Help Needed Replicating Success Of Openpandora For A Netbook/laptop

[lkcl]

I'd like to canvas peoples' opinions, and solicit help on the idea of replicating the startling success of the Open Pandora to do a Free Software Netbook / Laptop. People that I talk to about how the Open Pandora came into being are surprised and impressed, that a specialist product could be made for a small dedicated group, bypassing all of the "normal" channels to give people what they really want, and couldn't otherwise get.

It's my belief that there is a similar group of people who would equally like to part with money to get a reasonably low-cost ARM netbook. Not one with a 7in 800x480 LCD such as the Skytone Alpha 400 ($USD 150) and not an OpenPandora; something more like an EEEPC; or perhaps the fabled Lenovo Skylight but without the expected $500 price-tag - it's hard and it's counter-productive to second-guess what people *might* want. I've been looking for years for alternatives to Intel Laptops and Netbooks, and they just don't exist. Perhaps in one years' time they *might* exist, but I'm fed up with waiting for retailers to get over their problems of "non-Windows"; hence the idea of bypassing them entirely, just like the OpenPandora, and connecting directly with people, to ask them "what do _you_ want?"

That's what the OpenPandora project did extremely well: found the people who wanted "something" and then actually made it for them.

So - in particular, I wanted to ask the OpenPandora developers some questions:

a) I realise you're busy right now, with the machines coming in, but have you thought about what you'd like to do next, if anything?

B) With the infrastructure and the level of trust that you've established with people, whose money you've held in trust for two years to get these machines made, are you going to let that infrastructure go, once the 4,000 machines are made, or would you be willing to maintain that infrastructure and use it for a second project - a low-cost ARM netbook (assuming that a critical mass of people can be reached)?

I welcome any input - and thank you for letting me ask these questions here on the OpenPandora forums - because I believe that there are people out there who would like a decent low-cost, low-power ARM-based netbook, and are willing to pay for it, if only someone would make it.

 

[mali]

The problem with those ARM netbooks is, they already exist but are held back. I spotted a nice device early 2009 from Pegatron.
Regarding a second project of the OP team, if I had to give an advice, I'd suggest focussing completely on gaming handhelds in the next few years. Staying in that niche and learning how to do it right is the only sensible way to stay alive as a micro company, imo.

 

[Prometheus]

I certainly don't wish to be negative, because I'd rather like an ARM netbook myself!

That said, from my perspective, there is a difference between the Pandora and netbooks: There isn't really another handheld machine out there like the Pandora at the moment, whereas, ARM or not, there *are* netbooks (with ARM ones supposedly on the horizon).

As for what a person like me would want, if you're interested: Good battery life with the *included* battery, without needing to pay a fortune for an aftermarket one (this is where all of the x86 netbooks that I've encountered fall down, in my experience), decent keyboard (aside from the Acer Aspire One and the HP Mini-Note 2133, I've found most netbook keyboards to be abysmal, personally), and a nice screen that isn't harsh on the eyes. I'm afraid I can't really give better thoughts than that - software-wise, I would just want something that works well and stays out of my way.

EDIT: Ninja'd by mali. h34r:

 

[mali]

@lkcl
Are you this guy?
http://armdevices.net/2010/03/20/chitech-ct-pc89e-8-9-arm11-powered-laptop-runs-debian-linux/
I was just browsing armdevices and saw the same name mentioned.

edit:
*Sigh* The aforementioned netbook
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy-AMbzL7X0

 

[kaprikawn]

Those are some pretty lofty goals for someone with 4 posts who joined a matter of months ago. To be perfectly honest it's hard to take your post seriously without a few credentials.

I couldn't quite figure out, are you planning to do this yourself or are you asking the OP team to do it?

I don't mean to be negetive, I'm personally waiting for an ARM netbook and would love what you're proposing. But I would have to question your ability to make one or the OP team's willingness to do the same. For every Pandora there's a multitude of Open Mokos and the like. Sorry, but this thread seems a bit too pie-in-the-sky to me.

