Gpl & Source Code - Constructive Suggestions

[Robster]

codesmith: you've been reading one of the (zillions of) crappy misinformations about the GPL. Two sure signs: "the legal complexity of the GPL or LGPL licenses" and "if you statically link your code against glibc ... your code automatically becomes GPLd."

The GPL is not complex. Compared to your average Microsoft EULA, it's a kid's poem. Also, it's very straight-forward and doesn't contain any mines or "legal time-bombs".

Here's the lowdown: copyright-holders of GPL code offer you a license to distribute their code as part of your product. To accept that license, you must accept the condition, which is that your code must also be released under the GPL. There are endless discussions about how to get exemptions, how to distribute closed code along with GPL code etc, but the central gist is extremely simple.

Now, what if you violate the GPL, and distribute your product without the source code? Well, then your license to distribute the GPL code vanishes. You may not distribute your product with that GPL code in it. Your code does not become forcibly subjected to the terms of the GPL (this is the famous Microsoft "viral" FUD), you just aren't allowed to distribute the GPL code.

barak_pearlmutter, if he has standing as he says he does, may obtain an injunction against the GP2X which will prevent it being sold in any country which respects copyright law.

Cyclops: who gives a flying fuck about whether you have confidence in DJWillis? It comes down to this: DJWillis and Craigix are trying, diplomatically but very forcefully, to secure the release of the source code from GPH, who are somewhat confused about the whole deal. It is in our interests for them to succeed, because if they don't, then barak_pearlmutter or someone else could shut down the whole GP2X scene for us.

And who wants that?

 

[Robster]

Flexinoodle: GPL is a license. It is neither a law nor a contract. If you don't know the difference between these things, please don't comment on them. GPL discussions can get very messy, due to the misdirected input of (well-meaning but) ill-informed people.

 

[codesmith]

@Flexinoodle:
The reason why I'm not worried is that I'm fairly certain that GPH do have plans to release the source code, as I said they've already proved themselves to be something other than greedy corporates, so I am quite confident it's only a matter of time. If they get sued by someone wanting to punish them (as opposed to just making them release the source) and either go bankrupt or drop the GP2X as a product, then we'll never know will we?

@Robster:

It is in our interests for them to succeed, because if they don't, then barak_pearlmutter or someone else could shut down the whole GP2X scene for us.

Precisely. IHMO DJWillis and Craigix are doing a helluva lot more good (and have a much greater chance of success for everyone involved) than anyone waving the lawsuit stick around.

 

[codeninja]

Yesterday I got a handful of brand new GP2X units. These appear to contain software under the GNU GPL, including but not limited to the Linux kernel. A CDROM was enclosed in the box, but to my surprise it contained no source code, and instead contained more GPLed software (eg Quake, Quake2) also without source code. There was no written offer of source code.

This is breaking the terms of the GNU GPL. That makes the distribution of software done in shipping the unit to me a violation of copyright. In order to compel someone under copyright law, one must have "standing". In this case, that means one must be the holder of the copyright in question. I, as an author of some code in the Linux kernel (grep Barak /usr/src/linux/CREDITS) do have such standing.

Therefore I have two questions to the community here:

(1) Would anyone else with standing---ie an author of GPLed or LGPLed code included in the GP2X and associated materials---please contact me to coordinate.

(2) Does anyone happen to know the appropriate legal contact at GP2X.com. (I'm looking for phone number, FAX number, email, and physical address.)
--
Barak Pearlmutter

​

What's the hurry? Are you trying to make GP2x ripoff device yourself with it or something like those Chinese people?

There is no obligation on GPH side that they have to open up the source on the day one. Well, it's not even officially released yet. This kind of push can actually turn people away from GPL, you have to understand. The last thing a business want is people nagging on their back while the work is still being done. GP2x firmware is far from being completed, I'll even hesitate to call it a beta from all the incompleteness of it that I've read.

Why don't you go bug Sony for their source code of PS2 and PSP, instead? Sony did released their Linux SDK for PS2, but they charged $200 for it and good part of it is just binaries and libraries, which is NOT what they're supposed to do under GPL.

