Help Needed Replicating Success Of Openpandora For A Netbook/laptop

[Monk]

It's the people for whom an 8.9in screen is too small and/or the people for whom $500 is three times too much money that I'm interested to hear from, to find out what _they_ want.

That's me!

A middling camera (not the poorest webcam, but not a 20 megapixel jobbie either - better end of webcam level I guess).
Mobile Internet - 3G perhaps.
USB ports that don't need an external hub to connect stuff with.
Working WiFi (at decent speed with GUI).
storage space
Perhaps some "internal" USB ports.
A screen large enough to actually use, ideally for graphics work. A tablet mode would be very interesting, ideally with handwriting recognition.
Most of all - ability to run without battery, but long battery life when connected.

Beyond that, most of it comes down software - software is, after all, what provides most of us with our actual "end experience". The hardware can have every feature under the sun, but if there's no software to drive it all you have is a brick.

3D modelling/sketching would be kinda neat.

 

[Cpt Ezz]

OK, i love the idea and although i don't know that much i would love to be apart of this....if it ever happened

few ideas
EVERYTHING MONK SAID
but i has to be able to run SOME mainstream games...that will be the kicker

Not trying to be harsh but IPAD???? that starts at $500US
that has almost everything that's been asked for

 

[zhasha]

I would personally like to see a 10-12" notebook that doubles as a Cintiq-like tablet. That is to say, you plug it into a PCs USB port and it enables it to act as an external monitor and pen tablet. I don't know if it's possible because of all the patenting crap, but technically speaking it should be possible.
Also, a screen below 1280x800 is not something I'd be too thrilled about.

 

[PokeParadox]

I would love something with a decent resolution screen i.e. 1280x800 would be great crammed into a physically small screen. Good battery life is the most important aspect.
The main problem I have with my EEEPC is that the battery lasts about 2-3hrs. For something that's supposed to be portable it's not really good enough IMO.

• Decent resolution
• Decent battery life
• Fairly small form factor (somewhere between net and notebook)
• Reasonable performance. Main thing I'd use it for would be coding on the go(which is a little fiddly on EEEPC 701... but possible.)

Basically if a device like this is available I need to start budgeting my purchase!

 

[kukacster]

I would buy one if it has an active digitizer and a high resoltuion screen with a size of <= 10' (and if it would be not too expensive).

 

[Exophase]

ok. in the 2 years since the openpandora, they've been extremely lucky: the TI OMAP3530 ARM Cortex A8 is good, stayed good, and pretty much got _zero_ competition. not a squeak. the only thing that comes close, and is actually available, is the Samsung S5PC100 ARM Cortex A8, which is 833mhz, and is available for $14.50 in 1k volumes. that's almost a _third_ of the price of the OMAP3530 600mhz! and that pricing is thanks to the fact that the S5PC100 is in the iPhone 3G, and thus is mass-manufactured. you now also have the S5PC110 and the S5PV210.

You forgot i.MX51, and whatever the available Snapdragon is. I don't really see how these just "come close" when they have CPUs with higher clock speeds and more cache. Sure, the GPUs are weaker and they don't all have DSPs but for a lot of things CPU is king.

iPhone does NOT use S5PC100, that's a common mistake; the GPUs are not the same (at all). S5PC100 is probably cheaper in part because it's made by a company in Korea instead of a company in Texas and because it's using in-house graphics IP that they don't have to pay license fees on. i.MX51 is a little cheaper than OMAP3 too, but not nearly as much.

HDMI out is trivial: these specialist devices like the OMAP3530 and the S5PC100 already _have_ direct HDMI out.

On OMAP3 you don't get both HDMI out and LCD out, so you'd have to mux the two if you want them both driven by the display controller (and you do). Of course that means you don't get them out at the same time but that's not an outrageous price to pay.

a hard drive controller is a little trickier: i honestly don't know about that one (but i know someone who does) - and i also know that there are specialist Marvell Armada ARM CPUs which have SATA controllers built-in. but - really, is an SATA or an IDE controller _that_ necessary, when you can get 480mb/sec over USB 2.0? would you pay the extra $12 (guessing) for an SATA controller, or would you put up with the USB 2 interface? you tell me - i'm genuinely asking, because if enough people reallyreallyreally want SATA controllers, enough to put their money up-front, then who am i to say "no, you can't have it" ! that would be stoopid

