Is Pyra expensive outdated hardware?

[danielo515]

Hello,

Please don't understand this as a complain, I am writing this because I am really worried about this topic.

Don't misunderstood me, I love my pandy and I will buy a Pyra for sure, but I am a bit concerned about the hardware and the feeling that on this community any "external usb gadget" is fine for a portable device. 

I bought my Pandy on 2013, more or less the same year I bough my galaxy note 8. Today my galaxy note 8 is a decent piece of hardware capable of almost any task in the day to day: fluid web browsing, good graphics gaming, video playback (yes HD), video conference, hdmi video output, remote file management, decent wifi signal and the screen resolution is perfectly fine.

Pandora on the other hand is an absolutely outdated piece of hardware which I payed more than 500€ for it: 800x600 screen resolution which is bad for almost any task, slow web browsing most of the times, bad wifi signal with slow download speed... The only thing great about it in currently are  their controls, the form factor and the community. Pandora is totally dead right now: no hardware replacements, no WiFi drivers, you can't even buy a new one if you want to.

I have been following the Pyra for some time now, and I see that things are going the same way, and what is even worse, community usually prefers a cheaper piece of hardware (usually less than 5$ difference) rather than a "future proof" component. Some examples about this are the lack of a camera, a wifi chip of 2.4Ghz instead of 5GHz and the use of micro-usb when we are already moving to usb-c. Answers like "buy an usb dongle" or "use an usb webcam" are so common that I am scared. Any smartphone in the range of 200 - 300€ has more brute force and better hardware than the Pyra will have. You can do almost anything with a cheap smartphone. They are even able to emulate PS2 or game cube, tasks that I seriously doubt the Pyra will be able to accomplish. 

I can understand that we are not an Asian giant, and we have to pay more for the same hardware because we are not going to produce 50k devices, but I expect something that is going to cost more that 500€ to be at least solvent for common tasks nowadays.

As I said, I am not writing this to complain. I really expect some answers that shows me how wrong I am. People explaining me that the hardware is totally fine and that I will be able to use Pyra as a gaming console but also as a laptop replacement. I want to see that the same errors the pandora suffers from will not be present on the pyra.

Many thanks, and regards.

 

[ekianjo]

Lol is this a troll in disguise!?

 

[Caine]

It is unfortunate that the latest and greatest chips cannot be purchased in low-volume. So indeed, the Pyra will always be behind smartphones in terms of raw performance numbers. This is slightly offset by the fact that it does not have the overhead of Android but still it will be slow in comparison.

The pyra design takes upgradability into account and has a separate CPU board which houses the system-on-chip. This will allow the team to create faster units without having to upgrade the case, display and attached peripherals.

I'm not sure what the final verdict is on 2.4Ghz vs 5Ghz Wifi. So far my impression was that quite a few community members voted for the more future proof 5Ghz.

I share your opinion on the camera, but it seems that ship has sailed. Can't win them all, I suppose. Unfortunately quite a few vocal community members argued against it and paired with space and cost limitations (as you say yourself, it is already an expensive unit) this was not included. I agree that USB cameras are non-optimal (and yes, that is an understatement).

The major selling point of the Pandora and Pyra over the mobile phones are the gaming controls, physical keyboard and open OS. If this alone does not convince you then maybe it is not the right product for you.

 

[ekianjo]

800x600 screen resolution which is bad for almost any task, slow web browsing most of the times, bad wifi signal with slow download speed...

looks like you have not upgraded your firmware for a while...

The only thing great about it in currently are their controls, the form factor and the community.

Lol, you forgot to mention the OS. I guess the pandora is REALLY not for you.

no hardware replacements, no WiFi drivers, you can't even buy a new one if you want to.

WTF about wifi drivers ? Did you smoke something illegal before writing your post ?

As for hardware replacements, you know there is a shop right ? And there's a used market as well.

