Eta On 2Nd Batch?

[TheRain]

I never claimed to be a business expert.

I'm 99% certain though that in this case if you asked ten experts in the industry they would all agree with me.

Yah, I would doubt that's the case. I think it's a good move to delay production of the 2nd batch. A lot of the quality developers in the community are first batchers and it will give them time to build up a solid base of software that's not just junk, and have it used and tested. I would wager that a large percentage of the 1st batchers are at least fairly savvy users, and many are probably developers and hackers. With the 2nd batch and onwards we'll probably be seeing that percentage go down dramatically. So this is a great time to get the software base up and solid, and I think this plan will work well.

 

[Pleng]

you're not an expert in all areas of business, but you are an expert in this specific area of business?

I don't see why I'm dignifying this with an answer. I did not say that I was an expert in any area. I happen to believe that I am right on one particular situation. I have so much faith in my being correct that I'd bet money on industry experts agreeing with me.

That does not make me an expert. Just somebody who has a strong belief on this particular point. Have you never listened to somebody speak, or read something with which you strongly disagree, despite not being an expert in the field?

Anyway the big story is not my apparent claim to business expertise. The point is that Craig plans to take a break, building the community without producing any further hardware for a few months. Do you feel this is a good idea?

 

[tristan.clark]

Taking a rest or delaying the second batch doesn't necessarily mean doing nothing in the mean time. Its still going to take time to source parts and to book time with the factories involved etc.

Don't forget there is the 'thanks giving' (in the US), Christmas and New Year, Chinese New Year holidays. More of a road block than a possible 8 day delay. Makes sense to let it pass then do the second batch.

I suspect that even if Craig and the gang wanted to do the second batch immediately they couldn't

 

[MDave]

I get the strong impression Craig was being sarcastic.

 

[tristan.clark]

I get the strong impression Craig was being sarcastic.

Certainly got that impression from his second post.

 

[trendy]

I also agree with craigix. He made insignificant mistakes in the long run. The purpose is to build a community. I didn't hear someone claiming he/she will live off of pandora sales until it becomes an oldie.

This isn't about selling as much as possible. It's about just having a portable that doesn't stop you from your enjoyment due to manufacturer lack of resources to make it better.
This is a community business - how come there are still discussions about this?

The break will be good. It will allow to make a real community, not software thrown in one place. Most people that aren't ordering now only care about what software will be available for it. They will have more incentive to buy it.
Why do you think what you say is better? In the real world, lack of software on good hardware is worst than having software on crappy hardware. Why do you think companies like Microsoft or Cisco are the best to people that don't know much? Why would some customers that won't be able to do much for the community have so much value? Will craigix die of hunger,lose his home or cry all day if he will not sell more pandoras? Someone else in the team? Someone on the forum?

Interested people talk on usability and specs related to real world. Stop acting like you came from a commercial.

RTFP before complaining! The purpose it's community. The rest are optional features and bugs.

If I had been on the project I would have make it clear and when it was going in another direction I'd spam the idea until most will start complaining about spam and stop it.

[just to have some enjoyment out of all of this]
Well craigix finally realized that if you want to scam people, you first have to give them something of great quality and then make sure it's scarce. He still have a lot to go through until he puts monopolies like Microsoft and OPEC in oblivion. He's still a noob in making planetary crisis, but for now it's going well.
Expect that pandora3 will skyrocket beyond transactions being secured with private mercenaries.
Don't let yourself fooled by the innocent look of it, you don't have any idea what planning it's behind this. You could tremble for the rest of your life or just live with it. What's gonna be, pandoracruit? How many batches do you think you can last?
ps: on the 3rd batch of pandora4 it will be the end of all lifeforms in this galaxy. -Pandoramus,2009
[/just to have some enjoyment out of all of this]

 

[Asmo]

Maybe some of this 'downtime' is needed to establish a working Credit Card ordering facility.

 

[lulzfish]

The break will be good. It will allow to make a real community, not software thrown in one place. Most people that aren't ordering now only care about what software will be available for it. They will have more incentive to buy it.

I couldn't think of a good way to put this, so I've made a little skit instead:

A developer signing up for a second-batch Pandora:

"I have here a nice computer, but you can't buy it until I write some software for it."
"Well, can I just keep it on my mantle until the software is ready?"
"No! I must develop organized software BEFORE I sell it, to build incentive."
"But I already want to buy it. I'll even help you with the software."
"No you won't, you want my software, and you can't want the hardware until my software is done. Now go away."
":/"

Correspondingly, an end-user:

"Is there good software for your hardware yet?"
"Almost."
"Well then I'm going to wait to buy it regardless of whether you're selling it or not."
"Yeah, right now we're selling as-is, there will be more software later."
OR
"We're only letting a few people work on the software, and we won't sell more until they're done, not even to people who already want to buy it."

I can understand delaying it to find hardware / firmware bugs that need developer-side testing, but it seems like you want the 2nd batch delayed for user-installable software, which will only reduce the number of potential developers and users who have a working but softwareless Pandora.