 

[Cyclops]

There is already hostility towards Linux in these forums

​

Actually, there's not. There is a hostility towards heavy-handed enforcement of the GPL by well-meaning individuals like yourself. It only takes one ambulance-chaser wanting to make a name for himself (he won't stop at GPH releasing the source, he'll seek punitive damages, class-action, etc) for GPH to be driven into the ground. A lot of the newcomers here are looking at the world through MS-vs-Linux coloured glasses, but not all companies are evil and out to get you. The fact is, GPH actually listened to us, their longtime users, and changed the design of their new console based on what we asked for (do you think Sony or Nintendo would double the amount of memory, one of the most price-sensitive components in a system, just because a bunch of Zelda fans asked them to?). As far as we're concerned, GPH is the good guy, and all the "we want the source NOW" types are the evil ones wanting to spread their "One OpenSource Way".

​

I think my post is quite clear, and my mantra has been the same, but clearly I'm not making my case clear I don't care about GPL,BSD or even microsoft. I want as full and as rich an experience of my GP2X(and computing in general) as possible. Thats very selfish of me.

I have always said that we(and I mean I) need a diplomat to wave a magic wand, and make GPH make my life a lot more fun. Unfortunately we are such a bunch of useless pillocks(read me). We don't have one, unless DjWillis can pull a blinder. In reality I think an "ambulance-chaser"(a term that commands respect) will be more effective. I think there will be a lot more topics like this one, each one will make me cringe more.

 

[barak_pearlmutter]

There is no obligation on GPH side that they have to open up the source on the day one. Well, it's not even officially released yet.

That is not true.

Permission to distribute GPLed binaries is granted only if the corresponding source code is made availalble. At the time of distribution, to the recipient of the binary. Period.

There is no exemption for "not officially released" versions.

 

[cheap-plastic]

There is already hostility towards Linux in these forums

​

Actually, there's not. There is a hostility towards heavy-handed enforcement of the GPL by well-meaning individuals like yourself. It only takes one ambulance-chaser wanting to make a name for himself (he won't stop at GPH releasing the source, he'll seek punitive damages, class-action, etc) for GPH to be driven into the ground. A lot of the newcomers here are looking at the world through MS-vs-Linux coloured glasses, but not all companies are evil and out to get you. The fact is, GPH actually listened to us, their longtime users, and changed the design of their new console based on what we asked for (do you think Sony or Nintendo would double the amount of memory, one of the most price-sensitive components in a system, just because a bunch of Zelda fans asked them to?). As far as we're concerned, GPH is the good guy, and all the "we want the source NOW" types are the evil ones wanting to spread their "One OpenSource Way" no matter who gets squashed.

​

Okay, I joined up to reply on this.
1) GPH wants, like every company, to make money. They don't listen to "us" just becaus e they were so kind to do so. GPH is not a charity organisation. They do it because they want us to buy it.

2) A few months ago, I heard about the GP2X for the first time, on Slashdot. The fact that it would be running the Linux kernel drew my attention. It seemed like the company behind the GP2X was all about open source, and I ordered one. The perspective of having a relatively cheap, open sourced, System-On-Chip dev-board looked great.
It's still on their website: "GP2X is being made by customer", "Open mind, open source" and probably more of those nonsenses.
Well, at this point, it seems like it was only used to get the frontpage on Slashdot. Like every other software license, it should be respected. If they would just release what they have for now, they would proove their goodwill.

3) The fact that you say "the evil ones wanting to spread their "One OpenSource Way" no matter who gets squashed." shows your lack of the earlier mentioned respect for other people their hard work. If they want to keep things closed-source, they should't have chosen the Linux kernel for the GP2X. There are other commercial OS'es out there which could have been used.

If GPH's disinformation about the used GPL'ed software continues, then maybe it will go back to Slashdot... :angry:

 

[Cyclops]

Cyclops: who gives a flying fuck about whether you have confidence in DJWillis? It comes down to this: DJWillis and Craigix are trying, diplomatically but very forcefully, to secure the release of the source code from GPH, who are somewhat confused about the whole deal. It is in our interests for them to succeed, because if they don't, then barak_pearlmutter or someone else could shut down the whole GP2X scene for us.

