Going off to University and seeking your advice :D

[zonova]

Hey everyone! I'm a graduating senior in the US, going off to college in the next month. Unfortunately, college is looking to cost be around 20k a year, which is just.... yikes. I'm planning on majoring in physics and going for a PhD, but I don't think I can handle that sort of debt. Here comes the part where I need advice. I took german for 3 years in highschool, so I speak fairly well conversationally. I've been looking into colleges in germany and they seem very cool! I did some research and it seems that LMU Munich and TU Munich are both very well rated for their research(which doesn't matter much for undergrad I suppose) but they also seem to be well rated for their support of international students! However, I read online that Munich is very expensive and that it would be a bad idea to go there for undergrad if my objective is to save money. The problem is, I don't really know of other universities in germany that are both good with physics, well recognized, and good for international students. Would any of you Deutschland dwellers have some advice for this auslander?

Oh and I guess another problem I'll have will be with my first year of residence. I plan on doing an intensive german language course the first year, so ideally I would live in as cheap a city I can find that offers such a course, but the best I seem to be able to find is stuff offered by the Goethe Institute. Would you guys know of cheaper alternatives for this as well? Thanks!

 

[_jr_]

German courses are offered everywhere, a basic course (the 'integration course') is even state subsided for everyone with a residence permit of at least one year, but since this only goes to B1 (s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_Reference_for_Languages) you've probaly already outgrown it, though getting the certificate for these courses can help with bureaucracy.

Some universities might demand fees (around 500 EUR per semester, I think), some might only demand these from foreigners.

I would have recommended Kiel (majored in cs there with physics minor), but it seems like they've severly butchered physics up there in a misguided attempt to reduce costs shortly after I left (decades ago, actually; don't know the current situation).

But for the first few years it is probably irrelevant where you are studying and you can taje any city you like, e.g. from this list: http://studienfuehrer.physnet.uni-hamburg.de/wiki/Kategorie:Hochschule

In general smaller cities in the north and/or east are cheaper. I guess that makes Greifswald most attractive from a pure cost of living perspective. Actually I've heard good things about Greifswald, too. Unfortunately the eastern part of Germany currently is somewhat xenophobic, so you better be a white caucasian.

If you prefer a large anglophone community, I can recommend Nuremberg (am currently living there). Quite cheap and international due to major US military installations (now mostly deserted, but a lot of them chose to stay) and large industrial base (now also mostly shut down, but people are innovative) with a lot of cheap foreign labor (mostly from Turkey, but also many other nationalities).

Also note that Germany is still recovering from the shock of the late 20th century 'Bologna process' that majorly reshaped university level education to become more compatible with the rest of the world. I think it is getting better, but it will probably take some more years to heal all the wounds.

There are probably other alternatives, but despite all the caveats Germany really isn't a bad choice. Could be better without all these Germans, though

 

[Ziz]

Dresden is quite cheap (like the rest of east germany) and afaik is the physics education good, too. Furthermore you pay only ~250€ per semester - public trafic ticket included. Took a look here: www.tu-dresden.de

 

[zonova]

Ahh, cool, nice list! So would you guys also recommend I stay away from Munich for a bachelors degree? The thing that worries me about getting into the East is again whether or not they have good support for internationals. For example, I know that TU and LMU Munich offer "buddy programs" for non-germans, and also have a rather large portion of their students being from outside germany (around 15% I believe).

Now that you mention it, it seems important to mention that I am Pakistani. Although I've lived in the US my entire life, my skin color is still that of a Pakistani. Would that change your recommendations at all?

 

[fusion_power]

Good decision to choose a german University over these US "Liabilities-Maker" Universities. ^^

I can not recommend a certain Uni but I often visit Jena, THE University-Town here in Thuringia I would say (since 1558 wiki says). You basicly see mostly students on the streets, also alot from all around the world (alot of cute student girls! ).  In Jena sits also the Carl Zeiss Company and there you can also find the famous Planetarium, the first one. Jena City has everything you need in short range (I always eat marvelous there). However, Jena may not have the ceapest rents, at least not in the City. 

http://www.physik.uni-jena.de/en/Homepage.html

Dresden is quite cheap (like the rest of east germany) and afaik is the physics education good, too. Furthermore you pay only ~250€ per month - public trafic ticket included. Took a look here: www.tu-dresden.de

For east germany standards, Dresden may not be so cheap actualy.  However, it's a beautiful town.

Now that you mention it, it seems important to mention that I am Pakistani. Although I've lived in the US my entire life, my skin color is still that of a Pakistani. Would that change your recommendations at all?

