Eds Status On The Pandora Os - Disheartening

[may88]

I've not read any of this thread but if I had then I'm pretty darn sure I could have made a contribution.

And No, it's not disheartening, rather encouraging actually. Okay the wifi's a bit of a bugger but that's about it.

Edit: sed -e "s/it /if /"

 

[Exophase]

OK, so tell me if I'm way off base here. If the OMAP3 can clock the UART to 3Mbps, could we take two of the UARTs from the EXT port and jury rig up a pseudo I2C port? Set them to 400kbps speed, send a steady string of 0xFF on one to act as a clock, and a couple of diodes along the other to turn the I/O lines into a single bidirectional data line?
My original thought was to set two of them to GPIO and use the CPU to pulse a pin as a clock, and the other as data, but attaching it via UART could be a lot easier and faster.

You can't simulate a clock by streaming 0xFF off a UART; it has framing start and stop bits that will get in the way of this. In that sense it's kinda meta-clocked. If you need a clock off of the ext port you can get one of the McBSP ones going.

The WiFi chip was a point of contention early on because the only Linux drivers available were a closed module. Since then an open driver has surfaced and things have moved there. I'm a little surprised that SDIO failure seems to be the bottleneck right now given that that's a core OMAP3530 feature and the Beagleboard Linux developers should have taken care of it. It sounds like they have, but are breaking it now. It seems major things get broken a lot in those releases. I wonder if there aren't problems with lack of management and coordination on that front.

Still, SDIO is just glorified SPI. I don't expect this to hold things up too much, IF it is root of the problem.

Cool.
I have the Linksys TP-Link TL-WN821N Wlan Stick (up to 300MBit/sec) how can I check if its working onto the Pandora?

Try it on a Linux PC. If it works there it'll probably work on Pandora.

 

[sryidc]

 

[VRAndy]

Well, if you're REALLY desperate using WiFi and can't wait until we have SDIO properly working, you could always use a cheap WiFi stick

Not the best solution, but working.

Really? Cool. In my mind that's an entirely usable work-around in my mind.

 

[Trey]

Well, if you're REALLY desperate using WiFi and can't wait until we have SDIO properly working, you could always use a cheap WiFi stick

Not the best solution, but working.

Really? Cool. In my mind that's an entirely usable work-around in my mind.

Something in this form factor would work nicely. http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/01/15/buffalo.wi.fi.usb.dongle/

Looks like it works in linux too with the ralink driver.

 

[verm71]

Anyone who expects perfect working software on day one (including all the emulators and, I'm sure, homebrew as well) is setting themselves up for a pretty bad disappointment. I think the best excitement will be when updated versions of this or that will be released and everyone will be like "hoo yaa! No more crash when I do this! Ooo! Now smooth!" It'll just keep giving and giving as time goes by, as it gets better and better.

Coming from a software development background, I know what kind of progress can be done in a short time and how satisfying a breakthrough fix can be.

Something in this form factor would work nicely. http://www.electroni....fi.usb.dongle/

That is a sexy looking NIC.

 

[Sphinxter]

Thing he is pointing out here is this is not the 11th hour but the 66th.

 

[emil10001]

I agree completely with the original poster. WiFi is crucial functionality. I appreciate the nature of this project, but £230 is very considerable. There is little point in the Pandora if you're going to say "the potential (hardware) is there, we'll get to it (the software to use it)". Imagine if the Pandora had been out all these months as promised, and WiFi still kinda sucked. Nobody would be happy.

I couldn't disagree with you more. I think that there are a lot of people who would see the point in such a device. There are a plethora of consumer devices that have huge capabilities, but are locked down by the vendor. As such, I don't see the point in those devices. There are some devices which can be modified to make them more useful, however those are the types of devices that start out as locked down (read not useful) and then hacked by some awesome community to be made into something more useful.

A good example of this is my phone, the G1. It was the first Android device released, and at the beginning it was a bit lacking. But, we all knew that there was much potential in this device, and was worth signing the two year contract in order to obtain it. The fact that I *knew* that it would be hacked quickly was what made it worth it for me to make that commitment. And, it was not long until root was gained, and the device exploded with potential. Many bugs were fixed in custom roms, and perhaps the most useful tool of all was enabled, and that was the wifi tether app. Now, this was a device that started out locked down, and closed off from potential by design. It was the community that made it a device worth owning.

The Pandora is starting out without those restrictions in place. What makes it worth it for me to buy is that it will be more useful to me in a year than it was on the day I received it. The fact that new and useful software, and updates, will keep coming for the next couple of years makes me excited to get in early and enjoy the ride. To see the device, and the community, grow as time goes on is my interest. Yes, wifi is important, but I would be willing to bet that it will be usable within two months of release. And I really expect it within weeks of release.

EDIT: @Sphinxter - I wouldn't start counting until it's in people's hands. That's what makes OSS work, many eyes. Right now, they just don't have that. (I realize that you're just translating the message, but my point is the same.)

