In A Real Quandry....

[7zark7]

This post is not intended to start a flame war or provoke anything other than a bit of dicussion... I find myself unable to make a choice about re-ordering and would appreciate the thoughts of the community. I think that if I am sitting here thinking like this then others will be too.

I did not get an email and have been assuming that my order has been okay from day one , I ordered within the first few hours. Yesterday I found a refund posted back to my account.

I have contacted Gbax and they have send me a copy of the re-order email.

Now sitting with the money in my account, and with the changes over the past few weeks I find the decision to reorder or pull out pretty hard.

In favour of re-ordering.

1. The potential of a really cool device , which I intend to develop for and would get a lot of use out of.
2. The reputation of GBAX so far is beyond repute, very trustworthy and reliable.

Against re-ordering.

1. Timescales are slipping again and this was supposed to be a birthday present (1st dec) and Xmas present from my wife ...
2. Real concerns that if too many people pull out then the economics of the situation might force the closure of the whole project.
3. The badly reworded re-order email which was trying to state that adding more memory was the cause of the re-order, which we know is now not the case.
4. The patchy communication , on a need to know basis (which has much improved now Chip has got involved).
5. The usual risks with a first batch, faults etc.
6. Sending a bank transfer (the preferred method means 0 protection).

As I said, this is NOT an attempt to troll, but really just an airing of my current state of mind, I guess I need a bit of convincing and would appreciate any thoughts from both camps ....

7zark7

 

[coolbeans]

I felt exactly the same way. I eventually decided the negatives outweighed the positives at this time and kept the refund.

Assuming everything works out, I'll be ordering from the second batch.

 

[TaG]

One other reason for UK customers to re-order as opposed to waiting for the second batch is cost.

Craigix said the second batch cost was $339, this is approx £221. Add VAT at 15% becomes £254, compared to £200.

edit: Just seen this in another thread and thought it might be worth adding as another reason to re-order - just to guilt trip-people.

Does this mean your money will be lost when the Pandora doesn't work out? Nope, as we all gave some stuff to insure (i.e. houses, etc.)
It wouldn't make sense to sell the house to finance the Pandora, then buy it back. Instead, the house is an insurance - when the Pandora doesn't work out, you get your money back and we're all broke and lose everything we have

Well i dont know about anyone else but i'd rather lose £200 than see you guys lose everything. That would be terrible. It just makes seeing all the irrational panicers hollering for refunds seem even more unreasonable. Its just a case of staying in it to eventually get what we want or make a load of very good people very homeless.

And to add my potential reason not to re-order: wife not happy with re-ordering, and she's got the refund money...

 

[neogramps]

QUOTE
Craigix said the second batch cost was $339, this is approx £221. Add VAT at 15% becomes £254, compared to £200.


I don't believe Craig would state the price w/o VAT - they didn't do that for the first batch - or else it would have cost £235

@OP - There have been quite a few of these topics recently - it boils down to the fact that if you pre-ordered expecting everything to come on time and run smoothly, you were being incredibly naive. There were always going to be delays, just have faith and hold on.

I don't get the people who will cancel now cos they can't wait, but then say they'll wait till the second batch and wait much much longer. Just have patience now, chill out, and you will get your Pandora when it's done.

 

[Vorporeal]

There's no VAT in the states - the price for us for the first batch was $330. The reason why it's so much higher for you guys now is that the economic crisis has brought the dollar much closer to the pound - the dollar hasn't been this strong against the pound since August of 2001.

In short: his math is right. It could be 25% more expensive for second-batchers.

 

[MiniSinisterMinister]

2. Real concerns that if too many people pull out then the economics of the situation might force the closure of the whole project.

I don't understand this argument. A limited company is only liable with the capital belonging to the company. So your are dealing with a limited company that has little to lose. If many people express a wish to pull out their money and the company simply doesn't give them their money back, there will be nothing they can do about it in the short term. The capital would remain in the company for some time and they would be able finish the Pandoras anyway. This would also make much more sense Imo because the capital we invested would be much more valueable if it is turned into finished Pandoras and would be completely lost if they just stopped the project. So from my point of view stopping the project now seems the least sensible option in any circumstances.

5. The usual risks with a first batch, faults etc.

You knew that from the beginning and you also knew that the released date was just an estimate. If you keep your money now I don't think that it will do much harm because they accepted much more orders than they can procure parts for anyway.

 

[Vorporeal]

As ED has said, there is no way the project will collapse before the first batch is out. They've all got too much invested in the project, and if it goes under, they'll all be in SERIOUS financial trouble. There's too much at stake for them to give up.

 

[TaG]

2. Real concerns that if too many people pull out then the economics of the situation might force the closure of the whole project.