It's nice to have the USB bandwidth not tied up in the background by HDD, but really I'm wondering what you're connecting the USB to in this scenario. Do they make harddrives that natively go to USB mass storage? Are they fast? Otherwise it seems like you still need the SATA controller chip in there somewhere, as I imagine that those external harddrives have (as enclosures would). Or are you thinking solid state? Would be pretty limited in size if you want that low price.

and that's why i love the idea behind the openpandora project: it really _is_ about saying to people "whaddyawant?" and then going "okaay, letsdoit" rather than going "that's crazy! nobody would pay for that!"

i dread to think what kind of monster people want. i have nightmares about people being willing to pay for a device with a 17in LCD, a 50Ah battery lasting well over a week, 2gb of DDR3 RAM and only a 300mhz ARM CPU....

Heh, show me the SoC with a 300MHz ARM that interfaces DDR3, that'd be worth using for wtf factor alone ;P

 

[femngi]

Oh God, everyone wants larger screens and longer battery life. It's one or the other folks, once you start getting above 12' the battery drain is so bad that it doesn't matter if you're running ARM or x86. This is *especially* the case if you want everything to be cheap.

 

[kaprikawn]

You have me convinced now, and if you can pull it off before a decent ARM netbook is released you can count me in. That probably gives you until the Chrome OS netbooks hit I guess.

For what it's worth, screen quality is high in my priorities too, seems popular around here.

 

[lkcl]

thank you for everyone's feedback so far - what i'm planning to do is set up a "survey" site which has the "whaddyawant" bit, records the answers, and, along the way, advises of the cost. at the end will be "you want X! so do N miiillion squillion other people!"

this is crucial crucial information to find out, otherwise a) we just don't know B) it's... like... everyone's in the dark, wondering where all the other free software mad netbook/laptop people are!

also there will be "what else have you found - tell us - tell eeeeveryone" question.

quickie, though: yes, 10in and 8.9in screens: 3 watts. 11in, 12in: whamm, bye bye battery. also, the smaller the pixels, the less chance that the liquid crystal gets squeezed into all the millions of holes; rather than sell those they SMASH them. thus the yield goes up, the cost goes up. so, an 8.9in 1024x600 LCD costs $USD 32 in volume; a 4.8in 1024x600 LCD from sharp for the new zaurus costs FIVE times that amount, simply because they smashed six or seven panels for every good one.

these are the kinds of things that will be on the survey. at one end will be the "you asked for a 1920x1080 10in LCD. that will be $2000 and you can have it in 2019 where i've seen with my crystal ball that an entirely new kind of LCD panel is invented. hurrah!" and at the other will be the "you budgeted $15 for the LCD. you want a Skytone Alpha 400. get one from best buy or maplin's. please go away!"

also, just so people know: i've been reminded of the leemote:

http://hackable-devices.org/products/product/lemote-yeeloong-8089-a-notebook/

it's $EUR 295 which is quite steep _but_ it comes with 1gb of DDR2 RAM and that CPU's pretty damn quick for a MIPS - 800mhz. also, the CS5536 is what is used in the OLPC XO-1 and in some of the AMD Geode-based Industrial PCs: it's an IDE + PCI + keyboard controller, blah blah standard fare.

lemote also do a 10.1in 1024x600 but i do not know who is selling it anywhere.

ok enough for the day, i read everyone's messages, will do some considered replies tomorrow.

 

[VRAndy]

I just want to take this opportunity to say that I'd really like to purchase an open eInk device.

That is all.

 

[zhasha]

I will absolutely, unequivocally not settle for anything below a 10" screen. It's unbearable to code on my Aspire One (8.9").

 

[Kangal]

Agree with mali. SoC's should provide an alternative with higher battery life and portability while only providing the perfomance you need nothing that aims to do Crysis!

^ Personally I'd be interested in a Vaio P rip-off formfactor-wise with decent ARM SoC. Maximum weight 500g and 10h+ battery life. Larger than 8.9" screen isn't interesting for me, as I have several x86 devices in that size lying around already. The larger the device, the less apparent ARM's advantages are.

edit:
Something like this:
http://www.netbooknews.de/6041/video-ecs-t800-netbook-mit-handy-cpu-android-im-hands-on/

Thanks for the link, but it seems to be larger than the Vaio-P form.