 

[Asiyura]

The problem with those ARM netbooks is, they already exist but are held back. I spotted a nice device early 2009 from Pegatron.
Regarding a second project of the OP team, if I had to give an advice, I'd suggest focussing completely on gaming handhelds in the next few years. Staying in that niche and learning how to do it right is the only sensible way to stay alive as a micro company, imo.

You're right, after a _big_ break post pandora, if they still want to make another device, they should stick to handheld console.

That said, I would love a pandora home console more than a "pandora netbook".
That console would require some large tweaks in the hardware, like a hard drive controller, an ethernet card and a VGA or HDMI tv out.
A faster CPU and GPU would make the device even better, given the resolution of the screen could be 1080p and to have good looking games that would require more power than on the small pandora screen.
Any HID compliant joypad/joystick could be used to play, the pandora could be used as joypad and wireless touchpad & keyboard.

Edit : Okay, that's a dream, I got a little too carried away from the topic

 

[lkcl]

The problem with those ARM netbooks is, they already exist but are held back. I spotted a nice device early 2009 from Pegatron.

preecciselyy, they're "held back". as in, because they don't run windows, and because the prices aren't compelling enough to take a risk, no retailer will buy them. when the price comes down to say $80 (the likely cost of the Skytone 400) such that they can be sold for $130 and make a profit, _then_ there's suddenly a demand: that kind of price is compelling, and there are about 30 retailers world-wide who simply went, "ok, it's a toy. buy it."

but - by the time you get to $100, retailers suddenly get cold feet at the "fact" that it's not "windows" compatible. they don't know what to do - so they do nothing.

and _that's_ why i want to make some noise, find out if there are world-wide greater than 500 people willing to put money up-front to get something actually made - or even something as simple as to pay pegatron, lenovo or whoever has an ARM netbook design to actually make the damn things.

i really have been looking for years, and very very hard in the past few months: the only machine i've found is a GPL violator and it's an 8.9in design, 1024x600 LCD, with a samsung S3C6410 667mhz: not _quite_ fast enough, but the price is very compelling ($102) - in volumes of 20,000.

so i know it can be done, and i want to find out who wants one, and then get them made.

 

[mali]

^ I feel your pain Good luck

 

[zhasha]

There is a world of people out there who don't really care if it can run Windows, but rather whether it can run GNU/linux. Appeal to those guys with some hardware that's not just a rehashing of last years netbook but smaller and otherwise almost equal specs.

 

[lkcl]

That console would require some large tweaks in the hardware, like a hard drive controller, an ethernet card and a VGA or HDMI tv out.
A faster CPU and GPU would make the device even better, given the resolution of the screen could be 1080p and to have good looking games that would require more power than on the small pandora screen.

Edit : Okay, that's a dream, I got a little too carried away from the topic

that's fine, and it's good!

ok. in the 2 years since the openpandora, they've been extremely lucky: the TI OMAP3530 ARM Cortex A8 is good, stayed good, and pretty much got _zero_ competition. not a squeak. the only thing that comes close, and is actually available, is the Samsung S5PC100 ARM Cortex A8, which is 833mhz, and is available for $14.50 in 1k volumes. that's almost a _third_ of the price of the OMAP3530 600mhz! and that pricing is thanks to the fact that the S5PC100 is in the iPhone 3G, and thus is mass-manufactured. you now also have the S5PC110 and the S5PV210.

the ethernet chip is trivial: the best low-cost simple one is the DM9000, and i know that ben dooks, the s3c64xx linux expert who works for simtec knocked up a 2 layer board with the DM9000 just as a hobby experiment.

HDMI out is trivial: these specialist devices like the OMAP3530 and the S5PC100 already _have_ direct HDMI out.

