Gph/digisys Gpl Compliance W/ 1.3.0 Firmware

[WrongEyedJesus]

If you accept and believe in the the open source principle, it would be far more healthy to decide en mass what is the best way forward.

Actually that’s not at all how I see it. I see the open source approach as those with the will and imitative attempting to tackle the problem as they sit fit. Then others will come along and join one of these “starters” whom they think is doing it the best way. Inevitably over time it is realized that one group is making better progress then the other and so people will switch sides and a defacto standard is established. Sometimes however it is realized that the different groups are actually solving subtly different problems and each group continues and comes up with an optimal solution to their particular flavor of the original problem (KDE vs. Gnome). Still other times, the groups will see that each has something to offer the other and they combine using the best ideas of both groups. Each of these paths happen all the time, and none of them are inherently any better then the others. In the Open Source world people tend to just “do” instead and I believe that this leads to a true free market of ideas. Deciding en mass ala some form of voting or committee tends to lead to a solution by compromise.

​

Point taken I did lose my way around about that point as nipped off for a coffee. The whole deal with LInux is that you can tailor it to your own needs and I agree with your sentiments. I wasn't advocating the formation of a committee I was mere trying to suggest that petty rants at each other on details is not constructive. Sorry for not making myself clear. Thanks for the clariffication.

------

And that's how easy it is everyone! B)

 

[DijiTao]

I concur on the petty ranting issue – I prefer my rants to be on topics of merit. As I see them the topics of merit are:

(1)How does the GPL licensee effect the GP2X community?
(2)What can we as a community and as individuals do to get the source code for GPL licensed software used on the GP2X released?

 

[Cyclops]

Actually that’s not at all how I see it. I see the open source approach as those with the will and imitative attempting to tackle the problem as they sit fit. Then others will come along and join one of these “starters” whom they think is doing it the best way. Inevitably over time it is realized that one group is making better progress then the other and so people will switch sides and a defacto standard is established. Sometimes however it is realized that the different groups are actually solving subtly different problems and each group continues and comes up with an optimal solution to their particular flavor of the original problem (KDE vs. Gnome). Still other times, the groups will see that each has something to offer the other and they combine using the best ideas of both groups. Each of these paths happen all the time, and none of them are inherently any better then the others. In the Open Source world people tend to just “do” instead and I believe that this leads to a true free market of ideas. Deciding en mass ala some form of voting or committee tends to lead to a solution by compromise.

I thought Wrong-eyed jesus was talking about cooperation. I tend to agree as there as been precious little communication, and I'm not talking about e-mails to korea or chat room banter. I'm talking about between the parties involved that(and that includes the 8000 customers). Craig and GPH are saying(now) they want open-source, no problem them.

You start by talking about the survival of the fitest(I can't really see why development is being discussed). If we are still talking about linux here, then your obviously missing the point of why it was chosen in the first place, to replicate its an awful lot of time and effort. I'm glad you brought up KDE vs Gnome which had nothing to do with optimal solution, or any such noncence. Gnome happened because of Licencing issues with QT *sound familier*, look it up. Again this has precious little to do with anything its linux the damn kernel. It works or it dosen't work. It works one way. I should work like linux works everywhere. Thats the whole point of it its the same! If there are differences they should be transparent!

 

[abigsmurf]

loosely on topic :

http://gplv3.fsf.org/draft

Draft of new GPL that has a blanket ban of all forms of DRM and, from the wording of the new provision, also bans software that encrypts files or secures them in any way.

Considering how much of a need for a good, interoperable DRM system there is, it strikes me as a poorly thought out decision. This draft, if implemented, will cause all linux based media devices to dry up and strongly discourage lots of companies from using the GPL...

 

[Cyclops]

loosely on topic :

http://gplv3.fsf.org/draft

Draft of new GPL that has a blanket ban of all forms of DRM and, from the wording of the new provision, also bans software that encrypts files or secures them in any way.

Considering how much of a need for a good, interoperable DRM system there is, it strikes me as a poorly thought out decision. This draft, if implemented, will cause all linux based media devices to dry up and strongly discourage lots of companies from using the GPL...