Agree also with Vaio-P form. If it is going to be portable & functional it needs to draw the line somewhere.
Build a keyboard as small as you can; while still able to type reasonably good (i dont mean 300wpm), add a mouse-clit then have a screen that uses the max avail area with clamshell.
With an optimized Linux (not Android), everyone would rather the 1GHz TI over the sluggish Atom in the Vaio-P!
LED backlit Screen? Saves alot of power for those large screens but would add to development. Are the costs too high for the battery life savings?
Touchscreen? I think definantly as some/most people like its functionality and some have vowed to never touch another mouse clit.
Multi-touch may be pointless, as it makes it more expensive, i dunno what do u think?

A middling camera (not the poorest webcam, but not a 20 megapixel jobbie either - better end of webcam level I guess).
Mobile Internet - 3G perhaps.
USB ports that don't need an external hub to connect stuff with.
Working WiFi (at decent speed with GUI).
storage space
Perhaps some "internal" USB ports.
A screen large enough to actually use, ideally for graphics work. A tablet mode would be very interesting, ideally with handwriting recognition.
Most of all - ability to run without battery, but long battery life when connected.

Beyond that, most of it comes down software - software is, after all, what provides most of us with our actual "end experience". The hardware can have every feature under the sun, but if there's no software to drive it all you have is a brick.

3D modelling/sketching would be kinda neat.

Would be good to have mobile internet, scratch that, without it I don't think the device will pickup enough customers to make it work.
All the above are good recommendations ie realistic
I dont know what the (additional?) internal USB ports would be used for, Hard drive?
Run device without battery (ie connected to power source only) would be handy, but not that important imo since even a *dead battery connected would provide a similar experience.
If this bonus doesn't add significant cost or waste too much precious space I say go for it, otherwise it might be another expensive bonus which isn't used often enough.


edit:

I will absolutely, unequivocally not settle for anything below a 10" screen. It's unbearable to code on my Aspire One (8.9").

It will be ultra-portable computing for everyday use. Not really for coding.
But if there is enough people that want to code on something portable just to expand the market.
=Provide a larger netbook alternative with 10" screen also boasting a proper TouchPad.

 

[Polossatik]

ok, let's throw my list in the mix.

net/notebook form factor.

Screen

I agree LCD's cost a lot if you go outside mainstream, but there is a reason why I still use my old Dell C610 lattitude laptop, it has one fo those nice 1400x1050 14.1 non glaring 4:3 screens. It's just "spot on" as resolution vs physical size.

Seen everybody wants a 16:9 or 5:3 screen nowerdays I guess i would be happy with 1366x768 (10") or 1440x900 (11") resolutions.
That smaller stuff like 1024x600 is just such a pain. simply not enough pixels.
And also non glaring would be nice, I look at a screen to see what's on the screen, not to see myself

I don't see the need for Touch on a laptop , only when you use a tablet style device. It's "cool" but why poke at the screen if you have a keyboard in front of you?
In general laptop who you can become tablets by swivel the screen have 2 flaws, they are heavier then a tablet itself and the swivel thingy is often clumsy or fragile or combination of both. Making something swivel in a decent way costs $$$, maybe then consider better a "real" tablet

Pixel Qi type screens would make a wonderfull (if they promise up to expectations) thing, but I doubt this is realistic seen the novelty of the technology and the $$$

CPU

Should be able to decode 720p, not as much to see 720p on the screen, just to avoid recoding of all your files - lengthy process.
IF the cpu can do that then it will be fine for other "normal" jobs (browsing, etc ) also...
DSP is nice, but they are underused so I would focus more on the cpu.

GPU

nothing fancy here, I guess any recent ARM chipset has a nice range on offer, I would be more concerned if there are decent and open source drivers (or blobs that are well maintained) then the actual specs, no sence to have a superdupe GPU but no software that can use it.

RAM

1gb would be nice, better more and tad slower then less and faster ram IMHO

Storage

A SATA interface is really needed when wanting to have a HDD or SSD, USB just doesn't cut it. And a ESATA is always nice to have.
I find the idea used by the touchbook, to have internal USB slots, good. What this has to do with storage? Forsee a place for a sata HDD (for the people who want lot's of GB or fast SSD) but also forsee a internal SD slot (cheap solid state alternative) that can be used a boot device. on the other side of the HDD bay forsee a internal USB port - don't use a HDD? now you can stick a rather big USB thing in this.

External SD slot is mandatory, 2 would be even better ...