I don't get it.

 

[craigix]

Taking a rest or delaying the second batch doesn't necessarily mean doing nothing in the mean time. Its still going to take time to source parts and to book time with the factories involved etc.

Don't forget there is the 'thanks giving' (in the US), Christmas and New Year, Chinese New Year holidays. More of a road block than a possible 8 day delay. Makes sense to let it pass then do the second batch.

I suspect that even if Craig and the gang wanted to do the second batch immediately they couldn't

^ This is someone that understands manufacturing.

 

[craigix]

The break will be good. It will allow to make a real community, not software thrown in one place. Most people that aren't ordering now only care about what software will be available for it. They will have more incentive to buy it.

I couldn't think of a good way to put this, so I've made a little skit instead:

A developer signing up for a second-batch Pandora:

"I have here a nice computer, but you can't buy it until I write some software for it."
"Well, can I just keep it on my mantle until the software is ready?"
"No! I must develop organized software BEFORE I sell it, to build incentive."
"But I already want to buy it. I'll even help you with the software."
"No you won't, you want my software, and you can't want the hardware until my software is done. Now go away."
":/"

Correspondingly, an end-user:

"Is there good software for your hardware yet?"
"Almost."
"Well then I'm going to wait to buy it regardless of whether you're selling it or not."
"Yeah, right now we're selling as-is, there will be more software later."
OR
"We're only letting a few people work on the software, and we won't sell more until they're done, not even to people who already want to buy it."

I can understand delaying it to find hardware / firmware bugs that need developer-side testing, but it seems like you want the 2nd batch delayed for user-installable software, which will only reduce the number of potential developers and users who have a working but softwareless Pandora.

I don't get it.

This is an utterly preposterous post.

Let me edit:

"But I already want to buy it. I'll even help you with the software."
"Great, you can either order one now, and you will get it when we do the second run, or leave us your details and we will email you later."
""

There, that removes you unnecessary silliness.

 

[SNESFAN]

I never claimed to be a business expert.

I'm 99% certain though that in this case if you asked ten experts in the industry they would all agree with me.

"Sixty percent of the time, it works every time"

 

[lulzfish]

Good, I didn't think there was a plan to delay it for no reason. Getting parts and fixing bugs is a great reason, developing software is not.

 

[Monk]

The second batch will be in 2010 sometime, we will, quite rightly, be having a bit of a rest after this run is finished.

But everything will be in place to run a second batch off in 2010, I should think we will wait a few months at least before doing it. That's probably when the ebay value of a Pandora will sky rocket!

In the few months gap we will be looking after the current customers, getting the scene going, having a coding competition, things like that, well I suppose just sort of hanging out with you on here making the Pandora awesome.

Pleng, I think what tickled Craig's funnybone was the apparent arrogance of the phrase, exactly as he quoted it. I'm not saying that he necessarily thought that YOU were that arrogant, just that taken out of context it's a pretty good summary of various attitudes that have been displayed on the net and even on these forums, at times.

Given that he runs a (presumably successful) business, he is of course a form of industry expert himself. Having witnessed GP2X (and specifically Wiz) sales (perhaps along with PS3 and so on) when hardware is in limited supply... well, personally I agree with you that by itself it seems a brave route to take, but he may well feel he has enough data to suggest it would be a good one.

I'd like to point out another angle. Supposedly although our money paid for the first batch to be made, it didn't pay so much that OpenPandora re going to be rolling about in money shouting "I'm rich! Rich I tell you!". So they probably don't actually HAVE enough money to start producing a second batch without preorders coming in - and those preorders will take SOME time (even if only because the rush causes The Internet to fall over like the whole thing is suffering a DOS attack). Even if they did have the cash - would YOU blow it on a second batch without knowing that there would be enough customers to buy them all?

The cases will be bought and paid for from the first bathc and-crucially-already manufactured. So on eof the big pain-in-the-behinds should be truly behind us, and once they either have enough cash from preorders or at least enough confidence to plow some of their cash in to make up the shortfall, they can start a second batch - and that batch should be shipping to customers a matter of weeks later, not months or ahem "let's not go THERE!".

So while I suspect they'd LOVE to see Pandoras going for a gazillion quid on eBay, I suspect there are other motives in addition to ego behind the idea to "take a break" - and what better way to take a break from manufacturing than to fuel interest in a second batch by working on software? I love the idea of the coding competition (though my coding is so rusty I wouldn't be able to take part even if I could find the time) and so on, and the idea of drumming up some interest in the machines should hopefully increase preorders

Ta

 

[trendy]

I don't get what's with the "I don't want to order now when it's almost ready, I can't wait a few months for another certain batch". If its about friends, they're competent to decide for themselves already.

If you go to head-fi you'll see that people are waiting months and even years for some amps, dacs, modding of headphones and still are complaining a lot less than here.

It's not about not making hardware, testing the hardware or making more software. It's about not being negligible and avoid the unnecessary problems that could come with it. Also something called private life.
People call all of this common sense.

