Lifespan Of Li Batteries

[SomeGuy99]

* The fuel cells cost like a million dollars and are all prototypes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_FCX_Clarity

Figure was about £100,000 or so. Today's super expensive sportscar is tommorows boring family saloon.

It's also not a prototype because you can currently hire them. Top Gear gave one a road test and actually loved the thing.

The only infrastructure needed is to change the pumps at stations. You basically just need water and an electrical current to make the stuff. As for the dynamics of pumping gas... well, I'm not a scientist!

The article says there are already hydrogen stations dotted around.

Oh, interesting:

Honda believes it could start mass producing vehicles based on the FCX Clarity by the year 2018.

Add another five years onto that, for luck. So in the 2020's then?

Batteries completely suck for cars due to the charging time. Hydrogen stores the electricity and releases it in the same way, but you can refuel the car instantly, in any supported location.

 

[wdt]

SomeG: hydrogen is not very energy dense, even when liquid
Hydrogen is really "leaky", very high quality components needed
Nobody talks about efficiencies, I suspect both sides are poor

> trickle charging a full battery is dangerous http://en.wikipedia....attery#Charging
99.9% of liion bats have charge controller circuitry
This does 3 jobs
A) absolutly prevents overcharge and over heat
B: prevents discharge past 0.5%
C) when over discharged to -3% kills battery (since by then it's damaged)

Gizmo: these batteries are probably both bad, they should not
behave as you have described. Get out your DVM and make a log (volts, time)
I hope they are not stored in a hot place?

dave

 

[craigix]

I think the hydrogen car is forever to be a dream, I could rant about why it just does not work in the real world but I'm sure all of you who would be interested already know the downfalls of it.

It's electric all the way, first via hybrids but all cars will go electric sooner or later. The way they work is just far far better than the mess that is the ICE. Electric propulsion is so elegant that it is the natural way forward. No oil, no transmission, instant torque, cheap to charge, crazy fast, clean, quiet, fully charged every morning... I love it.

I'm currently working towards building my own electric car, maybe in the body of a Smart Roadster. It's a long term project but something I hope I can complete in 2011/12 as the off the shelf parts become more and more available.

Back to the Pandora, does your battery lose the charge if it isn't in the Pandora?

 

[neko]

Back to the Pandora, does your battery lose the charge if it isn't in the Pandora?

It doesn't seem to, but the battery meter loses its calibration. With the battery in the Pandora, it keeps track of how much current goes into and out of the battery. When you pull out the battery and put it back in, it tries to estimate the charge level based on the voltage. This isn't entirely accurate and may be a few percent more or less than what it showed before.

 

[SomeGuy99]

I think the hydrogen car is forever to be a dream, I could rant about why it just does not work in the real world but I'm sure all of you who would be interested already know the downfalls of it.

It's electric all the way, first via hybrids but all cars will go electric sooner or later.

A Hydrogen Fuel Cell is electric; it basically acts as a battery. It doesn't use the hydrogen like a fuel, or anything like that.

Thoeretically, it is the superior electrical storage method we.

True story: I'm waiting for electric cars before I learn to drive. I'm not deliberately polluting the streets just because the the system is set up that way.

 

[zounder1]

Isn't this why hydrogen fuel cells have been proposed/created for cars?

The energy is stored as hydrogen by splitting apart water, which is then recombined within the car (released said energy). No chemicals are involved, right?

I think the biggest issue will be maintaining the motor or something.

I actually had the opportunity to drive hydrogen fuel cell cars on public roads. I also had the opportunity after said drives to pepper some high level engineers on the challenges they were facing. None seemed insurmountable.

Useless factoids:
The fuel cell actually generates a LOT of heat when in convert hydrogen to electricity... which they deal with a honest to goodness quality radiator. Yep , the heating system is identical to a gasoline fuelled car...

The car I drove had a 300 mile range... not bad at all. But the cool thing was the tanks were improving in capacity. So when then swapped in the next gen storage tank they expected to double the range without any other changes to the basic design of the car.

It was quite a hoot to floor the car on public roads and see what it could do. The regenerative brakes rumbled a bit under heavy breaking, but I was told they just needed to be adjusted a bit.

I think the biggest challenge is actually developing the fuelling infrastructure. It seems simple, but it is expensive to actually roll out. Battery based cars have appeal as the electric grid infrastructure exists now.

Remember that you need some sort of energy (electricity typically) to create hydrogen. So while it may be clean running a fuel-cell car, the energy used to fuel said car may not be clean whatsoever.

 

[Mjlink]

I almsot backed into a Tesla the other night in a parking lot leaving dinner.