Don't believe everything some people say, germany is not more "xenophobic" than other countries in the world, even less I would say. The only difference is, when something happens in germany it goes around in the News much quicker than in other countries because we seems to be still "under special observation".

 

[zonova]

I see, Jena sounds nice! I'll have to look more specifically into the cheapest university cities and see what I come up with. I found this website:

http://www.wg-gesucht.de/

And it seems to have even rooms in Munich starting at 200 euros. Is it a ripoff or am I reading it incorrectly? Because the deal seems to be too good...

So, in your opinion, do you think that TU Munich and LMU Munich, or any of the other "Elite" ranked universities in Germany, are better than the other Unis for undergrad? Or are they all about the same? I guess what I'm saying is, if I Am able to find a cheap room in Munich, do you think I should take the opportunity to go to those schools because they're better? Or would you still say that the other schools are just as good options? It's very different in the US, it seems, because I think there's definitely quite a bit of a hierarchy here in terms of what college you attend.

 

[rygD]

Am I understanding correctly that the cost for a formal education is fairly inexpensive in some places?  Why is this not universal?

 

[thatgui]

Don't believe everything some people say, germany is not more "xenophobic" than other countries in the world, even less I would say. The only difference is, when something happens in germany it goes around in the News much quicker than in other countries because we seems to be still "under special observation".

agreed

I see, Jena sounds nice! I'll have to look more specifically into the cheapest university cities and see what I come up with. I found this website:

Jena is a mixed bag of sorts, while it is indeed a great city to study in, its mostly a student city, so finding an affordable place and maybe a student job is difficult.

http://www.wg-gesucht.de/

And it seems to have even rooms in Munich starting at 200 euros. Is it a ripoff or am I reading it incorrectly? Because the deal seems to be too good...

If you don't have a lot of money, forget about Munich, its one of the most expensive citys in germany to live in. If you still want to go there (for whatever reasons), be very carefull with such "deals" there is a lot of fraud going on currently. Very often people (not only foreigners) find themselfs standing in front of a commercial building, with their luggage in one hand, a worthless contract in the other, and with a bank account that is several hundred euros "lighter".

So, in your opinion, do you think that TU Munich and LMU Munich, or any of the other "Elite" ranked universities in Germany, are better than the other Unis for undergrad? Or are they all about the same? I guess what I'm saying is, if I Am able to find a cheap room in Munich, do you think I should take the opportunity to go to those schools because they're better? Or would you still say that the other schools are just as good options? It's very different in the US, it seems, because I think there's definitely quite a bit of a hierarchy here in terms of what college you attend.

While some universities have built up some sort of reputation in Germany, there isn't any particular hierarchy.
What about Karlsruhe ? It lies in the second most prosperous state, has a very good infrastructure, isn't the most expensive place to live in, and France and Switzerland are more or less a stone throw away, and is a good starting point if you want to explore the mediterranean parts of Europe. Or going a little deeper into the south, Freiburg could also be an option.

If you want to study in a more "international" environment, I guess nothing tops Berlin.

Am I understanding correctly that the cost for a formal education is fairly inexpensive in some places?  Why is this not universal?

In Germany the federal states have educational sovereignty

 

[Ziz]

Dresden is quite cheap (like the rest of east germany) and afaik is the physics education good, too. Furthermore you pay only ~250€ per month - public trafic ticket included. Took a look here: www.tu-dresden.de

 For east germany standards, Dresden may not be so cheap actualy.  However, it's a beautiful town.

Err... 250€ per Semester, not per Month...

 

[rygD]

Dresden is quite cheap (like the rest of east germany) and afaik is the physics education good, too. Furthermore you pay only ~250€ per month - public trafic ticket included. Took a look here: www.tu-dresden.de

 
For east germany standards, Dresden may not be so cheap actualy.  However, it's a beautiful town.

Err... 250€ per Semester, not per Month...

wow...250 a month isn't even that much

 

[elwing]

well, seeing it's around 700$ a semester here is switzerland in EPFL, 340$ a month is quite costly...

 

[Ziz]

Yes. Even the very expensive universities in germany cost maybe 900€ per semester, which are "only" ~150€ per month. But of course living, internet and food not included. In germany our parents are forced to support us or (if they can't, not if they don't want) the state itself.

So if you think on a whole bachelor studium with 6 semesters, which are 36 months, with 20k$ you would have ~555$ per month, which are only 410€. I tried to live with suge an amount of money, but it is hard if not impossible...