I don't understand this argument. ... So from my point of view stopping the project now seems the least sensible option in any circumstances.

I understood this as meaning if too many people pulled out openpandora would not have the funds to legally carry on trading. If refunds are demanded through the credit card company openpandora cannot just choose not to return the money.

I suspect it would take an awful lot of people not to re-order to cause problems though.

 

[likwidoxigen]

Feel free not to re-order, I could use another

But in all seriousness even if it doesn't get to me till Feb I won't care. It's going to be one of the sweetest devices i've ever owned regardless of if I get it now or in 4 months.


@Tag: Lol, right now i've got enough to fill 12-17 more orders, I'LL SAVE THIS DANG SHIP BY MY SELF IF I HAVE TO!!!! Or I could just become a distributor, but really, 3 jobs, My Last semester of school, and 1 business already takes up so much of my damn time.

 

[MiniSinisterMinister]

ED stated that there are 700 customers from Germany and neighbouring countries. 700x250 = 175.000 euros. I think you can make a few Pandoras with this money ED's shop is not at all affected by the re-order problems. And I think there are also other customers form other regions which are also not affected. What is more if people decide to keep their money, you do not have to make a Pandora for them and hence you do not pay for the parts.

 

[Arakasi]

This post is not just directed at the OP but anyone thinking of not re-ordering.

I don't want to advocate anyone 'pulling out' of the project, but if you have to, for any reason (family/financial/whatever), then you should.
If you can afford to re-order and are prepared to wait, then definitely do that.

Don't worry about the project going under if you pull out. From the information that has been given to us, I don't think everything is going to collapse because one person too many didn't re-order.
Also, remember that there won't be a whole lot of software available for a while so if you are one of the people in the impatient group now, just wait till you have a working Pandora in your hands and are able to do little with it. These people should definitely find something else to occupy themselves in the mean time and wait for the second+ batches.

As for myself I haven't received re-order email or refund (yet), but am dedicated to see this through no matter how many delays/issues crop up. I consider myself a very patient person, but (as someone on this board said) maybe I am too naive. Maybe I just haven't been burned either badly enough or burned enough times to feel any kind of anxiety about handing out my trust (and money) here. I am not only trusting the core team, but also the community members who have been around since before the Pandora was even an idea, who can attest to the core team's trustworthiness.

As a side note, I also plan to develop for the Pandora eventually.

 

[solidstate]

I'll be re-ordering as soon as the Credit Card option appears.
That way my money is safe whatever happens. I wouldn't do a bank transfer - even banks recommend against using this facility due to the lack of protection.

As soon as I've put the order in, I'm going to try to forget about the Pandora until it turns up. I won't be checking in here every day looking for updates. The only reason I'm here now is to see if I can pay by credit card yet.

Since I'll be primarily using it for retrogaming - whether I get it in Dec or Feb doesn't make too much difference to the overall experience for me- its actually nice to have something to look forward to in the grim dark months of the new year.

One thing that does grate slightly is the blind faith shown by some forum posters in the project. I really hope it works out, but there are many things out of the control of the Pandora team that could potentially scupper the whole endeavor. Many excellent ideas in the past have fallen at the first hurdle despite limitless good will, hard work and belief.

I am supporting the project with my cash and wish everyone well and hope they reap the rewards of all the hard work put in so far. But for those people who make forum posts that attempt to shoot down and shut up anyone who exhibits any hint of worry for their money or expresses concern about the status of the project -they need to understand that Pandora is no more or no less deserving of this concern than any other company and people must be given the freedom to ask their questions and expect decent and informed responses from rational individuals.

This should be a helpful friendly sharing forum for like-minded individuals. I'm sure we all want to see Pandora do well and have a long and prosperous existance and these forums will be a large part of growing and maintaining the Pandora community. When it comes to the second batch, it would be a shame if potential purchasers were put off after looking at these forums and seeing nothing more than a bunch of argumentative posturing.

So good luck to the Pandora team - and please remember to organise the credit card re-order option and email your preorder list when it's ready.

 

[oblivioner]

I'm yet to recieve the refund, but in any case I think I will re-order, there's nothing like Pandora in the market, so there aren't many option left, however I'm more and more annoyed by the delay and that still there`s no clear release date or anything close to it.

In any case, re-ordering doesn't mean you can't ask for the refund anytime, I suppose. If say March comes, Pandora is still unreleased and something else shows, I will ask for a refund of my pre-order and go for the new device, period.

One thing I'm glad is that I didn't purchase any SD cards. I'm sorry for those that bought them expecting for an October / November release and I'm quite sure those same cards will be way cheaper when Pandora is finally released.

 

[Arakasi]

...it would be a shame if potential purchasers were put off after looking at these forums and seeing nothing more than a bunch of argumentative posturing.