 

[Chairman_Now]

The speed is about 50KB/s (400kb/s) which is slow but the real problem is that the driver loses packets constantly which means even loading a simple page like Google can be a chore. I've loaded the GP32X page successfully but then trying to click into a topic would stall forever and I'd just give up.

OK, then in other words, WiFi doesn't currently work, correct? Why is there a need to soft-peddle this lack of functionality? I wonder how many pre-orders are aware of this.

I'm pretty sure that they've been saying for quite a while that the software probably won't be entirely finished on the Pandora's release date. You should have been listening better

I'm pretty sick of responses like this. Where are they saying this? Comments in some forum? I don't see this mentioned in the "official" website. I don't see this mentioned in any of the press that's linked from the official website. Has anyone from the OP team made sure that any of the good press - press that's surely helped them sell out the first batch, and underwrite the project - was corrected so that potential buyers would be aware of this possibility?

I'm amazed that anyone here thinks it OK to bitch about customer expectations, especially those damned "newcomers", when it was these people that essentially helped to fund this project.

Well, if you're REALLY desperate using WiFi and can't wait until we have SDIO properly working, you could always use a cheap WiFi stick

Not the best solution, but working.

Sorry, but that's no solution at all, and a total cop-out. Are you going to throw one in every box? They're cheap, right?

Put it this way: would it be acceptable if there were no video drivers - there was only text mode? No sound? Or what if the highly touted analog nubs didn't work, again due to some kernel issue?

WiFi is just as important. SDHC functionality is just as important. All the hardware should be functional upon release. The Open Pandora team picked and approved all of the components. Make sure it works.

How are people going to even determine if they've gotten faulty hardware? Will warranties be extended until *ALL* hardware is fully supported?

I can't believe that anyone feels that this is acceptable. I don't want to hear the "open source" explanation. It doesn't carry water - the OSS aspect was supposed to be userland stuff, not kernel drivers. If the OP team wants this out, then open source the hardware. Otherwise, do what any other OSS supporting hardware vendor does - ensure working drivers upon hardware release.

 

[bzar]

Get a grip people! This is a community project with a company name slapped only to get cooperation from the other companies. Granted, they're not doing this pro bono like many community projects, but it's pretty darn near. You are essentially paying for the parts, manufacturing and a small piece of the design costs. They're not even turning any profit for the first batch. It is the device that needed to be done in the first place. The general idea is that with great hardware come great devs that get the software side done. I know I was buying a device, not an OS. I always kinda expected there to be something ready, but the OS has so far already exceeded my expectations. Keep in mind the nature of the project and announcements like this sound GOOD rather than "disheartening". </rant>

 

[rabidpoobear]

I can't believe that anyone feels that this is acceptable. I don't want to hear the "open source" explanation. It doesn't carry water - the OSS aspect was supposed to be userland stuff, not kernel drivers. If the OP team wants this out, then open source the hardware. Otherwise, do what any other OSS supporting hardware vendor does - ensure working drivers upon hardware release.

We've given you plenty of examples where hardware didn't work correctly out of the box. The people who think that it's acceptable that WiFi doesn't work are the people who haven't cancelled their order. If it bothers you, cancel. Get a 2nd batch unit. Bitching here won't change anything.

 

[Chairman_Now]

you plenty of examples where hardware didn't work correctly out of the box. The people who think that it's acceptable that WiFi doesn't work are the people who haven't cancelled their order.

The only example given in this thread was really lame. The G1? The 1.0 version of the firmware worked. Sure, it had problems, but all hardware was supported. Poor example.

I seriously doubt that the majority of pre-orders realize that significant hardware simply won't be functional when they open the box - due to the (purposeful?) lack of communication that is endemic with OP. Again, this is the equivalent of shipping without video drivers. Would you be OK with that, too?

Most people don't visit these forums very often, and I'd wager that you fully realize that. They won't cancel over an issue that they're unaware of.

 

[elwing]

sorry, but it was plain from start that the pandora won't be fully operational from day one... I don't see the problem there as long as everything is fixable... if that bother you you obviously failed reading information on the poandora and you should have bought a NDS or a second batch unit...

 

[rabidpoobear]

you plenty of examples where hardware didn't work correctly out of the box. The people who think that it's acceptable that WiFi doesn't work are the people who haven't cancelled their order.

The only example given in this thread was really lame. The G1? The 1.0 version of the firmware worked. Sure, it had problems, but all hardware was supported. Poor example.

I seriously doubt that the majority of pre-orders realize that significant hardware simply won't be functional when they open the box - due to the (purposeful?) lack of communication that is endemic with OP. Again, this is the equivalent of shipping without video drivers. Would you be OK with that, too?

NO IT IS NOT THE SAME.
I can't plug in a $20 USB dongle if I really need video drivers. I can do that with the WiFi.

