped, not sold ^_-

Sony are always good at manipulating figures

 

[Eolair]

Ok...here is ignorant me again. I'm just trying to make sense of something and I hope someone can answer.

If you calculate the theoretical peak bandwidth for the GP2X and PSP it looks like this:

GP2X 16x133 = 2128 (2.1 GB/s)
PSP 16x166x2 = 5312 (5.3 GB/s)

Pretty straight forward if you ask me, right? But why then is the offical bus bandwidth (mentioned on pretty much every psp site) of the PSP 2.6GB/s? (That would be 16X166). It's like they're ignoring the dual date rate or something? :huh:

Maybe Sony forgot to add a DDR bus

 

[Huxley]

To be honest, I don't know why everyone is so eager to compare the PSP to the GP2X. If you want a PSP, get one.

Personally speaking, I'm buying a GP2X for several reasons. Not least for the excellent devs & community that will be supporting it, but also beause the company behind it are in turn supporting those devs and that community. I really can't see Sony doing the same thing with the PSP.

Which kinda makes all those specs irrelevant, doesn't it?

I stick with my gp32, all Emulators are running great, so why update to a gp2x, which will not offer more possiblities in running more Emulators.

I'm sure this is just a slight misunderstanding, but that isn't strictly true is it? As you yourself have said, the GP2X should offer more possibilities even if it does take a lot of work to get the best out of the hardware. So it *will* offer more possiblities in running more emulators...just not right away

 

[Radek]

Do you want a pissing contest? Alright. :rolleyes:

Question one: how many $ did the Sony cost developing the PSP and how many $ are needed for producing one PSP?

The GP2x's MMSP2 is a common hardware and as such it costs pennies.

Iam not saying that switching to double speed ram, would make your computer 2xspeed.
But having a 256Bit widht BUS(compared to 128Bit), running 3xfaster (333Mhz, compared to 133Mhz), would make memory access about 3x faster. And COULD speed up the complete machine about ~2x.

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Nonsense unless the code is doing nothing else that memory access. This is not the case.

But its DDR ram, so its internely running with 333Mhz. ( you can move 2 words at one clock )

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Only "move", not access. DDR is not the same as having the SDR at twice the clock.

But you know what it is that? The GP2x doesn't have a hardware 3d accelerator and bandwith is far less important then. So if you want to compare things... let it do to a full extent. Start with video and tell me one thing the PSP is so much better than the GP2x. Can you really? Is the PSP able to play a Divx5 encoded video directly, is it? Oh no... it's not... (actually the MMSP2 can encode too)

Then go to the 2d graphics and what the PSP has what the GP2x hasn't? Yeah, by utilising the "GPU" of the PSP you can probably overcome the VP/VPP/2DP of the GP2x but really what you gained then? An excessive battery utilisation for a proof of what?

Only thing the PSP has over the GP2x is its 3d processing. In both vertex and pixel 3d the PSP can not be matched by Gp2x as it simply doesn't have a hardware for this. Does it make then the GP2x poor or a poo? Of course not!

Look at the GP32 and what could be accomplished! By any means hardware of GP2x is not perfect but it is not poor! The GP2x is so superior to the GP32 and after some time results will show.

And if like so much the PSP and Sony (if not then you should vomit on the PSP immedietaly) then read this:
http://www.sysinternals.com/blog/2005/10/s...tal-rights.html
Is your humour fine yet? If Sony could do this to the platform it's not controlling then what it will do to the platform it is controlling?

 

[Radek]

Ok...here is ignorant me again. I'm just trying to make sense of something and I hope someone can answer.

If you calculate the theoretical peak bandwidth for the GP2X and PSP it looks like this:

GP2X 16x133 = 2128 (2.1 GB/s)
PSP 16x166x2 = 5312 (5.3 GB/s)

Pretty straight forward if you ask me, right? But why then is the offical bus bandwidth (mentioned on pretty much every psp site) of the PSP 2.6GB/s? (That would be 16X166). It's like they're ignoring the dual date rate or something? :huh:

Maybe Sony forgot to add a DDR bus

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Your maths are wrong. The GP2x has at best the 32 bits sdr memory at 133MHz. It gives 532MB/s so the PSP is superior to the GP2x in this aspect. But funnily it doesn't matter much. The GP2x is a different kind of machine than the PSP. If you want see the GP2x as a direct competitor to the PSP then you will be disappointed. The GP2x isn't in direct competition to the PSP, if there is one it's the XGP!

The GP2x doesn't is really a successor to the GP32 too!

Look at practical uses of the GP2x... it's a very capable video/music player (you can actually play a Divx5 codec video directly in it) and this is a reason alone to get the GP2x. Imho the rest (emulation and "homebrew") is just added bonus to the GP2x.