Investors...

[DFP]

I'm interested in supporting this, but I have no idea what to do on my end to set this up.

 

[ledow]

So £1000 for a 0.25% investment, paying dividends only on profits, possibly requiring the shareholder to contribute marketing etc. effort too, in a company that's yet to turn any profit (no debt is easy, especially with a huge cash injection first, but profit is hard - and no debt "aside from the initial investment" sounds like you are demanding it back and would be first to be repaid, so that means how many units sold until the company is in any profit at all), has taken thousands already from pre-orderers and (mostly) not yet met their preorder obligations yet, has all its money tied up in stock and manufacturing contracts with foreign companies that have been quite unreliable and where replacements are actively being sought, has shipped 900 units in two years (that's just over one unit a day), is obliged to push out several hundred/thousand more units (not counting RMA's) before taking any more orders, where the shareholders would have virtually no say and several complex tax/exchange/contract issues, where vital parts of the stock are owned by a foreign and quite unaccountable third-party company and yet there's nothing on paper about that, where the main shareholders of the company actually rely on other projects / companies / business income to provide them with a living (and thus have nothing more to lose if everything goes titsup), where there don't seem to be any real "employees" of the company in question (merely those involved in the other ventures of the people involved).


For OP, it sounds reasonable, but for an investor, in the space of one single forum post? It already sounds a bit dodgy. If it was Dragon's Den, I think we'd be hearing "I'm out!" rather quickly. I daresay there's money that could be made if you were brave (and lucky) enough but this sounds a pretty long stretch to get a reasonable deal for all concerned. It sounds like a request for a bankroll of a huge magnitude to me - a whole quarter of the company just gone for cash with virtually zero other benefits by the looks of it.


"Gimme £1000 and I can get you 100th's of a small percentage of some yet-to-be-seen profit made after we've potentially paid off ALL our initial investments, customers and suppliers in a company that's little more than a shell, has multiple unwritten contracts with closely-related companies that hold the top talent we use, but has managed to spend many 100's of times that investment already, at some undefined point in the future... possibly, after tax and currency conversion and legal costs."


Bargain.


(It'll be interesting to see how this post gets censored, by the way).

 

[WizardStan]

You don't have to say any of that. Those of us with the funds available are also generally savvy enough to know how to use it. Craig's not asking for a couple of bucks here and there, he's asking about $1000+ investments which should cut out many casual investors. Those that remain have already considered what you said and decided the risk is worth it. If OPT dies now, there isn't likely to be anything like the Pandora again. This initial project may have had a lot of chaos injected into it, but it is the groundwork for future projects. That $1000 investment may disappear, but that's a risk that you always take when investing. If it keeps OPT floating long enough to become a thriving company able to continue to fill the niche the Pandora fills, then it will be worth it. 3 or 4 years from now, I'll be seeking to upgrade my Pandora, as will many others, and if my $1000 helps that happen, then I will gladly do so.

(It'll be interesting to see how this post gets censored, by the way).

Don't put on the martyr hat. It's very unbecoming, and punctuates your post to make you look like a dick when it inevitably is not censored in any way.

 

[zapman]

I would have another idea as to how collect money; the better thing about it: it's much more simple and without much §§:


I pledge for a "Pandora Godfather" system: a Community member advances money on loan for the production of x Pandoras. Lets say the minimum is one Pandora that costs 200€ to build. As soon as it is produced and payed for by the customer, the person gets his money back. As an act of appreciation by OPT there should be a new tab on openpandora.org that lists all benefactors in a cloud view (the more pandoras you helped pay for, the bigger the members name; name in red font: money has been provided for production, name in green font: unit has been produced and the money returned).


There are a number of reasons why I personally would favour such a model:

1. I do not want to make $$ profit by lending money to OPT but I want to help the Pandora to get more users and spread. The more users there are, the better the software will become. That is the profit I'm up to!
   
2. This approach emphasises the community aspect that the Pandora is based on. People who already have a Pandora help others to be able to get one as well. By others I mean especially people who wouldn't be willing to pay a device before it'll eventually be produced.
   