The WiFi is supported, it is just buggy and not working fully. It will most likely get better before shipping.

There have been other examples. What about ED's example of the OpenMoko, it's a phone that couldn't even make phone calls for months after it shipped. This kind of stuff happens with open-source / community projects.

Or how about the fact that the DS can't do WPA? I had to downgrade my network to WEP to use the DS. And that's something that still isn't fixed and probably never will be. If that happened on Pandora, someone with a WPA network that knew what they were doing would add in support to the drivers. Think that'll happen with the DS?

Or the PSP shipping with nothing but framebuffer, basically, no real applications (web browser etc.) that you consider standard features of the PSP, until much later.
Or the iPhone shipping without the appstore. That's considered a main feature of the iPhone but it wasn't there on ship date, in fact it wasn't there for many months afterward. The iPhone STILL can't multitask. If you ask me, I would rather have the ability to have multiple applications simultaneously than I'd like WiFi, especially considering it's so cheap to get a WiFi dongle until they get support for the built-in. Hell, my HP laptop didn't have WiFi support under Linux for a good 2 years after it shipped so I already had to use a dongle in that situation too.

It's not a question of a problem with the hardware, it's a software problem. Drivers are software. Software's never 100% on a device launch.

Yes, one feature of the device is not going to be 100% on launch. You know what? My E71 (nokia phone) has a qwerty keyboard. It allows 2 simultaneous keypresses for all of the keys except the ones that are also used as the # keys (eg. r is 1, t is 2, y is 3, u is *, etc.) So basically I can't have more than 1 key pressed at a time. If you ever pay attention to yourself thumb typing you'd know that you actually overlap keypresses, you press one, then press the next key while lifting the previous finger, etc. You don't just tap a key then tap the next, if you want to type quickly.

I consider the 1 simultaneous keypress to be a huge hardware limitation of the phone, but they didn't say anything about this, and I only found out about it after using the phone for a while (couldn't type fast enough to notice at first.). I asked OP if they would have a problem with this on the Pandora keyboard and they have told me that the keyboard allows 2 simultaneous keypresses for every key, and all the game buttons and the 3 center buttons are on GPIO lines so you can press them independent of the keyboard. My Nokia will probably never be fixed, even though this is obviously a software issue (since the non-#'d keys work fine when pressing 2 at a time, even those directly adjacent to each other.) If that were on the OP then someone in the community would fix it. The potential for hugely frustrating software bugs being fixed on the Pandora is much higher than any closed system.

Seriously if this bothers you so much you shouldn't be buying a Pandora. Is the WiFi the only thing you have a fault with? I seriously can't believe that anyone expected a 100% polished feature-complete OS on ship day. that's just ridiculous expectations for this project.

 

[Prometheus]

Hell, my HP laptop didn't have WiFi support under Linux for a good 2 years after it shipped so I already had to use a dongle in that situation too.

I hope you don't mind me asking, but I'm really curious: Was this a machine with a distro that was pre-installed by Hewlett Packard?

If so, I can identify with that - I purchased a clearance HP Mini-Note 2133 recently, which had SUSE pre-installed, and it didn't even work out-of-the-box with its own wireless card. And this is from HP, who seem to be regarded as decent with their Linux support...

 

[cappuchok]

I'm actually not disappointed by ED's statements. I would never expect perfection at the start from this which essentially is a community driven project. As time goes by it will mature, but the fun part will be seeing how it evolves, being along for the ride. That's a big reason why I bought into this.

 

[tsh]

The community working on this software is not limited to the Pandora devs, the OMAP kernel is surely a key part of many projects, some commercial, some not. I really don't expect that OpenPandora should be expected to fix all if the kernel issues which are not specific to the Pandora. Despite all the talk, the only high volume OMAP products in production today are a couple of phones (which are locked down by default, and not really encouraging development). I was not still expecting Pandora to have a chance to be the first A8/A9 mobile pc device that I get my hands on - the community will grow once these products start to appear.

Even if most community developers can't help with the SDIO, they can surely help with the other simpler (but today more critical issues). Just maybe they will know someone who could be persuaded to become interested too.

 

[kingoddball]

 

[Tor]

I expect my USB-Ethernet dongle to work, as it works fine on both x86 and Beagleboard. Driver is in the standard kernel.org kernel. That should keep me going until wi-fi gets good. In the other thread I asked about a mailing list for contributing hackers, I'll ask it here too in case it gets overlooked in either long thread!

 

[EvilDragon]

I expect my USB-Ethernet dongle to work, as it works fine on both x86 and Beagleboard. Driver is in the standard kernel.org kernel. That should keep me going until wi-fi gets good. In the other thread I asked about a mailing list for contributing hackers, I'll ask it here too in case it gets overlooked in either long thread!

That does work. Some devs (like vimacs) do use that for developing, as they don't have a breakout box