It's not even a delay in the strict sense. Solid software is the reason most people buy gadgets. The atmosphere have become too childish.
I know a lot of people that don't buy products because they don't have quality keyboards, aren't decently optimized. And let's not talk about those ISO 9001 certified rebranding vendors that make gadgets that only poll their advanced hardware and advertise the latest technology, considering their only engineer even bother to do it.

lulzfish, should I understand from your comment that you'll have a great time with an openmoko as your only phone? It's software was just thrown away together last time I was interested in it. It probably still is because the focused almost just on hardware, excluding NDA software that couldn't have been avoided.

 

[Gricey]

So while I'm a complete noob to here (heard about the project a bit back, but forgot soon after), I shot the pandora order email a message, hoping to get in on the first batch. I'm a UNIX geek by profession (been around the block a few times) so I may be of some help at least as an educated user / contributor / other*. Hopefully I'll get one; my email was misinterpreted the first time so I've had to reply clarifying what I meant

Don't know if this is the right place, but another thing that interests me, I see the software side of things is open source (well at least, being based on GNU/Linux there are GPL implications...), is the hardware open as well (e.g., like OpenSPARC), circuit designs, components, etc?

Mainly out of interest, I have no skill in the hardware side of things but always fascinated to see when this kind of things get opened up and the community/mods that happen as a result of that openness.

Mike

 

[lulzfish]

I was just wondering what Trendy meant by 'software'.
If there is a bug in device drivers or nub firmware or whatever, I can understand a delay in manufacturing the next batch.
The way Trendy said it, I thought he wanted to wait for games to be made or something stupid...
As long as it has all the OS stuff and desktop environment working properly, I don't understand why you would worry about how organized anything above that is.

I must have read it wrong. Don't worry about it.

 

[alucart1984]

I never claimed to be a business expert.

I'm 99% certain though that in this case if you asked ten experts in the industry they would all agree with me.

Personally I believe your post was good. It made sense and was very constructive.

I never claimed to be a business expert.

I'm 99% certain though that in this case if you asked ten experts in the industry they would all agree with me.

Brilliant. Sig worthy.

I believe your post should be more professional.


You claim you want to have a community before creating the second batch or taking a so called break before hand, the last time I checked a community involved people so the bigger the community the more people you will have. A community of 100+ people that own the device doesn't sound like much of a community. I agree with Pleng when he advises you to not take a break. I understand you may not of meant completely halting all production, but I don't agree that it will take 2 months plus to get your sources and schedule factory time. Why do I not agree with that, cause you should have that already taken care of now. Unless you are getting money first to pay for the second batch cost. All Pleng did was give advice and you didn't even follow up with a professional answer. I understand you have developed and sold other successful devices and I would like to congratulate you on that Craig, but your unprofessionalism in dealing with your future customers is disappointing. I have been following (not posting just reading) and I can say that I was/am looking forward to the Pandora and may buy one. I want to be able to order one and it be shipped immediately. I don't want to wait for a batch. Is it ever going to get to this point and if so when? I have already bought a product that had a good company behind it (Tapwave Zodiac) and it failed of course I blame some of that on marketing. The apps made for it or ported by developers like the ones on here (some even have made stuff for the Zodiac) are the only thing that kept it alive as long as it did, so the Pandora is in a better position in the long run.

 

[wardred]

Mike,
The software is Linux, so it's mostly open. You'll see some unavoidable proprietary driver stuff with at least the video driver, same as desktop Linux.
The hardware isn't open in the sense that they've given circuit designs, but there should be plenty of information on any of the connectors on the main board.
It'll be nice to have a portable gaming system with 3D drivers and support for hacking from the development team.

 

[Gricey]

Mike,
The software is Linux, so it's mostly open. You'll see some unavoidable proprietary driver stuff with at least the video driver, same as desktop Linux.

Yep - I read that and it makes me happy 90% of my current $dayJob is Linux-related systems design, deploy, handover, etc... I'll be right at home, and maybe I'll be able to help out the folks here, I've been using Linux since around 2000.

The hardware isn't open in the sense that they've given circuit designs, but there should be plenty of information on any of the connectors on the main board.
It'll be nice to have a portable gaming system with 3D drivers and support for hacking from the development team.

Understood, just thought it would be interesting to look at. I agree with you though; it's very exciting in many ways; I'll be handing my money over as soon as I can, I love emulation, a bit of a retro nut, and this looks like all I've ever wanted in a handheld.

Mike.

 

[Esn]

I'd like to point out another angle. Supposedly although our money paid for the first batch to be made

That was certainly the original intention, but I remember someone saying that due to a number of unforeseen events (e.g. the nub manufacturer going belly-up), the first batch will no longer be paying for itself and the break-even point will be somewhere in the second batch.

Luckily for us, Craig and ED have a business aside from the Pandora and can afford to take some temporary losses (I think ED said that he mortgaged his house against the money needed, too...).