Answers like "buy an usb dongle" or "use an usb webcam" are so common that I am scared

If you like stuff all shiny and pre-digested for you, you are bound to meet disappointments with Pandora/Pyra. It's NOT a consumer device like a smartphone.

Any smartphone in the range of 200 - 300€ has more brute force and better hardware than the Pyra will have

So what? you have a keyboard on smartphones ? You can run Linux applications without having to root the hell of it with binaries from shady websites ?

 

[elw3]

Actually its the opposite: 

The pandora was at its release the most powerful handheld out there. 

And the Pyra will be more powerful than what Nindendo or Sony has as handheld lineup. 

Again its a gaming console, dont apply the usual "oh look it has higher numbers, it is so much better" crap on that.

 

[ekianjo]

You can do almost anything with a cheap smartphone. They are even able to emulate PS2 or game cube, tasks that I seriously doubt the Pyra will be able to accomplish.

Good luck playing PS2 on a smartphone. It sucks bad.

Anyway, stick with a smartphone if that's what you prefer. Nobody is forcing you to buy a Pyra with a gun on your temple.

As I said, I am not writing this to complain

Really? Sounded a lot like it.

I want to see that the same errors the pandora suffers

The Pandora has not much design mistakes. It was designed back in 2007-8, and I'd challenge you to find a hardware from 2008 which is as well supported as the pandora nowadays.

Again its a gaming console

Who says so ? Even the Pandora is more a computer than a console. Look at how many useful applications we have running on it. It's amazing what you can do with it.

 

[benoitb]

To me the Pyra will be quite expensive, not yet outdated (for 200€, you aren't getting a phone with Cortex A15 power in the SOC, for 300€ maybe with an Intel chip like in Asus' Zenfones).

This is the price to pay for the keyboard, gamepad, Debian, USB ports, etc...

There is no alternative really. If you factor a decent bluetooth keyboard, bluetooth gamepad, smart dock for your Galaxy Phone, you add easily 150€ to the buying price (500+150 maybe ?). You still don't get neither Debian, neither the portability of an all-in-one where everything (but the camera ) is integrated.

How to you type on a keyboard in your couch ? In a bus ? Can you backup your camera to an HDD from your tent while hiking or cycling ? How conviniently ?

There are so many use cases where this form factor and OS combination has no competition.

 

[Caine]

In a combative mood today, ekianjo? The guy has some valid points which many consumers will share.

The important thing to note here is that the issues he raises are not selling points for typical Pyra customer. It is a totally different class of device. A desktop/console hybrid intended to be used as such. Until the convergence vision takes off, the majority of people will not be running desktop versions of their software on a phone, while this is totally a normal thing to do on a Pyra or Pandora.

If you view the Pyra as a handheld gaming console then it is very powerful. Main competition here would be from the NVidia Shield like devices.

If you view the Pyra as a mobile phone then it is underpowered, a weird form-factor and lacking peripherals (cameras).

If you view the Pyra as a desktop computer then it is almost unique in its kind.

If you view the Pyra as a media player then it is just very expensive.

And yet...it is all of these (well, maybe not really a phone). The whole package is a unique device, delivering an experience not found anywhere else. It is also a niche. Therefore you pay premium prices.

 

[ekianjo]

In a combative mood today, ekianjo? The guy has some valid points which many consumers will share.

Oh, sure, those are valid points. It's the same validity that makes me NOT recommend the pandora for everyone around me, but only for some people who will genuinely appreciate its utility. The pandora and the Pyra are not ready for mass-market (and the way it's made would not allow it either in terms of volume). It's very much a hacker / developer device at heart. Of course, emulation and games can attract a wider crowd, but I have always thought this was not the best way to present the Pandora, because ultimately you don't stay on the Pandora JUST for the emulation aspect or the raw specs.

 

[EvilDragon]

I think we got threads like this at least once a year


And yes, depending on what you are planning to do, the price might be way too high or too low.