 

[elwing]

definately, here with 1400 anual fees the "typical budget" (which I think is quite low) is around 22k$ a year...

 

[rygD]

I just checked the cost per semester at the public university here.  $7,600.  Around double that for the private university, and even more if you aren't commuting.

 

[Ziz]

I just checked the cost per semester at the public university here.  $7,600.  Around double that for the private university, and even more if you aren't commuting.

Something went quite wrong in your country at some point in history. O_O

 

[TrashyMG]

I just checked the cost per semester at the public university here.  $7,600.  Around double that for the private university, and even more if you aren't commuting.

I just dropped $3680.00 USD for two 3-credit courses at the college I'm attending. That's only two courses, how many classes do full-time students take at once a semester?

 

[Granitehead]

I'm thinking about studying at ETHZ (will have to decide in the next 6 months or so), and in itself that wouldn't cost me a fortune either, probably similar to the number cited for EPFL.

The real cost is for living, I need to look into this; quite possibly I would just stay with my parents and use public transport to travel to Zurich each day, which is pretty affordable (in relation to the average income), fast and reliable here in Switzerland.

I think it's easily possible that fucking xenophobic law which was passed recently (fucking idiots. I guess personally voting against it wasn't enough, I should have done more) will be abandoned (by another public vote, there is no other way) before it comes into effect, but I guess for now Switzerland isn't the ideal target destination.

But the reason I really wanted to post: Yes. It's really fucked up how much education costs in some countries.

 

[_jr_]

Education cost is a nontrivial subject. For German university level education it has been shown that - because (in Germany) only a small percentage of an age group actually goes to university and additionaly there exists a strong correlation between education level/income of parents and the chance of attending university (this correlation already affects choice of schools) - the tax based funding is actually moving money and education opportunities from poorer/less educated to richer/better educated families, cementing the status quo. Since intelligence seems to be not inheritable, this is probably economically unsound. I was among the lucky ones benefiting from this and am quite happy about that, but I can see how other countries opt for primarily privately funded education where society/government only fund the smartest 10% or something. This is not neccessarily less 'fair' (however fair has to be defined).


Funny anecdote: once at a conference (nearly 20 years ago) I was talking to a Norwegian PhD student that was complaining that in Norway not only was university education completely free of charge, but also everybody who wanted to be a student did also get a grant to cover the cost of living (I think as cheap loan). In his opinion this did attract loafers and dumbed down education for everybody.

 

[fusion_power]

Dresden is quite cheap (like the rest of east germany) and afaik is the physics education good, too. Furthermore you pay only ~250€ per month - public trafic ticket included. Took a look here: www.tu-dresden.de

 
For east germany standards, Dresden may not be so cheap actualy.  However, it's a beautiful town.

Err... 250€ per Semester, not per Month...

OK, sounds much better, but Dresden as City to live in may not be that cheap compared to other regions here. However, it's cheaper there to live than in Munich for sure.

To throw in another Name, I've heared that Trier is also a well known University-City but I never visited this Town.

 

[Granitehead]

Education cost is a nontrivial subject. For German university level education it has been shown that - because (in Germany) only a small percentage of an age group actually goes to university and additionaly there exists a strong correlation between education level/income of parents and the chance of attending university (this correlation already affects choice of schools) - the tax based funding is actually moving money and education opportunities from poorer/less educated to richer/better educated families, cementing the status quo. Since intelligence seems to be not inheritable, this is probably economically unsound. I was among the lucky ones benefiting from this and am quite happy about that, but I can see how other countries opt for primarily privately funded education where society/government only fund the smartest 10% or something. This is not neccessarily less 'fair' (however fair has to be defined). Funny anecdote: once at a conference (nearly 20 years ago) I was talking to a Norwegian PhD student that was complaining that in Norway not only was university education completely free of charge, but also everybody who wanted to be a student did also get a grant to cover the cost of living (I think as cheap loan). In his opinion this did attract loafers and dumbed down education for everybody.

I would argue that the problem to solve is that correlation between parent income and education of children and not that of free education.And then of course it would be stupid to pay for the university places or even the cost of living of people who aren't smart enough or don't work enough for it - I would probably bind it to passing the exams and make the exams fair but hard (not just hard on purpose, but as hard as they need to be so you can ensure as many capable people and as few incapable people as possible pass).

(concerning the cost of living during university: I'm for a basic income anyways. A low one, shouldn't get too comfortable like that, but you should be able to have a free live {i.e. no one tells you what to spend your money on}. Say a small cheap flat, food, public transport, the basics, but not more than that)