3. All the legal aspects that should be considered are bothering me; I am not keen on getting a lawyer myself, just to make sure everything is really perfectly organized. With an "investment" of x Pandoras, loosing money would be less painful, so no need for a lawyer in the first place.
   
4. My proposition offers a kind of sponsorship: a company could finance the production of several units in order to get a bigger entry in the "Pandora Godfather" list.
   
5. I, myself, can see the direct impact of my doing: someone else got a Pandora because of me! It is less abstract than beeing a shareholder.
   

The main requirement for this to work out would be that the money is strictly dedicated for the production of Pandoras, nothing else!


Probably, there may be other pros and cons about the Godfather idea.


What do you think about it?


Edit: Oh yes, I forgot to mention that this model may also be compatible with any other form of support that may have been discussed here. So this is not necessary an either.. or thing.

 

[Exophase]

I don't think many people are going to want to advance OP an interest-free loan just to help them out so they can eventually make profit instead.. If you're feeling altruistic there are plenty of other good causes you can extend money towards. People may buy into a theory that it'll create more software but I don't see it happening, if that's your goal the best thing to do is the same thing as always, someone give a talented developer a Pandora. Increasing sales by x% probably isn't going to increase developers by x%, much less software generated. It'll probably be nowhere close.

 

[zapman]

Well, there surely is a correlation between the amount of Pandora owners and the amount of people who develop for the Pandora, you cannot argue with that..


I'm not that convinced that there are so many people who really want to multiply their money by buying OP shares. For most people who come from the community the fostering-the-project motivation seem to be central thing. The Godfather mode would be suitable for those and even people with less money (<1000$) could participate without much bureaucracy.

 

[T.Willey]

I'm late, as usually to this project, but I would be a willing investor.

 

[ShleeDragon]

What bank is offering 6% right now? Nothing in North America, or the UK that I can find. I'm making a stable 8% on the stock market but I really have to work at it, and I take a risk with every trade. If I knew somewhere I could get a guaranteed 6% on my investment I'd take it in a heartbeat!

I'm sorry, I'm from Australia. I'm used to having higher stable returns.

 

[Linopoly]

I also would be interested in investing money into making more Pandora handhelds, but I'm alarmed to see so many people unconditionally offering money to Craig without asking the hard questions. If Craig can collect an investment from people who don't ask questions, what accountability does he have to the skeptics?


My primary concern right now is the significant number of other people who invested their time in the project for free in ways that were essential to its success[1]. What stake in this OP company (Ltd., PLC, etc.) will they get? They all deserve a slice of the pie, and I would not want to invest in anything until I see that they all either have it, or have agreed now that they didn't contribute enough to deserve it. This is as much because I want them to get rewarded for their contributions as because I don't want the project to get torn apart by infighting. Whether one is motivated by profit or goodwill, that is not a desired outcome.


[1] Listed on open-pandora.org are:

• Michael Weston
  
• Craig Rothwell
  
• Michael Mrozek
  
• M. Fatih KILIC
  
• cpasjuste
  
• DJWillis
  
• DaveC
  
• notaz
  
• Skeezix
  
• Squidge
  
• Scott Smith
  
• Vimacs
  

 

[Exophase]

Well, there surely is a correlation between the amount of Pandora owners and the amount of people who develop for the Pandora, you cannot argue with that..

Without hard data you can't actually show that. If being a developer is a totally random variable then you'd expect it, but I don't think that it is. Most developers (especially ones who are much good) buy a device with the intention of developing it, and don't just decide that afterward.

 

[sebt3]

Without hard data you can't actually show that. If being a developer is a totally random variable then you'd expect it, but I don't think that it is. Most developers (especially ones who are much good) buy a device with the intention of developing it, and don't just decide that afterward.

Err, I decided to devel for the pandora afterward.... But the lack of content by the time I got my P helped much for that decision...

