Has Wiz Development Died?

[Ravnos]

Didn't we get these threads every couple of months when the GP2X was the big thing? "The scene's dead, time to move on!" Then a few weeks later you'd see a ton of new releases, then another slowdown, "Scene's dead", rinse, repeat.

I remember when things slowed down a few times on the GP2X, I just don't remember it slowing down so dramatically so soon after launch.

Correct. The GP32 never slowed down until it was finally replaced with the GP2X, and the GP2X didn't slow down until a couple years after its release. The Wiz just came out and already attention seems to be shifting from it to the Dingoo and Pandora.

Just the activity of these boards don't seem to compare to what things used to be like.

I don't know about the GP32, but you're wrong about the GP2X. There were always dry spells for new releases, where things would slow to a crawl and you'd get the odd new thing or port here and there but not a ton of stuff. Then there'd be a competition or some other thing would happen and suddenly we'd have so much coming out that we didn't know what to do with it all. This sort of thing comes up regularly around here. The easy stuff is done and now you have to wait for the not-so-easy stuff. It'll seem slow until that stuff starts coming out.

 

[aho]

[...]

Well, Fenix/Bennu is sorta pointless. It's pretty much like C/C++... just with an uglier syntax

Umm... No, it's not. Somebody obviously hasn't been paying attention.

Not managed, very low level, (slow) compilation, low turn-over rates, awkward syntax... well, there are coroutines, but why should I care about that? I don't need them.

It's also a language I cannot use for anything else. Whereas Java, Python, JS, AS3, C/C++ do have some use elsewhere (for me anyways). Even something as alien as D looks far more appealing.

 

[christo930]

It seems to me that neither the wiz nor the Dingoo bring anything new from the gp2x and that might be why there isn't a slew of new stuff. From my odd browsing of the wiz software, much of the popular gp2x stuff has been ported over, but what new killer stuff can come out for it? At least with the pandora you might see a great deal of iapps, but the wiz doesn't have wi-fi.

 

[iprice]

[...]

Well, Fenix/Bennu is sorta pointless. It's pretty much like C/C++... just with an uglier syntax

Umm... No, it's not. Somebody obviously hasn't been paying attention.

Not managed, very low level, (slow) compilation, low turn-over rates, awkward syntax... well, there are coroutines, but why should I care about that? I don't need them.

It's also a language I cannot use for anything else. Whereas Java, Python, JS, AS3, C/C++ do have some use elsewhere (for me anyways). Even something as alien as D looks far more appealing.

Just because YOU can't use Fenix/Bennu anywhere else doesn't mean it's useless or that other developers can't - Fenix is incredibly portable, so there isn't really many machines that you can't use it on.

So it doesn't appeal to you - it perhaps isn't inteded to. Fenix was designed as a quick and easy development tool, originally based on the Div Games Studio - a task it succeeds in. A programming language is only as good as the person using it. I've seen some crap games in all those languages you mentioned, and some excellent ones done in BASIC. (Yes, I've seen good and crap in both of them too). It doesn't matter what you use, as long as you enjoy doing what you're doing.

Remember that there are lots of great games on GP2X and Wiz created in Fenix - just look at Ruckage's output.

BTW I'm not a Fenix/Bennu user either, so this isn't a fanboy post.

 

[Sphinxter]

Programming is like running, it's never wasted because it's just plain good exercise.

 

[Orkie]

The guy who started the whole 'running' craze died of a heart attack while doing it...

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

You know what else is dead? mesdigital.com, and it's been like that for weeks or even months. I hope it's just their website and not the entire company which has gone down. Does anyone have more information on this?

 

[aho]

[...]

Well, Fenix/Bennu is sorta pointless. It's pretty much like C/C++... just with an uglier syntax

Umm... No, it's not. Somebody obviously hasn't been paying attention.

Not managed, very low level, (slow) compilation, low turn-over rates, awkward syntax... well, there are coroutines, but why should I care about that? I don't need them.

It's also a language I cannot use for anything else. Whereas Java, Python, JS, AS3, C/C++ do have some use elsewhere (for me anyways). Even something as alien as D looks far more appealing.