Network Connectivity

WiFi (802.11n with 5 GHz would be nice, if no 5 GHz then 802.11g )
BT (2.1 + EDR ).
Ethernet (100Mbit seams enough) - you just can't beat a decent network cable in terms of speed.
optional 3G would be nice - but 3g Mini PCI-Express cards seams quite expensive and then the laptop needs to have a sim slot . USB modems are often modded in netbooks. Depends mainly on additional cost for people who don't use the 3G.

Other Ports and stuff

as many USB as you can, at least 2 who are rather close to each other so you can draw more then 500mA for a 2.5" disk without pulling the split cable apart
one combined ESATA/USB port.
HDMI.
3.5 mm headphone jack
3.5 mm mic in
Speakers not made of altoids tin cans
A hardware volume control (like pandora or volume buttons above keyboard) that works for both speakers and headphone jack.
Battery size: life of at least 10+ Hours "surfing" (= not lowest brightness with no wifi and so on stupid sales brochure figures)
Keyboard - steal the ones from a Asus 1000HE.
A touchpad that has some size and that you can actually see, also 2 "mouse" buttons that don't click when breathing or that you have to hit "right on THE spot" would be nice. Multi touch is cool and so but I prefer accuracy and responsiveness, which seams lately not be very high on touchpad makers list.
Webcam - I don't care about this but it seams mandatory these day's to show the world you're chatting naked, if you include something please make sure it actually works more or less in low light.
Kensington slot
finish - please don't make it a mirror, slightly "rough" surface so that if you take it it doesn't slips out of your fingers/hand would be nice. Allow all colours as long as it's black (no silly "accents" or annoying bright (bleu) leds please)

 

[zhasha]

Regarding the multi-touch comment(s), you can use the now owned by Amazon, TouchCo technology that's a resistive transparent overlay. You can probably produce them yourself with the help of a plastics factory. The estimates given by TouchCo were basically "dis shiz be dirt cheap yo". That's of course if you want a touch screen. Personally I'd much rather have a digitizer, which you can also produce yourself, easily, but it's a bit more expensive as it requires a PCB a little larger than the screen itself.

 

[zevdawg]

The whole "computers run Windows" argument is as old as the sun. No, the problem you face is, now, all computers, whether they run Windows, OSX, or Linux - they all do the same function; wherein back in the day (not too many years ago) Windows was for business/games, Mac was viewed heavily as a multimedia rendering platform, and Linux for coders/servers/etc.

So what makes this any different from the others? I'm kinda getting this "because I can" vibe - though I know you know what you're talking about. In as far as getting it "cheap", you get what you pay for. There are still a lot of people out there that swear by having their stuff built in Japan :lol:

 

[overjupiter]

B) With the infrastructure and the level of trust that you've established with people, whose money you've held in trust for two years to get these machines made, are you going to let that infrastructure go, once the 4,000 machines are made, or would you be willing to maintain that infrastructure and use it for a second project - a low-cost ARM netbook (assuming that a critical mass of people can be reached)?

You say $500 per device is too much. Lets say your netbook costs the same as a pandora $330.

You are basically asking 4000 people to give you a $1,320,000 interest free loan for however long it takes to create and deliver your product.

Would 4000 people give you that much money for 2 years? Open Pandora has done so, but my guess is if they told people from day one that it would take 2 years to deliver a product, it would be a different story. They have the advantage that a lot of people in this community trust they will deliver a superior product to what it currently available.

Good luck with your project.

 

[crackerjacker]

Well, the whole thing is pretty simple. It's basicly a modified ponzi scheme. Let's call it a pandora scheme.

You start by taking a look at current trends and try and guestimate what kinds of products or gadgets would be affordable 2 years down the road. 2 years is very important, because this is the bare minimum length of time you have to keep the whole thing going.

Once we have a pretty solid idea about what would be trendy in the future, we make some mock-up's of the device and distribute them to various gadget blogs. Of course, since or vaporware, I mean product, is inline with current trends, we should get positive feedback and a public introduction. Now a big part of pulling off a pandora scheme is an underlying beleif by the public at large, that if it's on the internet, it must be true.

Now we start up a community forum. We need to have some very trusted admins to monitor the forums and delete any discenting comments as quickly and efficently as possible. We can't let savy passersby pop the bubble and derail or scam before the 2 years is up. After the interest is perked in our projected patsy group, we can initiate the pre-order phase. Stating a limited availability is a great way to get things going quickly. If pre-orders start to drop off sharply, we can say that they have been filled and we are no longer taking pre-orders. This really helps us look legit. We can open and close the pre-order process so long as we can see our way to 2 years past the last pre-order. We would never legally be allowed to release the list of pre-orders, so people will never really know just how much money we have taken.