Speaking about outdated: By raw numbers... yes. Especially the display when people want 4k now with 5"


Does it make sense? Not in my opinion. We had a FullHD screen sourced first, but it caused a lot of problems with only little advantage.


Not the driver - that worked. But with a standard Linux desktop, all icons were way too small.


There is a dpi setting, but some apps like Gimp or FireFox simply ignore that, so you need to set them up manually to make them usable... not really helpful.


Also, we showed both a 720p and 1080p 5" screen to various users and they couldn't see a difference.


So 720p here is not outdated it's simply useful.


The SoC is not that outdated actually, it's still the same or more than normal mid-class phones have. Anything else is not possible for quantities less than 500k probably.


However, as someone mentioned:


One of the main features however is the upgradeability.


The Pyra has been designed that it can be upgraded by the user.


You can simply buy a new CPU board, mainboard or LCD and replace it yourself, without having to buy a completely new device.


And PS2 on smartphones? I'd love to see that first

 

[_jr_]

I'd say the mass market isn't ready for the Pyra


And as already has been said that implies production runs at the MOQ of most parts (and IIRC even below that making fund raising more interesting) which results in unit prices several times more expensive than a similar device manufactured in 100k runs. If you adjust the price for that you'll see that not only is Pandora/Pyra offering a unique set of features, it is also pretty cheap given these features (including an open design and a somewhat fair production). That is because markup is very small (compared to branded phones) and there is no cross subsidizing by game sales (compared to some consoles). But the retail price will be high, there's nothing that can be done about that.


NB: It's funny to have this discussion even before the Pyra prototype is ready.

 

[danielo515]

Wow, so many answers in such period of time. It is good, this shows how active Pandora scene is.

I had to wait and hit F5 several times before answering to not miss anything, Wow.

The first thing that impressed me is how many times and how many people encouraged me to not buy a pyra. I don't think this is the good way to make scene grow, seriously. Looks like you want to keep the scene restricted to the people that "understands the concept without any explanation". This is specially surprising because I said that I already have a Pandora and I am enjoining it, so the concept is not alien to me and you can't say that I have no idea what I am talking about. Just because I own a pandora and I use it I know perfectly what I am missing on it.

I don't need anyone telling me that I should buy an smartphone if I want an smartphone. Thank you, but I already have one, and I will probably buy a new one if I feel that I need it, no problem on that. But, believe it or not, I also want a Pyra, and I will prefer it to be future proof.

I really appreciate the answers that gives me another point of view. Let's answer them.

You still don't get neither Debian, neither the portability of an all-in-one where everything (but the camera ) is integrated.

That's exactly the point. There are very few things that are keeping Pyra away or being the definitive device. I would love to just say "I love my Pyra! It's perfect" rather than "I love my Pyra! but wish it has a small front camera".

The pyra design takes upgradability into account and has a separate CPU board which houses the system-on-chip. This will allow the team to create faster units without having to upgrade the case

One of the main features however is the upgradeability. The Pyra has been designed that it can be upgraded by the user.

That is an absolutely positive point about it. I heard that on a video where EvilDragon was showing the Pandora history to a group of.. students? However I don't have any electronic or low level hardware skills, so I totally depend on what others want to do with this. Hopefully Pyra will be updated more than once. Does this mean that, maybe, we can sell a different screen board that integrates a camera? How hard or easy will be to get hardware updates? It's different being able to update that actually updating. Is the GPU integrated int he same chipset? Will we be able to upgrade the GPU also?

Especially the display when people want 4k now with 5"

I also find this stupid. In fact, I have not updated my smartphone (xperia z) because It fits perfectly for my usage.I don't like the extra battery and extra power 4k screens costs. I would prefer a full HD screen, but if you say that the difference it is not noticeable, I will trust you.

If you view the Pyra as a handheld gaming console then it is very powerful. Main competition here would be from the NVidia Shield like devices.