 

[Anderzon]

Hold on a sec... just to get this straight. The "Pandora Company" i 100% own by Craig and all the people involved have contributed their time/passion fully for free? Didnt I read somewhere that there where several people who came up with the initial money to get the project/first batch running?

 

[WizardStan]

I'm sorry, I'm from Australia. I'm used to having higher stable returns.

Boo! Foreign currency markets can be more dangerous to traverse than the stock market, else I would probably consider such investment. 6% is quite adequate.

 

[Linopoly]

Hold on a sec... just to get this straight. The "Pandora Company" i 100% own by Craig and all the people involved have contributed their time/passion fully for free? Didnt I read somewhere that there where several people who came up with the initial money to get the project/first batch running?

It's not that simple - right now Craig has a company, and Michael Mrozek has a company, and Craig has started soliciting investments. I can only assume that the intent is for the other contributors to have stakes in the company that Craig is soliciting investments for, but I want to make sure that this is explicitly agreed upon before any investment happens.

Boo! Foreign currency markets can be more dangerous to traverse than the stock market, else I would probably consider such investment. 6% is quite adequate.

I don't think foreign currency exchange itself is that dangerous, per se, it's speculation on it that is so risky. It shouldn't be a reason to avoid a guaranteed 6% investment anymore than it should be a reason to avoid investing in Pandora production (are you not going to have to buy foreign currency for that as well?). Not being an Australian resident is more a likely concern.

 

[craigix]

Of course this is a risk, but we're past the hard part - the Pandora exists.


I'm sure most tech start ups look scary, and indeed you might not make a penny.


But you know the project, you know how determined we are to succeed, often people who invest know


little of the people who are running the company they are investing in. You know we can work


though a crisis and that we are not the types to squander money on expensive cars or women.


My feeling is I'd rather go with fewer people with larger investments so I can have a closer relationship


with them, but at the same time I want to keep things as close to the scene as possible, so there will


have to be a compromise.


I'm still speaking to people and reading up on this, but I'm enjoying the thread and you PMs.

 

[Anderzon]

It's not that simple - right now Craig has a company, and Michael Mrozek has a company, and Craig has started soliciting investments. I can only assume that the intent is for the other contributors to have stakes in the company that Craig is soliciting investments for, but I want to make sure that this is explicitly agreed upon before any investment happens.


Ok. Well if this whole thing becomes reality with new investors a formal investment prospect is necessary where all thinkable questions is beeing settled so potential investors is aware of the "rules". Personally I think this investment might be interesting. Really interesting.

 

[WizardStan]

are you not going to have to buy foreign currency for that as well?

Not if I can help it. Craig mentioned purchasing in USD. Unless the first step will be to take that USD fund and convert it to GBP (which wouldn't make any sense since several of the suppliers needs to be paid in USD) then it shouldn't be affected by currency fluctuations when I go to sell. Currency fluctuations may affect the dividend, but if I buy a share in USD I should be able to sell it in USD unaffected by the current cost of GBP.

 

[craigix]

Not if I can help it. Craig mentioned purchasing in USD. Unless the first step will be to take that USD fund and convert it to GBP (which wouldn't make any sense since several of the suppliers needs to be paid in USD) then it shouldn't be affected by currency fluctuations when I go to sell. Currency fluctuations may affect the dividend, but if I buy a share in USD I should be able to sell it in USD unaffected by the current cost of GBP.

We have Euro, GBP and Dollar accounts.

 

[WizardStan]

We have Euro, GBP and Dollar accounts.

That's as I was hoping. You buy stuff in USD as well, makes sense to me that you'd have a floating account that occasionally might need to be restuffed. I'm assuming that if Americans were to invest, that money would go into the USD account to fund these USD purchases?

 

[craigix]

That's as I was hoping. You buy stuff in USD as well, makes sense to me that you'd have a floating account that occasionally might need to be restuffed. I'm assuming that if Americans were to invest, that money would go into the USD account to fund these USD purchases?

Most probably yes. It would also depend on the amount invested I should think.