And who wants that?

​

Easy now. have you read craig9's post. I have. It says lets get rid of linux, that gives zero confidence in his ability. In fact I don't want him anywhere near GPH when it comes to diplomacy, becuase he don't want, what I want. I understand very forcefully it means threats of "legal action". Clearly it does not mean not. I think being a diplomat is *hard*, Why don't I have confidence in his abilities becuase I'm sat here with linux on my GP2X with no souce code, and its no suprise to anyone this day would come.

 

[OCA|]

In reality I think an "ambulance-chaser"(a term that commands respect) will be more effective.

​

I think everyone needs to just calm down and relax for a moment.

First, I understand GPH is in the wrong. They should have complied with the GPL from day one.

But legal action is not the answer - not yet, anyway. From what I understand, they have been acting in good faith and fully intend to release the sources soon. If legal action is taken now, GPH will be forced to divert their already limited resources (both time and money), and this would likely delay everything (production and source release) even more. Furthermore, depending on how far it was taken, it could push GPH out of business. Then what would you be left with - source code designed for a device that is no longer in production that likely won't be worth using elsewhere?

If that were to happen, I believe it would have a chilling effect on the embedded Linux market. Opponents of Linux would have a ball with it, spreading all sorts of FUD, and designers of embedded devices would think long and hard about using anything with the GPL license attached to it.

That, of course, is a worst case scenario... but it really sounds like some are out for blood at this point, so I think there is a real chance of that happening.

Please, give GPH some time. As DJWillis mentioned in his Blog, there is consistant progress in the talks with GPH. If those break down, I'll be right behind him and the rest of you with condeming GPH, as much as that would sadden me. But in the meantime, they are showing good faith, and it's obvious they are banking their strategy on strong support from the development community - they will do what's right. "Right" just seems to be delayed along with.. well, just about everything else

Oh, and for those in the US, Happy Thanksgiving

-OCA|

 

[Flexinoodle]

Flexinoodle: GPL is a license. It is neither a law nor a contract. If you don't know the difference between these things, please don't comment on them. GPL discussions can get very messy, due to the misdirected input of (well-meaning but) ill-informed people.

​

Well the condescending tone wasn't needed but anyway, If party A agrees to licence something from party B this in terms of a court of law in the UK is seen as a contract entered into, If party A then does not follow the terms of that licence this is seen as breach of contract and is treated exactly the same, This is breaking the law and gives any party who holds the copyright to the licences that have not been adhered to a strong legal case for compensation, This compensation can take on many forms for different formats and even complete product ownership is not unheard of in extreme cases, So laws are most definatly inplace here especially copyright laws, I'm sure GPH and the guys around here trying to sort it out will sort it out but i was pointing out facts, There areway toomany people saying hey lets give GPH a break but what if somebody whocould not care less about GPH and the GP2X is effected, It could quickly become very very messy.

This is not scare mongering like some would say but pure up fact nothing else, The quicker it is sorted out the better even if just to shut these threads down.

 

[Sonic-NKT]

i just say hey, the gp2x isnt even official released yet. all who have a unit yet are kind of beta testers. give them time to clean up their code, im sure there will release the parts which are under gpl (bootloader, mplayer (without the special parts for decoding hardware), kernel)

 

[codesmith]

In reality I think an "ambulance-chaser"(a term that commands respect) will be more effective. I think there will be a lot more topics like this one, each one will make me cringe more.

​

Hehe, now I know you're not a native English speaker. "Ambulance chaser" is not a term that commands respect. An ambulance chaser is what we call a lawyer that goes around looking for anyone who got injured in an accident so that they can sue someone (anyone) about it. They have no interest in the actual cases, they just want to take advantage of people's anger to make a quick buck. Examples also include those lawyers who sue Rock Star Games because kids stole cars and blamed it on Grand Theft Auto, or those guys in late night TV ads saying "Have you ever used <insert [ spam word ] here>? Studies show that you could have suffered grievious harm, and you could collect damages from <insert pharma company here>. Just send me your details and <insert law company here> will take care of it for you."

