Installation System / Game Marketplace?

[juniorm33]

Wow, what a lot of apathy towards a simple suggestion of a cool idea. I thought communities like this were supposed to nurture progressive ideas, not maintain the status quo.

It's only a suggestion, and in my opinion a very good one. It should be possible to talk about how it theoretically might be done / what it would look like / how it would work. It's not intended to spoil anyone else's experience.

Anyone here who doesn't like the sound of the idea can go and read another thread, it's no problem. I can't understand why they would instead prefer to stick around and try to derail the idea because they don't like it.

Anyone who does like the idea can discuss it, and who knows, maybe some people with the skills and the inclination can make it happen. If they do, no-one will be forced to use it, but a lot of people will probably really appreciate it.

®

First post although been following for over a year now.
Anyway, I don't believe there's apathy or hostility to another way getting software.
I think he's simply asking what are the benefits as you see it, which is a reasonable question.
Especially when the reason given was that its to hard to use the current/proposed systems (web based ones).
Personally I'll hopefully be using the package manager that was in development. If that does get used by the community it gives the devs/users the facility to write a local app if that's what you require/like.

 

[WizardStan]

It's only a suggestion, and in my opinion a very good one. It should be possible to talk about how it theoretically might be done / what it would look like / how it would work. It's not intended to spoil anyone else's experience.

The path to hell is paved with good intentions. In trying to make things better, you can make things worse without realizing it, and the first step to doing something wrong is to not address *why* you're doing it.
Alternatively, rather than build a new app, why not try to address things that are wrong with the existing web based repository? Fix the existing system rather than start from scratch?
It's especially frustrating because a lot of the arguments talk about making it "easier" for the user to install stuff, but I still can't see how a stand alone app can definitively be made easier than a web download.

 

[Jourdy288]

I understand what you mean Stan, but let's look at it from a different perspective.

That perspective.
I still think that the iPhone/XBL style app store is worth it. I get what you mean about fixing up what we already have, I say we redo the whole archive so that it's easier on the eyes. Honestly, once that guy up there sees more than twelve characters, he's bound to freak out. What happens when he sees the archive!? I still think the app store is the way to go.

 

[Jourdy288]

I understand what you mean Stan, but let's look at it from a different perspective.

That perspective.
I still think that the iPhone/XBL style app store is worth it. I get what you mean about fixing up what we already have, I say we redo the whole archive so that it's easier on the eyes. Honestly, once that guy up there sees more than twelve characters, he's bound to freak out. What happens when he sees the archive!? I still think the app store is the way to go. Besides, what if you're on the road? You have your little Sprint connect card, and wouldn't it just be great to connect log into the archive and have a nicer interface that you can pull files down from? I'm just saying...

 

[Shirohagen]

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”

Henry Ford

 

[Aninhumer]

It doesn't help that people all seem to be talking about different things.

The way I've understood it, the way PNDs are designed there is essentially no "installation" as such. A PND file anywhere on the Pandora is "installed".

In order to get the files, the user browses the archive and downloads and saves the files.
The archive *could* be improved in terms of usability perhaps (it's often difficult to tell which emu is the best for example), but it is pretty easy to use.

One thing that could be done to streamline the process further, is to set firefox to "open" PND files with a simple script that automatically saves them to an available SD, and pops up a dialog saying "installed" (possibly giving options to change where it is installed).
I think if this was done (and maybe a link to the archive in the menu) there would be absolutely no difference between the Pandora install process and any kind of appstore thing.


Another thing people are talking about is automatic updates, this is a feature I'd definitely like to see.
While it may be nice, this doesn't need to be a complete installer program (like synaptic), it could just be a simple update manager (like the update manager in Ubuntu). It doesn't even need to keep track of what's installed, as it can just scan the files like the menu does (which I feel would be a lot more in keeping with the idea of the PND files).


An important thing people are forgetting as well, is that some people don't have WiFi, and so making network access necessary to install apps would mean they were unable to.

 

[WizardStan]

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”

Henry Ford

Not the point. Ford asked "what's wrong with horses?" and then built a car which addressed those problems. I'm asking "what's wrong with the current archive that warrants building a new system" and not getting much back. The responses seem to be that it doesn't look nice (which is an objective opinion, I think it looks clean and simple, and easily fixable even if it weren't) or that it isn't "easy". The latter just makes me ask the followup question "how will a stand alone app make it easier?" This question has yet to be answered. I am not opposed to the idea specifically, especially if someone wants to make it for themselves or as a secondary thing for others to use if they so choose. Nor am I opposed to changing the standard.
I'm opposed to the idea of people building something without fully understanding why they're building it, simultaneously proposing it as some kind of standard.

 

[Shirohagen]

No, Ford asked what could be better about a situation which had been accepted as equilibrium, and when everyone was expecting it to be something to do with horses, he decided it could be anything he wanted and came up with something which had nothing to do with horses at all. What that quote means is that he didn't wait to be told there was a problem, he just went and did something better.

He didn't so much solve a problem, as invented a new solution.

You can still ride a horse if you like.

I'm talking about having some imagination.

Nevermind.

®

 

[WizardStan]

He didn't so much solve a problem, as invented a new solution.

The point of my post pointing out you missed the point was that Ford at least looked at the situation, saw room for improvement, and made a device with those improvements. If it would have been feasible to make faster and stronger horses, could that have been the better solution? Locomotion that runs on grain instead of oil, and produces fertilizer instead of poisonous gasses?
To drag a bad analogy out a littler more, I'm asking these questions to figure out if the proposed solution is really an improvement, or if we can just make the current horse faster and stronger.