VGA out requires a $2.50 converter chip, and those 75ohm lines take quite a bit of power! (which is why they are left off the OMAP35xx and the S5PxNNN and other chips: they even go to the extreme of leaving out USB 1.1 because that saves power and silicon, too).

a hard drive controller is a little trickier: i honestly don't know about that one (but i know someone who does) - and i also know that there are specialist Marvell Armada ARM CPUs which have SATA controllers built-in. but - really, is an SATA or an IDE controller _that_ necessary, when you can get 480mb/sec over USB 2.0? would you pay the extra $12 (guessing) for an SATA controller, or would you put up with the USB 2 interface? you tell me - i'm genuinely asking, because if enough people reallyreallyreally want SATA controllers, enough to put their money up-front, then who am i to say "no, you can't have it" ! that would be stoopid

and that's why i love the idea behind the openpandora project: it really _is_ about saying to people "whaddyawant?" and then going "okaay, letsdoit" rather than going "that's crazy! nobody would pay for that!"

i dread to think what kind of monster people want. i have nightmares about people being willing to pay for a device with a 17in LCD, a 50Ah battery lasting well over a week, 2gb of DDR3 RAM and only a 300mhz ARM CPU....

 

[lkcl]

Those are some pretty lofty goals for someone with 4 posts who joined a matter of months ago. To be perfectly honest it's hard to take your post seriously without a few credentials.

I couldn't quite figure out, are you planning to do this yourself or are you asking the OP team to do it?

I don't mean to be negetive, I'm personally waiting for an ARM netbook and would love what you're proposing. But I would have to question your ability to make one or the OP team's willingness to do the same. For every Pandora there's a multitude of Open Mokos and the like. Sorry, but this thread seems a bit too pie-in-the-sky to me.

i've been thinking about this, doing my research and collecting experts for quite some time, and i've kept quiet about it until i have enough information to know what i'm talking about, that's all. for example, there's no point in me coming to people and going "let's do a low-cost ARM netbook!" if i don't know the prices of components, is there?

look me up (google my name or initials) you'll find out that i'm perfectly capable of handling complex issues. also it probably helps you to shed some of your skepticism if you read these: http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/

i am _well_ aware of the openmoko, and the fact that they took on too much all at once, which is why i am not proposing a mobile phone project (i'm well aware that the openmoko completely ignored advice from experienced RF engineers... auchh) i know of at least three independent hardware engineers, each of which has a different but relevant type of expertise. and i'm contacting and collecting lots of other people who think this is a great idea, as well.

i'm fully aware that this isn't something that "i" can do, and i am not in the least bit picky about how it gets done, or who does it, nor am i daft enough to second-guess what people want. the key lesson from the openpandora is very very simple: ask then deliver. oh - and tell people what you're doing, because that's actually fascinating as well.

it also helps that i've bought a sample of a (gpl violating) ARM netbook - actually there are 20 of us - and i've reviewed the design: it is truly dog-simple, for a competent hardware engineer to replicate... which we _may_ not need to do, because we're talking to the original designers of it, next week, to see if they're interested in participating / helping (and not being GPL violators, like the factory that bought the reference design from them...)

if they _also_ want to be GPL violators, or if they don't want to participate, that's fine: we just go replicate / adapt the design to suit what it is that people say that they want. ben dooks instantly spotted an error in the DM9000 circuit on this sample, so we have access to some extremely competent expertise just by being open about the process... exactly like the openpandora!

so - yeah, lots of information on _other_ forums and in private discussions with lots of different people that are missing as background info, that make me look like "u nooeb" when that's actually faar from the case.

 

[lkcl]

There is a world of people out there who don't really care if it can run Windows, but rather whether it can run GNU/linux. Appeal to those guys with some hardware that's not just a rehashing of last years netbook but smaller and otherwise almost equal specs.

*thumbs-up*. preeecisely! now try telling that to john lewis. again: the success of the openpandora is because it was what some intelligent but non-mass-market group of people _really_ wanted. and... oh, i have to get permission from rms before i can tell you the rest. lots going on.