​

Apart from being happy with this, and most media devices apart from companies trying to make money from content don't care. In fact will sell better without it (think walkman). Linux itself plans to stay GPL2 and GPL3 looks a long long way away.

 

[Series-8]

Nobody can stop you from using GPL v2, which has none of those things you don't like.

If you don't like a new version of X, then don't use it... OSS can even take advantage of new developments with backports. Ever see good USB drivers for Win 3.1? nope, and you never will.

However it could be done with Kernel 2.2 (not easy, but not impossible)

 

[abigsmurf]

nothing to stop you using v2 at the moment but as time goes on it'll be harder and harder to avoid using v3 content for your device if you want full compatibility or functionality.

At a time when OSS should be encouraged it just seems bizarre to introduce something into the licence that will widen the gulf between free and commercial sotware even more

 

[Mr.Jabberwocky]

EH?

"GPL Nuts" is neither succinct or to the point. Its a label. Don't use it. It describes nobody. Everybody knows why labels are used. Its to create a *them* when there isn't a *them*. Who is at fault? people making money off linux, and you don't have to give labels to them, you know exactly who they are.

GPL is in this instance used to *force* GPH to do that they should do without a licence. Thats the point nobody cares about the licence, they care about the essence of the licence. If you don't why the hell are you even posting, and if you do your a 'GPL Nut'.

Communist is a term being increasing being used as a way of describing open source.

I'll do a quick check, has the souce been released no!, I'll check again the answer is still no! Hold on let me check again. etc etc. I'm a grown man do I need to ask permission, to complain. No. Everybody knows the situation.

Again what have the "caring individuals", "disgruntled consumers", "people who's rights have been abused", "The lied to" done.

If anyone is not saying the comments on here, on slashdot, the posts on GPH and the "e-mails" could not have been avoided simply by doing the *right thing*<---look didn't mention a licence.

I'm make it really clear the source *still* has not been released!

​

If someone refers to me as a 'GP2X nut' I know what they are referring to - my enthusiasm for the GP2x. I don't take offence. If someone uses one of your labels to describe me, how the hell am I supposed to know what they are referring to ? I have no problem using another term if you find it offensive. Just make it a meaningful one so we know whom we are talking about. How about 'GPL advocate'?

The only problem I have with some 'GPL advocates' is their tendency to pick on a small portion of a post whilst totally missing the overall point of the post. Before you know it they are back to churning out the same old argument we are now all so familiar with.

For example, I posted about the situation arising from this issue due to 'GPL advocates' rushing headlong into a confrontation without checking with those in the know. You picked up on the use of a label. You have now responded 'Eh!' , even after I have had to explain it to you line by line, and launched off into outlining the GPL situation yet again.

Again what have the "caring individuals", "disgruntled consumers", "people who's rights have been abused", "The lied to" done.

​

For the third time:
From what Craigix and DJWillis have said the actions of the 'GPL advocates' have 'shot to hell' the relationship they worked so hard to foster with the Koreans.

If you are going to respond some relevant options would be either :

Show that my understanding of the situation is wrong and Craigix and DJWillis do not feel this slashdot business was not helpful

or :

Show me how it has helped.
(That could be a bit tricky to prove. It is perfectly feasable that DJ and Craigix's efforts were about to pay off anyway and have been hampered by this. Or it could be that this was the needed catalyst. We may never know.)

or :

concede that I might have a valid point.

The point of my post was to say I get the overall impression it hampered the process and to question the scapegoating of Craigix who has done so much for this community.
Having read DJWillis' and Craigix's statements it just seemed strange to me that some of the 'GPL advocates' started attacking them rather than questioning there own actions. It comes over as if they have failed to understand the situation even after having had it explained to them.

This has nothing to do with better emulators; it has everything to do with “doing the right thing”.

​

I was just pointing out the discrepancy between idealism and harsh reality. It just seemed you had not considered the implications of your suggestion.

 

[Cyclops]

For the third time:
From what Craigix and DJWillis have said the actions of the 'GPL advocates' have 'shot to hell' the relationship they worked so hard to foster with the Koreans.

