Geometry Wars Port?

[torpor]

Rendered sprites would be okay, but it'd be nicer to have a little 3D modelling going on, because even though the gameplay is all 2D - the camera position might be fixed (unless we find a good reason to move it around) - it would still be nice to have things like lighting and shadows going on .. I mean, we can produce a 2D-style gameplay, but still have nice things like 3D models rotating, producing shadows, light effects, etc.

What would be ideal is if someone sat down with a 3D modeller, put the camera at the top looking down, and started creating a mockup of what a new-gen GW-style game for the Pandora could look like, with 3D features in mind, but with the requirement that things still play pretty well as a 2D game, such as the GW engine provides.

Just create a big plane, and start putting some models all over it that demo the GW game scene .. that would help a lot.

 

[Monk]

OK, well I've just been over to binaryzoo.com and I obviously need to stop talking about Echoes now tha tEchoes+ is out on XBox live (sob).

But I digress - OK, interesting. As usual what I'd be most likely to be able to help with isn't the BEST way to go forward, so I'll have to sit and think about whether I've got Hexagon or somehting installed on my notebook (main PC is down the crapper at the moment) and whether I could devote the time... I agree - though it's less likely I could help - that real 3D models would be nicer. even if we could have an option to turn the textures off and have a hidden-line-wireframe-with-glow effect for me, it'd still be kind interesting to have things like asteroids being able to tumble around another axis, so that the outline changes shape not just orientation.

I've got to wrap my head around what software I have (or am willing to make) installed conveniently, and how much time I could devite, AND if we're to go with 3D models some idea of a poly or vertex count per model would be useful... hmmm... I may need to set up one of those myriad "free picture storage" accounts. Let me know if anyone knows of one that is the least aggro/most help as IIRC you can't upload images to this forum (shame! SHAME!).

Oooh - here's an idea. Rotating your spacecraft about the unusual axis results in different weapons coming to the top/fore (however you want to phrase it). Even if I don't get invovled graphically, I've got to keep an eye on this project I think (and would I be right in thinking that a 2D "slice" below the playing field could be used as a flat "mat" to be deformed in 3D, producing GridWars-alike effects very "cheaply"?

So - Hexagon, or LighWave or... what have I got installed RIGHT NOW?

 

[Monk]

Ooooh, I think a rather simple version of the possibilities just "clicked" with me:

Primitive Hostility : Simplistic 3D (PHS 3D)

I must have at LEAST Cinema4D installed on something, so for the moment, count me in on at least trying to produce a few primitive (and I mean PRIMITIVE) models and renders to show a playing field.

Anyone with good suggestions for storing PNG and, ideally, either AVI or GIF files for display here please pipe up (I don't want to use my YouTube account for animations here).


ta

 

[Monk]

So...here's a test, both of 3D and of image hosting. A bunch of seriously primitive primitives floating above a second 2D slice to contain a background. Shot at an angle to emphasise 3D a bit and also to show the plane (currently smaller than you would want to also facilitate the process). More thoughts if this works, and after I've eaten something.

 

[ldesnogu]

This is becoming interesting What about starting a thread in the Dev part of the forum?

 

[torpor]

Yeah Monk, thats more like it!

Now get rid of those primitives and make some real baddies, some real goodies, some real yummies, some real 'splosions, and so on .. Keep the vertex count down, add some textures, then send me the files ..

It would be good if you could work out how to export the models to vertex/texture arrays, too, btw. When I get home tonight I'll dig into the engine a bit and write up an explanation of the format required - right now its just play vertex and texture arrays, though.

 

[Monk]

I think I'm going to have to stick to concepts for the moment due to various constraints, but I've a bunch of thoughts about setting up standards so we can get multiple people involved (I am assuming someone will leap in during the coming hours/days/weeks while this comes together, but I can plod along as time makes itself available). I've got a funeral and surgery to cope with, both looming large on my schedule.

Which reminds me - I should be talking about that funeral with my sister. But here's some thoughts:

1. Use the .OBJ file format. This is a text-based format which is extremely simple to understand and can probably be turned into arrays using a simple text editor quite quickly.
2. Set a scale for the models - a good idea anyway so we're working to the same scale, but essential if we get multiple people designing models (and I'm thinking of ones inspired by numerous old games and films - like Asteroids, Tron, The Black Hole and the like.
3. Depending on how your engine works, we may even need to define which winding to use to denote which side of a surface is "visible" / "outside"?

So a scale - even if it's <-1,-1,-1> to <1,1,1> as the basic size of an average entity (with bigger baddies up to say <-3,-3,-3> to ,3,3> and bullets at maybe <-0.1,-0.1,-0.1> to <0.1,0.1,0.1> or some such borrocks. Probably even smaller now I think about it... would be useful. I just like having a consisten scale to work to, I guess.

3. Maybe we should take the advice and move to the Dev forum? We could do with someone working on sounds, for sure... or even just searching the net for free 3D meshes and sounds (ones which don't need a mention or royalty or anything?).