Just because YOU can't use Fenix/Bennu anywhere else doesn't mean it's useless or that other developers can't - Fenix is incredibly portable, so there isn't really many machines that you can't use it on.

So it doesn't appeal to you - it perhaps isn't inteded to. Fenix was designed as a quick and easy development tool, originally based on the Div Games Studio - a task it succeeds in. A programming language is only as good as the person using it. I've seen some crap games in all those languages you mentioned, and some excellent ones done in BASIC. (Yes, I've seen good and crap in both of them too). It doesn't matter what you use, as long as you enjoy doing what you're doing.

Remember that there are lots of great games on GP2X and Wiz created in Fenix - just look at Ruckage's output.

BTW I'm not a Fenix/Bennu user either, so this isn't a fanboy post.

My point was that Fenix/Bennu isn't a great alternative, because it doesn't offer any groundbreaking benefits compared to C/C++. People who are using it are most likely about as productive as they would be if they were using C/C++.

And using it for something else... well, I meant outside your hobby. The other languages I mentioned are languages I can use in my day-job. They are languages which are relevant to my career. Getting better at them in my spare time (while having fun) does have very appealing benefits.

So, of course I'd like to use a language which has a significant connection to my field of work. And if I have to learn a new language I'd rather pick one I can put on my CV. E.g. I've used POV-SDL for quite a bit, but who the f- cares about that?

At the very least the language should make it easy. Since Fenix/Bennu isn't managed it doesn't even do that.

 

[DurTahar]

I would argue that learning programming languages doesn't make you a better programmer at all. What makes you a better programmer is a) practice and B) understanding how computers work on a more basic level. A good programmer has no problem picking up another language, a bad programmer is incapable of switching because they only learned how one language works instead of how the entire machine works.

You can use whatever languages you want, that doesn't make you a better or worse programmer. It doesn't matter if you can't use the language outside of your hobby, if you're a good programmer you'll be able to pick up C++ without much of a problem. I'd advocate working towards becoming a good programmer via whatever means they want before I ever told someone what language they should or should not be learning.

Also you sort of assumed that someone who makes games as a hobby wants a computer-based career. It could be that their programming interest ends at games. I've seen plenty of people who started off in CS degrees and changed to something else because they didn't want to do it for the rest of their life. This doesn't mean that they CAN'T do it, just that they want to do something else for their day job. In that case, who cares how they go about doing their hobby?

 

[iprice]

And using it for something else... well, I meant outside your hobby. The other languages I mentioned are languages I can use in my day-job. They are languages which are relevant to my career.

But it still does't make them pointless or useless - what they do, they do well. And Fenix and Bennu might not be managed or easy for you, but they are to others.

 

[Orkie]

You can use whatever languages you want, that doesn't make you a better or worse programmer.

Unless the language in question is VB .

 

[aho]

[...]
Also you sort of assumed that someone who makes games as a hobby wants a computer-based career.[...]

I was strictly talking about myself and my point of view. I don't know anyone here well enough to make assumptions about their motifs and goals.

However, I would like to see more options for developers to get their own applications on this platform. Especially less complicated and less long-winded routes. Patience and time are always limited resources. People who are more like artists than developers probably won't bother getting knee deep into this mess.

Easy routes are very important if you'd like to make a platform more appealing to a bigger audience.

And using it for something else... well, I meant outside your hobby. The other languages I mentioned are languages I can use in my day-job. They are languages which are relevant to my career.

But it still does't make them pointless or useless - what they do, they do well. And Fenix and Bennu might not be managed or easy for you, but they are to others.

Ahm. Fenix/Bennu isn't (memory) managed for anyone. You have to allocate and deallocate memory by yourself, which of course means you have to deal with related bugs. That's why I don't see the point.

 

[iprice]

My wording meant "Fenix and Bennu might not be managed; OR easy for you, but they are for others." meaning that you might not understand them, but others do. Nothing to do with the "managed" part - for many that is actually a blessing!

And DurTahar is indeed correct - not everyone want a career in the computer industry. I make games. I make freeware games. I always have and always will. I am not interested in a career or using more supposedly more professional programming languages. I have used C and C++ in the past, but now use GLBasic, which to you is probably a lesser language and completely pointless. It hasn't stopped me creating games or apps with it that I and others have enjoyed.