For the next 2 years, we basicly just stop by the forums once in a while and tell people things are going great, or there was a delay. Keep it brief. We don't want people to get wise. Don't visit too often and never show great strides in progress. Stringing them out is the name of the game here.

After 2 years, we can't be sued and we are sitting pretty on the beach drinking mai-tai's.

Total cost of implementation is only a few thousand dollars. There might be a few expenses along the way, fabing parts and what not to look legit, but nothing unreasonble.

Net gain could be in the millions or tens of millions depending on how hard you flog it, but all in all a pretty good haul.

 

[Kangal]

Well, the whole thing is pretty simple. It's basicly a modified ponzi scheme. Let's call it a pandora scheme.
...

Wow that was quite a read. Damn it sounds like you nailed the Pandora progress.
But put yourself in the shoes of OP:
- I have millions of dollars but nearly all of it is wasted on boards, CPU, cases and accessories
- I am building an OS from the ground up
- I can be sued for millions of dollars so I need to plan carefully
- There's >2,000 people asking me to hurry up
- The chinese factory said "fu for always harassing me, no cases, no money for u!"
- I am still in ripe age and dont wanna goto jail
- How does ED keep his hair straight?
- Will Dreamcast emulation be decent?
- These forums always ask for more details, a new date for postage, order number etc
- Things are getting out of hand, the original plan changed so much
- If I dont get the first batch done good and in the nearby time, everyone is going to cancel
- If everyone cancel's pre-order, I might have a big debt, 4000 completed units but no customers
- What! 3DS!!
- etc etc

 

[Exophase]

Nice try Cracker Jacker, but if you're insinuating that any of that even could apply to the Open Pandora team then I'm afraid what you're saying has several big problems -

One, craigix, EvilDragon, Fatih, and others are not just some anon on the internet but reputable resellers who have been publicly involved in the low scale handheld scene for years.

Two, you say that they can't be sued but I'm pretty sure they'd lose a class action lawsuit against them for fraud, having quite delicately and deliberately fabricated all kinds of evidence.

Three, even if they weren't financially ruined directly their public professional lives (their shops, for instance) would be completely ruined.

Four, their personal lives would probably also be pretty damaged and even at risk. People know where they live, you know.

Five, your suggestion that everything thus far could be done with a few thousand dollars is a joke. A case mould alone costs over $100,000 dollars, and spinning the number of boards they have thus far is a very substantial cost, not to mention, having nubs made that don't exist anywhere else on the market. If you think that the photographic and video evidence, coming from several sources, could have been faked for ANY of these things then you have quite an active imagination.

Six, they've developed exclusive relationships with companies such as TI, who have also openly admitted this - this means that they're probably liable for more than you realize.

Seven, and listen closely because this is the most important thing I'm going to tell you, OP has all but proven beyond any reasonable doubt that they are capable of eventually releasing this product. So why would they scam a single batch when they could instead sell several times, not to mention any successor devices, and stand to make much, much more in profit by actually selling their advertised product?

By the way, I have a feeling that you're going to respond something along the lines of "I'm not saying OP is actually scamming, just that if they wanted to they could have been." Well sorry, but no - cool story and all, but your scenario is actually pretty silly.

 

[crackerjacker]

Wow that was quite a read. Damn it sounds like you nailed the Pandora progress.
But put yourself in the shoes of OP:
- I have millions of dollars but nearly all of it is wasted on

Hookers and Blow

- I am building an OS from the ground up

Well somebody did, but not me.

- I can be sued for millions of dollars so I need to plan carefully

We have to make it past the 2 year legal cutoff.

- There's >2,000 people asking me to hurry up

Rubes!

- The chinese factory said "fu for always harassing me, no cases, no money for u!"

I should be able to get 6 months out of that one. Muahahahahahahaha

- I am still in ripe age and dont wanna goto jail

2 years babey, we can do it. Just gotta hold out for 2 years.

- How does ED keep his hair straight?

Gel or mouse work very well thank you.

- Will Dreamcast emulation be decent?

Sure. It might take a few extra months to polish it up though(Wink Wink)

- These forums always ask for more details, a new date for postage, order number etc?

All part of the plan