Now - to the batphone

 

[zhasha]

1. Use the .OBJ file format. This is a text-based format which is extremely simple to understand and can probably be turned into arrays using a simple text editor quite quickly.
2. Set a scale for the models - a good idea anyway so we're working to the same scale, but essential if we get multiple people designing models (and I'm thinking of ones inspired by numerous old games and films - like Asteroids, Tron, The Black Hole and the like.
3. Depending on how your engine works, we may even need to define which winding to use to denote which side of a surface is "visible" / "outside"?

Why 3D? Why not 2D, if this is a port we should adhere to the scheme of the original game. Come to think of it, it looks like most the enemies and whatnot is drawn with lines and bezier curves. So maybe something like this would be in order?

EDIT: By no means does this mean we should use cairo or any other 2D framework, just that we should draw everything in 2D space

 

[torpor]

Well, I have a 3D game engine that could very easily be used for this project.

Also, if we do it in 'minimal 3D artwork', we can easily turn on interesting retro effects like wireframe shading, and so on ..

 

[Monk]

Why 3D? Why not 2D, if this is a port we should adhere to the scheme of the original game. Come to think of it, it looks like most the enemies and whatnot is drawn with lines and bezier curves. So maybe something like this would be in order?

It's not a port (which would probably appeal to me more, but also leave me with nothing to offer by way of assistance - not even the simple fumbling around graphically that I'm doing now would be necessary) but more of an "inspired by". Personally I'd love to see a more direct port of GridWars or Echoes (or both!) but I'm also slightly intruiged by the idea of making it more a 2.5D game. Time is running away at the moment, but I hope to post a bit more later. Please PLEASE anyone with ideas don't look at what I've done and assume you can't do better - you can... and I'm sure it would be appreciated.

 

[Vorporeal]

I'd suggest making the models REALLY low-poly. Like, 10-20 tris kinda low poly. 50 max? There's a lot you can do with just a few triangles, especially if you're thinking of keeping the retro look. Wireframe-style rendering is your friend. So are awesome shaders and crazy lighting/particle effects. Too bad your engine's only GLES 1.1, I guess.

 

[zhasha]

Too bad your engine's only GLES 1.1, I guess.

On that note: do we even have a GLES 1.1 driver?
GLES 2.0 is NOT backwards compatible.

 

[torpor]

I was under the impression (Based on beagle and touchbook experience) that we'll have both GLES 1.1 and GLES 2.0 onboard. But I'm not sure .. can anyone else answer this question? BTW, I have a GLES 2.0 engine too, its not a problem but for us I think GLES1.1 should be more than enough.

And yes, I think calling it a "2.5D inspired by" GW-style game would be accurate.

 

[JayFoxRox]

Atleast gles1test1 works on my beagleboard, but I remember reading that the support was bad for it.

 

[rabidpoobear]

I was under the impression (Based on beagle and touchbook experience) that we'll have both GLES 1.1 and GLES 2.0 onboard. But I'm not sure .. can anyone else answer this question? BTW, I have a GLES 2.0 engine too, its not a problem but for us I think GLES1.1 should be more than enough.

And yes, I think calling it a "2.5D inspired by" GW-style game would be accurate.

Isn't gles1.1 fixed-pipeline? Don't you lose shader access then?

 

[JayFoxRox]

yes you do, but who needs shaders for a game like this?

 

[Monk]

I'd suggest making the models REALLY low-poly. Like, 10-20 tris kinda low poly. 50 max? There's a lot you can do with just a few triangles, especially if you're thinking of keeping the retro look. Wireframe-style rendering is your friend. So are awesome shaders and crazy lighting/particle effects. Too bad your engine's only GLES 1.1, I guess.

Thanks for that, which gives me something to aim for. I just don't have the skill, time, or inclination to be aiming at doing all the models for a design along THESE lines:

Which also shows an attempt at modifying the underlying galaxy plane. hmmm... a bit crap, actually

Ah...torpor, that reminds me. Would you want tris or can we use nGons - my preference would be for a mixture of tris and quads, but it should be possible to use just tris if needed.

 

[Jan-Nik]

yes you do, but who needs shaders for a game like this?

e.g. glow

 

[Near_Kstor]

Why 3D? Why not 2D, if this is a port we should adhere to the scheme of the original game. Come to think of it, it looks like most the enemies and whatnot is drawn with lines and bezier curves. So maybe something like this would be in order?

Well, for me it doesn't look that hard to have both in the same game.
On Game Mode 2.5D, we get our 'bit angular' view, following those basic models made by Monk
On Game Mode 2D, we get the camera right above the mat, and PERHAPS (not sure is opengles supports it), render everything with Cel Shader


Think it is possible, torpor?

 

[Yoyobuae]

yes you do, but who needs shaders for a game like this?

e.g. glow

Ooh, glow:

One thing that worries me about doing it with a 3D engine is the performance limits. Things get really hectic once the game advances past 10 mins or so.