The Nvidia shield is the device I was thinking about when I wrote about PS2 and game cube emulation. I am not a hardware expert, so I will believe whatever you answer to this question: Is Pyra more powerful than PSVita? If so, then I'm totally fine with it. 

I know that Pyra will be an expensive device, and that is exactly my main point about it. I can imagine the reviews : " a very powerful and dynamic product inexplicably lacking some common features for such high priced device".

Again, thanks to all of those that gave me peace of mind.

 

[danielo515]

It was designed back in 2007-8, and I'd challenge you to find a hardware from 2008 which is as well supported as the pandora nowadays.

 That is true, but it is thanks to Pandora community (including EvilDragon)

looks like you have not upgraded your firmware for a while...

 

that is true also. I did it recently and  Wifi speed has improved a lot with the latest update.

 

[Caine]

The first thing that impressed me is how many times and how many people encouraged me to not buy a pyra. I don't think this is the good way to make scene grow, seriously. Looks like you want to keep the scene restricted to the people that "understands the concept without any explanation". This is specially surprising because I said that I already have a Pandora and I am enjoining it, so the concept is not alien to me and you can't say that I have no idea what I am talking about. Just because I own a pandora and I use it I know perfectly what I am missing on it.

Fair point, I stand corrected for my contribution to this. Perhaps this is the reason why it is good to have these discussions from time to time.

Does this mean that, maybe, we can sell a different screen board that integrates a camera? How hard or easy will be to get hardware updates? It's different being able to update that actually updating. Is the GPU integrated int he same chipset? Will we be able to upgrade the GPU also?

Camera is harder as it might need changes to the case. In theory, if a screen physically fits and integrates a camera then it can be included. Updating the board is a matter of opening up the unit, unplugging the CPU board en replacing with a new one. It should not be hard to do at all. The system on chip that is on the board includes memory, CPU and GPU. So yes, all of these can be upgraded.

The Nvidia shield is the device I was thinking about when I wrote about PS2 and game cube emulation. I am not a hardware expert, so I will believe whatever you answer to this question: Is Pyra more powerful than PSVita? If so, then I'm totally fine with it.

Good question. I'm not that knowledgeable on the performance characteristics of specific ARM processors. I'll leave this one to the experts.

I know that Pyra will be an expensive device, and that is exactly my main point about it. I can imagine the reviews : " a very powerful and dynamic product inexplicably lacking some common features for such high priced device".

Yes, that's nothing new. It was the same for the Pandora. In the Camera thread I described the camera as one of those typical checkbox features. Most people that showed interest in the Pandora were immediately thrown off when they learned it couldn't make phone calls. I expect the same with the camera. It is a set-back in features they are used to from their main computing device which they always carry around (i.e. the smartphone) and thus it is typically unacceptable for them to not have that feature (even if they never use it).

 

[WizardStan]

Is it expensive? Yes, with good reason. When compared to an out-of-contract phone it's only slightly more expensive for the same stuff, actually.

Is it outdated? No. The Pandora isn't outdated. By definition it cannot be outdated until something comes along to replace it. The Pandora is very shortly going to be outdated when it is replaced by the Pyra but unless another company releases something more powerful with a similar feature set it's going to be king of its castle for a while. If you think that a high end phone will suit your needs then get it, I still need my physical keyboard and game controls thank you very much.

Does it use outdated hardware? Not really, the OMAP5 is still a current production; there may be SoCs which are arguably more powerful but EvilDragon couldn't even get them so there's no point in fretting about it. The Pyra is literally as powerful as it can possibly get, the only way it could possibly have been more powerful is if he'd gone with an Intel SoC and there are many reasons why he chose not to do that (although might in the future).