A. Didn't hear it
B. My rear windows are extremely dark tinted
C. There is normally a kayak in the back of my Subaru Wagon
D. They have an extremely low profile

My insurance company is thankful.

Peace & Pandora,

Link

PS Craig, thought you might be going all Clive Sinclair with this electrical car rubbish.

 

[centus]

I almsot backed into a Tesla the other night in a parking lot leaving dinner.

A. Didn't hear it
B. My rear windows are extremely dark tinted
C. There is normally a kayak in the back of my Subaru Wagon
D. They have an extremely low profile

My insurance company is thankful.

Peace & Pandora,

Link

PS Craig, thought you might be going all Clive Sinclair with this electrical car rubbish.

My thoughts exactly, I imagine Craig takes it as a compliment, but that last segment made me think of Clive instantly...

 

[lulzfish]

A Hydrogen Fuel Cell is electric; it basically acts as a battery. It doesn't use the hydrogen like a fuel, or anything like that.

Thoeretically, it is the superior electrical storage method we.

True story: I'm waiting for electric cars before I learn to drive. I'm not deliberately polluting the streets just because the the system is set up that way.

Sounds like it does:
"In the U.S., it is only available to customers who live in Southern California where "fast-fill" hydrogen stations are available"

Otherwise it would have to store the water and re-electrolyze it when you charge it, which would be inefficient (I don't think electrolysis is efficient at all), and take a long time, and it would have to have a very large electrolyzer on board to charge in 5 minutes.

zounder1 is right, it's actually much cheaper to make hydrogen by... wait for it... breaking apart fossil fuels. Last I heard, that was the predominant method of making hydrogen, since electrolysis is so inefficient.

 

[DaveC]

I think the hydrogen car is forever to be a dream, I could rant about why it just does not work in the real world but I'm sure all of you who would be interested already know the downfalls of it.

It's electric all the way, first via hybrids but all cars will go electric sooner or later. The way they work is just far far better than the mess that is the ICE. Electric propulsion is so elegant that it is the natural way forward. No oil, no transmission, instant torque, cheap to charge, crazy fast, clean, quiet, fully charged every morning... I love it.

I'm currently working towards building my own electric car, maybe in the body of a Smart Roadster. It's a long term project but something I hope I can complete in 2011/12 as the off the shelf parts become more and more available.

Yes hydrogen powered cars are a joke. We don't live on Jupiter. Why do they not let it die? Why do the corporations spend millions to sucker us into believing hydrogen is practical? Simple, because you have to BUY the hydrogen from a company who produces it and you have to go to the fuel station to buy it. This all means they can control, price fix, and gouge you on the price of the hydrogen just like they do with petrol.

Because of the high pressures involved there is no "homebrew" hydrogen. Even if you could make it, compressing it to super high pressure of around 10,000 psi (which in itself requires energy) and putting it into the vehicle is impossible for us as consumers. This means it wants to get out of that tank REAL bad. A tiny pin hole leak somewhere means even if you don't drive the car you can come out to an empty tank. Everyone maintains their cars perfectly right? Things don't break or become faulty right? I also wouldn't want to be near one of these cars if it gets in a major accident or the tank fails - BOOOM!! If you don't compress it then you get no range. I don't think a car that goes 2 miles would be very popular.

Electric? Well you could put solar panels on your house and make your own electricity to charge the car. They REALLY don't want you doing that. Worse yet for them is when solar cells are cheaper and get to 30-40% efficient. At this point solar cells imbedded in the hood, trunk, and roof of the car will be trickle charging the car all day as it sits out in the sun at work or wherever. This after a week of use may give you 1 free day of juice. Now do that for millions of cars everywhere and it adds up.

Good article explaining hydrogen here. http://energybulletin.net/node/2401

The efficiency of an ICE is average efficiency (to produce work) of about 18%-20%. Most of the energy is wasted as heat.

The efficiency of an electric motor can be over 90% This means most of the energy is actually used to move the car.

They have Lithium batteries that can be charged over 5000 times now I heard. That is many years of use.

 

[Gilrad]

Actually, the most amazing idea I have ever heard of for electric vehicles is "battery swapping".

Instead of trying to engineer the perfect battery that can charge in five minutes and last 300 miles or whatever, this one company (Better Place is the one I think that is making the most progress, iirc) decides its an infrastructure issue.