I agree wholeheartedly, but I'm slightly more concerned about potential developers coming to this conclusion and walking away from Pandora.
We could miss out on some awesome software.

 

[tds48]

Its a no brainer ... nothing has changed.

If you (or any of us) were naive to believe it would be plain sailing, then yes you (or we) need to reset (our) your expectations.

If you are unable to reset your expectations to living update to update (like a rollercoaster) then this game is not for you. If you are unable to afford the money or need it more in the immediate future then bow out and go for the second batch.

For the records and to try and save some posts down the line. There will no doubt be issues with software / os etc in the beginning ... you have to accept that now!! Its all part of being on the first ride. It's like a rollercoaster plenty of thrilling ups but you must accept the few downward slopes

If you need to remember why you ordered in the first place, watch some of the videos again ... IT IS GOING TO BE A THING OF BEAUTY !!

It's not a case of will it happen, but more when it will happen ... andora1:

 

[jdh2550]

Looking at each of your concerns:

1. Timescales are slipping again and this was supposed to be a birthday present (1st dec) and Xmas present from my wife ...

If timescale is a big deal to you then likely keep the refund and come back when you can order one from stock. I wouldn't be surprised if the first batch is delivered February or March - not December or January. I wouldn't be all that terribly surprised if it's even May or June. Stuff happens. Personally I think mid February is where I'd place my bet - but that's just a guess. I remember asking in one of my first posts how they were going to manage to deliver in the spring (of '08 not '09!)

QUOTE

2. Real concerns that if too many people pull out then the economics of the situation might force the closure of the whole project.


I don't think you have to worry about this very much at all. The production train has left the station - it's going to arrive at the destination - the question is when. Maybe there's 1 in a 1000 chance the train will get derailed - but it doesn't seem likely at this point.

QUOTE

3. The badly reworded re-order email which was trying to state that adding more memory was the cause of the re-order, which we know is now not the case.
4. The patchy communication , on a need to know basis (which has much improved now Chip has got involved).


I understand how these increase the angst - but I don't think they really affect anything. So, take a deep breath and just ignore these. (I don't think they're warning signs of worse things - because we have enough evidence of real progress).

QUOTE

5. The usual risks with a first batch, faults etc.


I presume hardware faults if they exist will be covered by warranty. Personally I wouldn't be surprised to see different revisions of the board with who knows what changed - but probably not in the second batch. Software issues aren't a big deal - they can all be fixed in the field. If you want to be an early adopter these are the risks you take - again, the risk of a "bad" fault that's not covered by warranty is likely pretty small.

QUOTE

6. Sending a bank transfer (the preferred method means 0 protection).


Yeah, I've noticed this desire by the team for bank transfer - and given the credit card fiasco one can certainly understand the sentiment. Personally, I strongly recommend you re-purchase via credit card for the protection. I think it was a mistake for the team to request bank transfers without pointing out that the upside is all their's and the downside is all yours (a well intentioned request no doubt but still a mistake)

So, if I end up with a refund I'll be re-ordering by credit card.

I think the only decision point about re-ordering one needs to consider is the delay. Is there something else you want to do with those funds in the meantime?

If you do re-order consider the pros and cons of bank transfer and credit card payment (credit card payment is likely better for you but could be worse for the team)

 

[smanky]

As far as I'm concerned, you (this is the grand "you", not just the person who started this thread) agreed to purchase the Pandora when you paid for it the first time. You knew that the delivery date may or may not make the November estimate, and obviously it's not. You knew that there are chances you're taking with the first batch over subsequent ones. You knew that when you agreed to purchase it, and you still paid for it.

They extended the ordering period and were able to order as many as we ordered within the first week. They did this for us, so we could all get our hands on the first run. The mishap that's allowing you to get a refund is irrelevant to the fact that you still agreed to purchase it. The only reason you *shouldn't* send in the money again is if it's going to cost you more this time due to exchange rates, VAT's or anything else. Then you have a legitimate reason to reconsider.

However... if anybody is dead set on not re-buying after getting the refund, I think it would at least be fair to let them know so that they can sell your unit to somebody else.

I haven't gotten a refund yet, but when I do, I will be paying for it again.

 

[som99]

I think its sad that people don´t reorder, craigix and the theam need all support and money they can get to get this to work, no money means no product so I woulden´t even consider not to reorder.

//som99

 

[fluffyllama]

I have received a refund but have got no email. I'll only be re-ordering when I can do it via my creditcard again.

 

[socket]

I got the email, and will definitely reorder. Bank transfer or otherwise... As soon as I get my refund that is...

I don't get why these minor issues are seemingly so major to some... A few months delay? the reorder "issue" which isn't really an issue....?