If you are going to respond some relevant options would be either :

Show that my understanding of the situation is wrong and Craigix and DJWillis do not feel this slashdot business was not helpful

or :

Show me how it has helped.
(That could be a bit tricky to prove. It is perfectly feasable that DJ and Craigix's efforts were about to pay off anyway and have been hampered by this. Or it could be that this was the needed catalyst. We may never know.)

or :

concede that I might have a valid point.

The point of my post was to say I get the overall impression it hampered the process and to question the scapegoating of Craigix who has done so much for this community.
Having read DJWillis' and Craigix's statements it just seemed strange to me that some of the 'GPL advocates' started attacking them rather than questioning there own actions. It comes over as if they have failed to understand the situation even after having had it explained to them.

[/quote]1) Timing - first complaint= incomplete source second complaint=?
2) Very little feedback apparently you have to ask :rolleyes:
3) Posts and comments made various discussions !read them!.
4) Blame of others rather than exepting any personal responsability
5) Any kind of proof rather than heresay.
6) Little Lies - Incomplete sources; Not understand GPL; Later Release; Clean up code; Bandwidth ; Inapproptite code; NDA's etc.
7) Proof of ongoing negosiations
8) Things taking more than seconds. Its the internet
9) The the post is aggresive rather than sympathetic
10) Becuase the source wasn't sent day 1
11) Scapegoating

 

[furikuri]

Show me how it has helped.
(That could be a bit tricky to prove. It is perfectly feasable that DJ and Craigix's efforts were about to pay off anyway and have been hampered by this. Or it could be that this was the needed catalyst. We may never know.)

Before anyone tries to show how it helped, make sure to read through this topic thoroughly: [rant] Why Isn't Gph Embracing The Dev Community?

 

[bjimba]

4) Blame of others rather than exepting any personal responsability

Bingo. The biggest problem I have with this whole situation is that no vendor of the GP2X has said "We're sorry for having sold an unlicensed product, and promise to rectify the situation for our paying customers." Dignsys is in the wrong, but so is GPH and so are the vendors. (I don't just single out Craig because I didn't buy my GP2X from him.) GPH should not have paid Dignsys until the licensing was worked out correctly. GPH should not have shipped before the licensing was worked out correctly. The vendors should not have shipped until the licensing was worked out correctly.

No rights are granted by the GPL unless there is compliance to the terms. In particular, one should understand the meaning of the word "accompany".

Jabberwocky has an excellent graphic in his sig, regarding Against-TCPA, with the slogan "Don't let them take your rights." It applies in many cases, including the GP2X. My right as a purchaser is to have a licensed product. This could mean a GPL release, or not. But as it stands currently, I don't have a licensed product.

Oh, and Jabberwocky, I do understand your position. The fact that I don't agree with you does NOT mean I don't understand you. The possibility exists that I may have a valid point or two as well.

 

[DijiTao]

You start by talking about the survival of the fitest(I can't really see why development is being discussed).

Just applying the development approach of OSS to other ideas, don’t blame me WEJ brought it up first. 

If we are still talking about linux here, then your obviously missing the point of why it was chosen in the first place, to replicate its an awful lot of time and effort.

I disagree, if Linux was chosen solely because replicating it’s functionality would take an awful long time, then why wasn’t a BSD adapted to the GP2X instead of Linux? Using a BSD would have saved them an awful lot of licensing headaches don’t you think? I think Linux simply made for better advertising. Linux is a much “sexier” word then BSD in terms of public perception. Additionally it didn’t hurt that Linux was already adapted to the MagicEyes SOC. The other way of looking at it is that Linux wasn’t so much chosen as Windows Mobile was rejected.

I'm glad you brought up KDE vs Gnome which had nothing to do with optimal solution, or any such noncence. Gnome happened because of Licencing issues with QT *sound familier*, look it up. Again this has precious little to do with anything its linux the damn kernel

Agreed, I understand that the Gnome/KDE issue started off due to licensing, but surely you can see today that the two of them aren’t even close to aiming for the same target anymore. These days there are major philosophical differences between the two camps that are far deeper then licensing. I mean just look at this gem of a quote from Linus:

http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_ar...ber/000390.html

(On an aside I personally prefer Gnome)

It works or it dosen't work. It works one way. I should work like linux works everywhere. Thats the whole point of it its the same! If there are differences they should be transparent!