Some things that I have heard being bandied about this method:
-Its fast and automatic. The stations take like, 30 seconds and you don't have to get out of your car.
-You don't actually own the batteries, you lease them. Sorta like how cellphones work; you own the device but the company leases the use of it.
-This means cars can come super cheap: all you buy is a car frame with four electric motors, very little parts machining involved, compared to other cars an EV without a battery is quite cheap.
-They can subsidize the cars to make them even cheaper
-Fewer machined parts means you don't need to be a gigantic corporation to make cars. Though a bit of a rocky example, Tesla shows this.
-The method is locked down, though... Only stations owned by the company can interface with cars, and only cars licensed by the company can interface with the stations... We'll see how well this "one man show" can last.

 

[dnlgreenwood]

I had my DS since January 2007, and Its still going! not as much as before, but it holds out. I used it A LOT, almost every day. Its a Lithium Ion battery... so thats 2.5 years so far. My DS is currently "out of service" forever though...

I usually let my DS battery fully discharge before recharging it. I read that this prolongs the life of Lithium Ion batteries. (I read this in several manufacturer's manuals, like the one for my HP Mini.) But if a Lithium Ion battery FULLY discharges, it can never recharge again, but all modern Lithium Ion rechargeable batteries have safeguards in place to prevent this from happening. In most laptops, you can replace the batteries inside the battery instead of buying a new one. Thats right! Just pop open an un-working laptop battery and you will see some cells tabbed together. just get ones with the same voltage and same or higher amperage, solder them in, and there! good as new. My Sony Vaio PCG-R505GL's battery is as good as dead, it runs for 8 minutes under normal circumstances. I havent gotten arround to fixing it, but I might once I buy my soldering iron. The Pandora's battery probably does not contain replaceable cells, since it is so slim, but in theory you could make your own battery. I would advize against this, though, because its a Pandora, not an old laptop that sits in your closet like my Vaio. The Pandora has phenomenal battery life, and that is great. It wouldnt be too much of a bother to replace it, as it is such a good battery... or is it the console itself? dunno.

I might find some cheap rechargeables for my gamegear, or make my own battery pack.

 

[mali]

well, ive charged one of them, put it into the battery case, and used the other battery i have.

and when ive needed to switch, the battery that had a full charge upon storage, now have under 30%
this has happened reapetedly, with both batteries for me :/

Check the mini-FAQ in the Tweaks Thread. MWeston explained in detail how to test batteries.

 

[tsh]

well, ive charged one of them, put it into the battery case, and used the other battery i have.

and when ive needed to switch, the battery that had a full charge upon storage, now have under 30%
this has happened reapetedly, with both batteries for me :/

Check the mini-FAQ in the Tweaks Thread. MWeston explained in detail how to test batteries.

This certainly seems out-of-spec. I don't think we've had any other measurements of batteries left standing for more than a day (where the loss should be negligable, but there were some that got returned). In this case, I wonder if the charge meter is getting confused by the swap. My meter did seem to be getting pessimistic with my single battery if I kept short-cycling it (down to only 80% before recharge).
We need more data on batteries.
On this page, http://pandorawiki.org/Talkower_modes click 'edit' on the heading that says self-discharge, add your observation and forum name.
(at the moment, it is all based on my battery, which might be unusually good)

 

[PhillipJ]

Isn't this why hydrogen fuel cells have been proposed/created for cars?

The energy is stored as hydrogen by splitting apart water, which is then recombined within the car (released said energy). No chemicals are involved, right?

I think the biggest issue will be maintaining the motor or something.

Hydrogen isn't really the best fuel for fuel cells. It's probably the easiest for guys in the lab but as far as a mass market product it's next to useless, mostly due to its low energy density. Since fuel cells can work using pretty much anything you can burn powering them with alcohol or LPG, for which there is already established distribution infrastructure, would be well worth the delay in getting them to market and possibly some efficiency sacrifice.

 

[Emnasut]

Electric? Well you could put solar panels on your house and make your own electricity to charge the car. They REALLY don't want you doing that. Worse yet for them is when solar cells are cheaper and get to 30-40% efficient. At this point solar cells imbedded in the hood, trunk, and roof of the car will be trickle charging the car all day as it sits out in the sun at work or wherever. This after a week of use may give you 1 free day of juice. Now do that for millions of cars everywhere and it adds up.

I want those solar cells on the lid of the pandora, I wonder how much extra battery time that would give...

 

[mali]

^ Not much and you shouldn't put the Pandora in direct sunlight.

 

[GizmoTheGreen]

Gizmo: these batteries are probably both bad, they should not
behave as you have described. Get out your DVM and make a log (volts, time)
I hope they are not stored in a hot place?

dave

DVM?

 

[mali]

^ Digital VoltMeter.

 

[urjaman]

^ Digital VoltMeter.

That's a DMM (okay, it is a DVM, but really its a DMM, as are most (all?) of DVMs nowadays)