 

[lkcl]

@lkcl
Are you this guy?
http://armdevices.net/2010/03/20/chitech-ct-pc89e-8-9-arm11-powered-laptop-runs-debian-linux/
I was just browsing armdevices and saw the same name mentioned.

edit:
*Sigh* The aforementioned netbook
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy-AMbzL7X0

yyyep, that's me. and that's the GPL-violating Chitech, with the otherwise absolutely brilliant CT-PC89E. it was the GPL violation which was the final straw, for me, and i decided to ask around to see if anyone else thought that doing an "openpandora-esque project to get an ARM netbook made that people actually want" was a good idea, and the reaction's been pretty good, so... yup.

but, yeah, there are people i've shown that to, told about the price, and they go "pity it's such a small screen, i can't read it" and that's why the initial phase _has_ to be "what do people really really really want" - it's no good guessing. _ask_!

yeah, those ... i don't know what they were thinking, chitech. they refused to provide the linux source code, the u-boot source code and the MOS source code, thus instantly making themselves GPL violators of some three _hundred_ free software packages. the FSF are going to come down on them like a ton of bricks (they've been notified). we're also investigating http://mid-fun.com because it looks like they're GPL violators, too. but... when you add up the number of copyright holders on 300 packages, including gnome ones, linux kernel, u-boot and the like, it's _thousands_ of people, and yet chitech thought that their tiny investment over the past few months somehow allows them the right to refuse to honour the GPL... absolutely insane. i've tried to get it across to them that they are asking for some _really_ serious trouble, but they're just not listening.

so... we do something else.

 

[lkcl]

As for what a person like me would want, if you're interested: Good battery life with the *included* battery, without needing to pay a fortune for an aftermarket one (this is where all of the x86 netbooks that I've encountered fall down, in my experience), decent keyboard (aside from the Acer Aspire One and the HP Mini-Note 2133, I've found most netbook keyboards to be abysmal, personally), and a nice screen that isn't harsh on the eyes. I'm afraid I can't really give better thoughts than that - software-wise, I would just want something that works well and stays out of my way.

EDIT: Ninja'd by mali. h34r:

yes i'm interested. ok, regarding battery: the nice thing about ARM cpus is that because they're so low power, the lesson of the CT-PC89E shows us that even as little as a 60 gram 2100mAh battery can get you three hours continuous use! so if you use a "standard" netbook battery, which is what... three times bigger in order to power that 10-15 watt CPU, you get a 10hr+ battery life. keyboards: yeahh, it's whether you can put up with low-cost or better-features: that's _exactly_ the kind of decision that has to be done by people grouping together. put the price-performance of particular components in front of people, and say "you tell _us_".

likewise with the screen: you can get an 8.9in 1024x600 LCD for around $30 in 20k volumes, but it's "consumer-grade", lower contrast ratio, 10,000 hrs on the backlight, and a worse viewing angle. or, you can pay $65 for "industrial-grade" and you get 50,000 hours on the backlight, and guarantees on the performance and lifetime. you _really_ cannot make those kinds of decisions for people: that's the whole point of "doing an openpandora" - tell people what they'll get, for their money, up-front, and say "you decide".

of course, for the screens, it may be possible to satisfy both groups, if there are that many people interested: it is after all just one component. some people have even said that they'd like the pixel-qi screen (which will at this early stage fall into the $65 category not the $40 category, but for different reasons: the NREs need to be covered at this early stage in the first of the pixel-qi commercial LCDs, and those NREs just push the prices up until they're well into mass-volume numbers)

 

[zhasha]

I'd buy from you provided you want to create an actual ARM notebook. Something not too horribly small (my Aspire One is too small) and with a good keyboard. With strong emphasis on the keyboard!

 

[Tempel]

I'm surprised the Touch Book by Always Innovating hasn't come up yet. It's an ARM-based tablet/netbook that costs about $500, so it looks to fit the bill. And, to top it off, the schmatics are available.

The TB has its problems: the hardware has a number of faults and is prone to a few common failures, while the software is woefully immature and seems to focus on appealing to Windows users. As was mentioned, an ARM netbook is, for now anyways, only going to appeal to the people who really want an ARM netbook (like me; that's why I bought one), so I really wish they would focus on getting a more robust, rather than prettier system. But, with hardware designs in hand, you could hopefully improve upon it and drive the whole market forwards.