 

[dflemstr]

Can we just stop talking about automobiles, please?

Also, alternatives are never bad, and if someone is willing to create an alternative to something (e.g. me), then let them do it.

 

[Jourdy288]

I think to do that would be animal cruelty. What happens when everybody wants a ride? But since you seek a reason for a standalone appstore, I'll give one to you: It's convenient. It's faster than going to the file archive. And it's pretty darn cool.


Oh, and Apple has one but that's not really a legitimate point?
Oh wait, it is. Remember those Atari systems? Guess what? When ColecoVision and IntelliVision came out, they made it possible to use Atari carts in their machines. Quite a thrashing. Thus, people didn't need to buy stuff from Atari.
It's the same principle at work here, why not take what they have and just run with it, eh? It's not the kind of thing they can sue you over, because in all honesty, an impressive app store with mostly free application, as opposed to Apple with mostly paid applications.... And we can beat them in their variety, their value, and their support.
I call for a GNU dawn!

 

[WizardStan]

Also, alternatives are never bad, and if someone is willing to create an alternative to something (e.g. me), then let them do it.

Indeed, alternatives are not bad. But this is being proposed as a default replacement, which could be bad.

 

[Shirohagen]

Well some people will want to work with what exists and other people are excited by trying something new.

This thread is about trying something new.

®

 

[WizardStan]

I think to do that would be animal cruelty. What happens when everybody wants a ride? But since you seek a reason for a standalone appstore, I'll give one to you: It's convenient. It's faster than going to the file archive. And it's pretty darn cool.

How is it more convenient than the web archive? How is it faster than the web archive? How is it more cool than the web archive?

 

[dflemstr]

I think to do that would be animal cruelty. What happens when everybody wants a ride? But since you seek a reason for a standalone appstore, I'll give one to you: It's convenient. It's faster than going to the file archive. And it's pretty darn cool.

How is it more convenient than the web archive? How is it faster than the web archive? How is it more cool than the web archive?

I think I can answer that:

1. Opening a 50 MiB web browser and navigating to a page will always be significantly slower than just starting a local program.
2. A local "app store" can be made to look much better and be much more easy to navigate than any web page, because you don't have the limits of HTML to fight against. Trust me, I know because I've had to pick that fight.
3. A local app installer just brings a feeling of solidity and integration to the platform. Imagine, for instance, having some random file on an SD card, for which you don't have a program to open it with, and when you click on that file, a dialog appears saying "you'd need blablabla to open that file, should we download it for you?".

 

[HackModford]

What is so wrong with this idea?

The whole point of the pnd system is awesome. You just drag and drop and it works right off the bat!

Now why not have a beautiful GUI that displays screenshots, reviews, ratings, ?prices?, nice friendly donate here, etc.

Have you guys looked at the wii scene? There's an app called the Homebrew browser. Yes everyone that uses homebrew on the wii knows how to install everything themselves but when you have an app you can fire up directly from the wii. Get a nice graphical representation of what you're getting and just simply point and click and know it's going to be on your system is awesome!

Think of the Add/Remove software in ubuntu. It's just nice to have. Or even Mint Install on Linux Mint. It's just there for convenience sake. Yes we could surf the web or go to a website that list everything but if you can skip the need for a web-browser people think "professional"

The app-store is successful for a reason. Simplicity.

Why not do it?

 

[Jourdy288]

YES!

 

[sold]

The Wii homebrew browser totally kicks ass. Something like that for Pandora would be awesome, given that the Wii dev scene is alot smaller that the Pandoras in comparison. That, and there seems to be a gap between homebrew apps and games that support sdhc cards for the Wii and those that don't unfortunately. Wii homebrew is pretty easy to install and use, but having an app that can do it all for you is nice.

Something similar would make the Pandora alot more user-friendly to non linux users, broadening the market for the device, which is a definite plus imho.

 

[WizardStan]

What is so wrong with this idea?

If done incorrectly, it can end up being worse than the existing solution. Most notably, people are saying that it will be "easier" for new users, and I ask again, how is clicking icons in a standalone application easier than clicking the exact same icons in a web browser? A browser should be familiar territory, any new app store, no matter how intuitive, will still be new.
Finally, it is system limited. Unless it's compiled to Windows, x86 Linux, and Mac, you're going to have a different interface on the Pandora and on your PC: that is not in the interest of making things easier for the end user. One common interface, intuitive, regardless of what system they're using, is easy.

The whole point of the pnd system is awesome. You just drag and drop and it works right off the bat!

Now why not have a beautiful GUI that displays screenshots, reviews, ratings, ?prices?, nice friendly donate here, etc.

These things can be done with the existing archive. A stand alone app adds nothing to these.

Since this is going nowhere, I'll try a different tactic:
There ARE benefits to a stand alone app store, but looking nice and being easier are not two of them. Stop focusing on the things that can be done with or simply improved on the existing web archive and work on the features that are only possible outside of HTML.

 

[lulzfish]

• Opening a 50 MiB web browser and navigating to a page will always be significantly slower than just starting a local program.
• A local "app store" can be made to look much better and be much more easy to navigate than any web page, because you don't have the limits of HTML to fight against. Trust me, I know because I've had to pick that fight.

But I thought Google mandated that Javascript, HTML, and web browsers were the basis of all truth?
Now that I remember that web browsers suck, this marketplace is sounding like a good idea.
Just don't call it an "app store". "app" is a silly word.