I abhor assholes that constantly state that X language is better than Y language, especially those that don't understand them. The only thing worse than this is those that compare internet browsers!

 

[aho]

[...]
I abhor assholes that constantly state that X language is better than Y language, especially those that don't understand them.[...]

Why, thank you.

Sigh.

I say it once more. Fenix/Bennu doesn't offer enough benefits to warrant the learning curve. This doesn't make it a bad language, it just makes it sorta uninteresting.

For example, people who don't like C/C++, because it's too fragile and because it's too much work, won't like Fenix/Bennu for the very same reasons. It really isn't much of an alternative. They are looking for a different solution. They are looking for something which allows quicker development with way less pitfalls. And they happily trade a bit of performance for these advantages (as long as they are still able to write the applications they want to write).

E.g. I do not care if my application takes more CPU cycles if it's still snappy enough. If I can save some time by using a higher level language, I'll happily do that.

Also, if I'd be able to run my applications on say... Android handsets, that would be also very interesting. Being able to run it on other PCs, however, isn't. Unless it's in the browser of course.

In your world everyone should be happy with red and green cars. Even if they actually want a motorbike or even a bicycle. Or maybe they want a tank or a whole battery of RC cars. Fenix/Bennu and C/C++ are just too similar from my PoV.

 

[iprice]

In your world everyone should be happy with red and green cars.

You don't understand me at all - you obviously haven't understood a word I've said. I'm actually more than willing to have a multitude of different languages or cars or bikes or tanks or whatever the fuck you want to drive - after all every one is different. You were stating the opposite - that having a choice of other languages to cater for other people's needs and tastes was pointless or without purpose. I called you up on that. Sure Fenix doesn't suit your particular needs, that doesn't mean it doesn't suit other devs needs. It also doesn't mean that Fenix is a one trick pony that fits all. FFS.

 

[aho]

[...]You were stating the opposite - that having a choice of other languages to cater for other people's needs and tastes was pointless or without purpose.[...]

So, some other syntax and coroutines magically makes it oh-so-f-ing different to C/C++? How? Are there people with a curly bracket disability? Curlyphobia?

It's procedural imperative low level stuff. Same thing. Different color. I.e. choosing one over the other doesn't really affect anything.

Ever heard that "right tool for the job" thing? There are 2 hammers with different handles and over there is a box of screws.

 

[fishybawb]

This is exceptionally retarded. Aho, some people like languages that you don't, get over it. Fenix/Bennu has been used to create a good number of very good and popular games, so it clearly has a use, regardless of what other languages you think it may or may not bear a resemblance to.

 

[Orkie]

I am confused, is it OK to have a blue car or not?

 

[quadomatic]

the GP2X didn't slow down until a couple years after its release. The Wiz just came out and already attention seems to be shifting from it to the Dingoo and Pandora.

Just the activity of these boards don't seem to compare to what things used to be like.

The Wiz already has so much good stuff that came out so fast...anything NEW (as in not beefed up off of stuff that was done for GP2X) is going to take some time. And, the GP2X did slow down...or at least it was real slow when I got mine in late 07. Don't get me wrong, stuff did come out for it - updates for PocketSNES, Picodrive updates (I think?), new versions of sqdef, and some various other games. There just wasn't a flood of new stuff like there is when you have a new system (or updates for a lot of stuff, I always wanted an update for gngeo2x).

The Dingoo and Pandora get so much attention because the scene is new. The Dingoo is slowly getting things the GP2X has had for ages. The Pandora is getting stuff that people couldn't even fathom on the GP2X. It takes longer to exhaust the possibilites.

Sorry for jumping off topic on this one (please don't flame me, I'm just curious, and I do like the Wiz), but just wondering, how many of you are have/plan to get a Dingoo to develop on?

 

[iprice]

I have no plans to get a Dingoo or to develop for it. I already own 2 GP2Xs (F100 and F200) and a Wiz - I see the Dingoo as being too similar to those, it doesn't seem to offer anything new. The Pandora will be my next handheld console, although I might get an iPhone/iPod Touch at some point.