 

[Mr.Jabberwocky]

Oh, and Jabberwocky, I do understand your position. The fact that I don't agree with you does NOT mean I don't understand you. The possibility exists that I may have a valid point or two as well.

​

I wouldn't call it a position, just an observation. Craigix and DJWillis have said the actions of the 'GPL advocates' have 'shot to hell' the relationship they worked so hard to foster with the Koreans when compliance was 'just days away'.

They are the ones on the front line. They are both longstanding members of this community. Without Craigix we wouldn't be discussing this. I trust him and believe he was trying to resolve this with the least possible damage all round.

I can understand the irritation that shows through on his website.

Suppose your research had included a quick e-mail to him and/or DJWillis. If they had said "give us a week, we will have compliance and a good working relationship" would you have still proceeded with stirring this up ?

As it is, we still get compliance, but it has been tainted by what appears to have been this unnecessary furore.

What do you not agree with ?

 

[abigsmurf]

I can understand the irritation that shows through on his website.

​

I can only imagine how many phonecalls he got about this.

At stupid hours too thanks to the international nature of /.

 

[Cyclops]

Just applying the development approach of OSS to other ideas, don’t blame me WEJ brought it up first.

I disagree, if Linux was chosen solely because replicating it’s functionality would take an awful long time, then why wasn’t a BSD adapted to the GP2X instead of Linux? Using a BSD would have saved them an awful lot of licensing headaches don’t you think? I think Linux simply made for better advertising. Linux is a much “sexier” word then BSD in terms of public perception. Additionally it didn’t hurt that Linux was already adapted to the MagicEyes SOC. The other way of looking at it is that Linux wasn’t so much chosen as Windows Mobile was rejected.

Agreed, I understand that the Gnome/KDE issue started off due to licensing, but surely you can see today that the two of them aren’t even close to aiming for the same target anymore. These days there are major philosophical differences between the two camps that are far deeper then licensing. I mean just look at this gem of a quote from Linus:

I don't think WEJ was refering to a development approch. He was saying all stakeholders, should decide on a sensible rational way forward rather that just getting each others backs up, and he's right, do I belive everyone is honest open and trustwothy, no. When people belive that the time for negociation have long since past.

The reality is only GPH building bridges, because I suspect they are the only ones that can make it happen, but from Craigs letter I see that GPH are going to dig their heels in, something I find sad and bizzare, and I happily blame the anyone between the customers and them, that it reached this stage where they belived they had to go to company off their own backs.

Linux was chosen because it was the most easy/free end-of

off-topic
The differences between KDE/Gnome stipping off the programs is surprisingly dull, or even windows for that matter. I've never known anyone to notice much of a difference in using any of them. I use XFCE becuase I don't use any of the differences between the two, XFCE does nothing thats what I want. dull I havn't even changed the background. I've never understood the arguments between KDE/GNOME or even any fanatism between ditribuitions to me they are all the same.

Linux is just the kernel. It should *work* the same way whatever device its run on. Or are you talking about that menu, because I can't believe you could be talking about anything else?? replacing sys-v-init. I dunno

 

[DijiTao]

Sometimes the words you type come acrossed jumbled. But yes, of course Linux is just the kernel, and it should work the same way on any piece of hardware -- I'm just not sure what point you were trying to make.

 

[Cyclops]

you posted vermin

 

[Hanz™]

So what is the status, why have we still got no source?

 

[Mr.Jabberwocky]

Sometimes the words you type come acrossed jumbled. But yes, of course Linux is just the kernel, and it should work the same way on any piece of hardware -- I'm just not sure what point you were trying to make.

​

Don't worry. I think Cyclops is a bot. It randomly selects someones post and then pastes something totally unrelated to it underneath. Had me fooled earlier.

 

[DijiTao]

We were told the release would be some time this week. I will be quite upset if we see the 1.3.0 firmware binaries without a source release.