 

[Polossatik]

Hello,

if you are serious about this, then why not have chat with the people of sharism.cc (Sharism at Work Ltd., copyleft hardware company in Hong Kong) ? that are the (ex moko) people behined the ben nanonote http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page

They are working on 100% (as end goal ) GPL hardware and have contacts all over the place to make stuff.
Currently they are also helping for example the Milkymist One ...

may have a chat with Wolfgang Spraul ( wolfgang at sharism.cc ) , I doubt they want to make a netbook for the moment, but if there is a team willing to have a go at a "open" as possible arm netbook, I'm sure they might be helpfull.
The dev mailing list is also a good source. http://en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/developer/

That said, any note/net book you make would have better something "unique", may it be extreme battery life or so.
Things sould also be focused on the future, not past imho.
I find it for example useless to include a vga output, include simply a HDMI and then you can attach it to do DVI screen also.
VGA is so obselete...

 

[lkcl]

I'm surprised the Touch Book by Always Innovating hasn't come up yet. It's an ARM-based tablet/netbook that costs about $500, so it looks to fit the bill. And, to top it off, the schmatics are available.

$500 isn't "low cost" when you consider that the GPL-violating CT-PC89E has a BOM under _one hundred_ dollars in 20k volumes, $500 is just too much. likewise, the Lenovo Skylight: that's rumoured to be priced around $500 as well.

But, yes: if people want to pay $500 for an 8.9in tablet that can have an extra keyboard+battery attached that turns it into an 8.9in netbook _great_. Those people are already served.

It's the people for whom an 8.9in screen is too small and/or the people for whom $500 is three times too much money that I'm interested to hear from, to find out what _they_ want.

 

[lkcl]

Hello,

if you are serious about this, then why not have chat with the people of sharism.cc (Sharism at Work Ltd., copyleft hardware company in Hong Kong) ? that are the (ex moko) people behined the ben nanonote http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page

yes i am. good idea. am marginally concerned about the speed and capabilities of the nanonote being 3-10 times less than a netbook, but yes, you're right, i should contact them.

They are working on 100% (as end goal ) GPL hardware and have contacts all over the place to make stuff.
Currently they are also helping for example the Milkymist One ...

may have a chat with Wolfgang Spraul ( wolfgang at sharism.cc ) , I doubt they want to make a netbook for the moment, but if there is a team willing to have a go at a "open" as possible arm netbook, I'm sure they might be helpfull.
The dev mailing list is also a good source. http://en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/developer/

thank you. yes i most definitely will contact them.

That said, any note/net book you make would have better something "unique", may it be extreme battery life or so.
Things sould also be focused on the future, not past imho.
I find it for example useless to include a vga output, include simply a HDMI and then you can attach it to do DVI screen also.
VGA is so obselete...

again, it's not up to _me_ to decide what people want. perhaps people will want a low-cost light-weight battery that's interchangeable; perhaps yes they will want extreme battery life, or just.... options. but yes, coming through from discussions over the past few weeks, the message so far seems to be "i want 15 hour battery life". of course, that's going to cost money: it's my job to work out how much, work out the cost of charging circuitry, and then tell people.

the GPL-violating CT-PC89E charges the 2100mAh battery in about 2 hours. that's 1amp per hour. if you have a larger current because you want the larger battery to be charged in a shorter time, that costs money. the question is: are people prepared to pay that money, to get that 15 hour battery life?

 

[mali]

^ Personally I'd be interested in a Vaio P rip-off formfactor-wise with decent ARM SoC. Maximum weight 500g and 10h+ battery life. Larger than 8.9" screen isn't interesting for me, as I have several x86 devices in that size lying around already. The larger the device, the less apparent ARM's advantages are.

edit:
Something like this:
http://www.netbooknews.de/6041/video-ecs-t800-netbook-mit-handy-cpu-android-im-hands-on/