As for the "not future proofing" I think you are being a little unfair. I don't think I saw anyone vehemently opposed to 5Ghz in that thread, if it makes it in the extra 20-30EUR probably won't break anyones back, at least not those who were already going to shell out the 500EUR for it. BUT, ED isn't paying individual, he needs to buy 1000 of them up front, at least. That's an extra 14000EUR. He expressed a concern at such a high cost, asked if people actually used it enough to justify the cost, and people responded with reasons they do or do not use it. That is all. EvilDragon will decide if it's worth it.

But here's the thing that you completely missed: even if he puts the 2.4Ghz in now this is in no way a limiting thing; the chip with the 5Ghz addition is pin compatible with the 2.4Ghz. He could put the 2.4Ghz in the first few batches and if there's a demand for it over time and his funds increase he can, at any time after the batch of purchased chips is used up, switch to the 2.4+5ghz version. Basically everything about the Pyra was designed for future proofing, as much as could be anticipated anyway. It's even got that USB3 port that doesn't actually work as a USB3 port, just in case a future SoC does have USB3.

As for the camera, all I can really say is that there are dozens of features not included, a camera being one of them: if ED had attempted to include all of them the cost would have skyrocketed, assuming that Nikolas could have even found a way to fit it all in. A line was drawn as to what would be included and what wouldn't, and camera found itself outside that line, enough people were happy without it that ED didn't feel it was worth the extra cost. You want a camera? You are firmly in the minority, suck it up and move on, don't complain and expect others to pay dozens of dollars for a feature they don't have any interest in.

 

[Eight Bit]

Question for EvilDragon,

How hard do you think it is to hack a camera in there?

 

[pmprog]

The first thing that impressed me is how many times and how many people encouraged me to not buy a pyra. I don't think this is the good way to make scene grow, seriously. Looks like you want to keep the scene restricted to the people that "understands the concept without any explanation".

I almost responded, but I didn't... You're "I'll buy one anyway" sounded so much like "I gotta be part of it, even if I end up disappointed", and my advice would have been not to buy one... At least straight away. Wait until there's a few out in the wild, you can quiz owners on what it runs, what it doesn't, and whether it suits your needs (as you seemed concerned that the device might not do what you want it to do), after that, you'll at least know whether it's capable of doing what you want. The nitpicky (highly personal) stuff - like the keyboard (not just layout, but feel/responsiveness etc.) - I'm afraid you'll probably only find out once you're in possession of one, or maybe you'll know somebody in real life with one that you can test first

 

[PokeParadox]

No. h34r:

 

[moxie]

That's exactly the point. There are very few things that are keeping Pyra away or being the definitive device. I would love to just say "I love my Pyra! It's perfect" rather than "I love my Pyra! but wish it has a small front camera".

Well, the thing is that you have to remember that there is the mirror image too. I'm happy that I won't have to say "I love my Pyra! I just wish it didn't have this useless stupid camera on it".

 

[WizardStan]

The first thing that impressed me is how many times and how many people encouraged me to not buy a pyra. I don't think this is the good way to make scene grow, seriously. Looks like you want to keep the scene restricted to the people that "understands the concept without any explanation". This is specially surprising because I said that I already have a Pandora and I am enjoining it, so the concept is not alien to me and you can't say that I have no idea what I am talking about. Just because I own a pandora and I use it I know perfectly what I am missing on it.

Well yes and no. I don't want someone to spend hundreds of dollars on something they won't be happy with, of course I'm going to recommend not getting it if it won't suit them.When someone comes along and says something like:

Any smartphone in the range of 200 - 300€ has more brute force and better hardware than the Pyra will have. You can do almost anything with a cheap smartphone. They are even able to emulate PS2 or game cube, tasks that I seriously doubt the Pyra will be able to accomplish.

they're mind is obviously focused primarily on the power, all other details are secondary at best: a new phone has the #1 feature they're asking for, so why not get one?Or we've had others that say something along the lines of "A psp can do all this stuff for 1/4 the cost": so get a PSP. It's not our job to tell you what you want, if you want a phone or a PSP or a Shield then you should get one of those, I'm not going to spend my time convincing you otherwise.