I agree, these topics are not very productive. I always tell myself I won't get drawn into them again, but I guess I'm too much of a geek

 

[Cyclops]

i just say hey, the gp2x isnt even official released yet. all who have a unit yet are kind of beta testers. give them time to clean up their code, im sure there will release the parts which are under gpl (bootloader, mplayer (without the special parts for decoding hardware), kernel)

​

1000 units is pretty official. The reality of what your saying is that anything they have done to make the GP2X linux will be removed. If thats the case why bother using a licence like GPL. I can already download mplayer,u-boot,the kernel already without the GPH stuff in.

 

[codeninja]

Permission to distribute GPLed binaries is granted only if the corresponding source code is made availalble. At the time of distribution, to the recipient of the binary. Period.

There is no exemption for "not officially released" versions.

​

Go ahead and play your police role, and kill the product immaturely, if that's your intention. How many GPL software actually distribute their source code the day they release the binary? Everything takes time, and it's too early to complain about it at this point. Just face the reality, and stop complaining why the world is not perfect because it ISN'T. You may be right in principle, but your principle won't go too far in real life and you may not like what it will bring to you in this case. And, that's what many people including myself are worrying about here.

Then again, go bug Sony, IBM, and many other long time offenders before showing your principle to this rather small company in deep debt, first.

 

[Cyclops]

Hehe, now I know you're not a native English speaker. "Ambulance chaser" is not a term that commands respect. An ambulance chaser is what we call a lawyer that goes around looking for anyone who got injured in an accident so that they can sue someone (anyone) about it. They have no interest in the actual cases, they just want to take advantage of people's anger to make a quick buck. Examples also include those lawyers who sue Rock Star Games because kids stole cars and blamed it on Grand Theft Auto, or those guys in late night TV ads saying "Have you ever used <insert [ spam word ] here>? Studies show that you could have suffered grievious harm, and you could collect damages from <insert pharma company here>. Just send me your details and <insert law company here> will take care of it for you."

I agree, these topics are not very productive. I always tell myself I won't get drawn into them again, but I guess I'm too much of a geek

​

I am an english speaker thats why I chose those words, a lawer is very effective, and I have no doubt will get the source code. Is it the best solution? No, but its looking like the only one.

 

[Monkey]

I really can't understand why these people are immediatley jumping on GPH's back over this. It's been said that people are working on getting it released, so what's all the moaning about. The only thing I see comming from people like barak_pearlmutter is long term damage or even destrution of a community thats barely started.

Curse slashdot for bringing all these types on top of us <_<

 

[codesmith]

@Cyclops:

A lawyer who's aware of all the issues and really wants to resolve the situation (eg someone from the FSF), yes. Some yahoo that only wants to collect loads of money and screw everyone else, no.

 

[finraziel]

Too true Monkey...
They don't seem to realise that they're probably hurting their own cause either... At least, I'm not exactly moved into supporting the linux community more now with all this nastiness coming from these zealots.

 

[Cyclops]

Go ahead and play your police role, and kill the product immaturely, if that's your intention. How many GPL software actually distribute their source code the day they release the binary? Everything takes time, and it's too early to complain about it at this point. Just face the reality, and stop complaining why the world is not perfect because it ISN'T. You may be right in principle, but your principle won't go too far in real life and you may not like what it will bring to you in this case. And, that's what many people including myself are worrying about here.

Then again, go bug Sony, IBM, and many other long time offenders before showing your principle to this rather small company in deep debt, first.

​

Just checking arn't you the one who did all those translations. I believe lik-sang quote you as a reliable source

 

[codesmith]

Go ahead and play your police role, and kill the product immaturely, if that's your intention.  How many GPL software actually distribute their source code the day they release the binary?  Everything takes time, and it's too early to complain about it at this point.  Just face the reality, and stop complaining why the world is not perfect because it ISN'T.  You may be right in principle, but your principle won't go too far in real life and you may not like what it will bring to you in this case.  And, that's what many people including myself are worrying about here.

Then again, go bug Sony, IBM, and many other long time offenders before showing your principle to this rather small company in deep debt, first.

​

Just checking arn't you the one who did all those translations. I believe lik-sang quote you as a reliable source

​

Oh gawd. I just hope they don't decide DaveC is a "reliable source" too