elwing
Rabbit Addict
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That's what warning points are all about, no?
Edit by *Username*?
- Thread starter Wally
- Start date
...which still was pretty effin stupid. To speak plainly.
Personally, I think it'd be quite enough if it was possible for the mods to see edit history. That way, we could silently edit our typos all we want, and we could still actually check up when someone claims evil-editing.
Or, of course, we could hope for people (including mods, of course) to behave like grown up people. This seems to be unreasonable, unfortunately.
Personally, I think it'd be quite enough if it was possible for the mods to see edit history. That way, we could silently edit our typos all we want, and we could still actually check up when someone claims evil-editing.
Or, of course, we could hope for people (including mods, of course) to behave like grown up people. This seems to be unreasonable, unfortunately.
Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
That's not something anyone has a problem with.
Then oh well?
The primary job of the mods should be to keep the forums from going to hell, not to discipline people. If someone quickly hides the evidence of what they did and only one other person ever saw it then it no longer constitutes as much of a problem.
Besides that, how does having "edited by" really solve this? If anything it makes things worse - some guy edits a typo out of his post and all of a sudden there's an accusation that he edited out something awful. The mods/admins need actual revision logs, not an edited by tag.
Neelix
Insecticidal Maniac
Personally, I think that Edit By: lines should be left anytime a mod edits another user's post, no matter how minor the change, unless it is being done with the user's express permission.
That being said I do believe users should be able to edit their own posts blind. In my case, I use this in the same way Exophase does, correcting minor details that I notice immediately after posting.
I agree that it makes sense for mods to be able to see revision history.
- Neelix
That being said I do believe users should be able to edit their own posts blind. In my case, I use this in the same way Exophase does, correcting minor details that I notice immediately after posting.
I agree that it makes sense for mods to be able to see revision history.
- Neelix
quartercast
Well-Known Member
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- Feb 13, 2007
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- 1,551
Why should only mods have access to edit history?
Its more important that users have a record of who edits and hides their posts. It's the secret moderation and censorship that is the problem here.
One user self censors their post? Oh my god! Big deal. How many posts have been hidden or edited silently by mods? Just do it like 90% of other forums and add a comment of why you are editing and which mod the post is being edited by. Do it in red if you like. It's not hard!
And btw, its not your role to edit typos and grammatical errors. And its not your role to hide posts with the word 'nazi' in them.
Soup nazi. Food nazi. Grammar nazi. Welcome to English loanwords c.a. 1990's.
Its more important that users have a record of who edits and hides their posts. It's the secret moderation and censorship that is the problem here.
One user self censors their post? Oh my god! Big deal. How many posts have been hidden or edited silently by mods? Just do it like 90% of other forums and add a comment of why you are editing and which mod the post is being edited by. Do it in red if you like. It's not hard!
And btw, its not your role to edit typos and grammatical errors. And its not your role to hide posts with the word 'nazi' in them.
Soup nazi. Food nazi. Grammar nazi. Welcome to English loanwords c.a. 1990's.
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Is there even an edit history feature on this forum system?
I agree some of the new moderators have over-stepped their roles. Personally I don't see a reason to hide dirty words unless racially hurtful and as for fixing grammatical mistakes, I leave that to Klaspe.
I agree some of the new moderators have over-stepped their roles. Personally I don't see a reason to hide dirty words unless racially hurtful and as for fixing grammatical mistakes, I leave that to Klaspe.
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Yes, quartercast: How many posts have been hidden or edited silently by mods? Do you have a number? Or are you just throwing rhetorical questions in the air because you're angry? I've never done that. I have hidden and edited away racist slurs, but never anonymously (although I do use green, not red). I don't know that any of the mods have, but of course, I don't know everything.
You're apparently missing a post you made containing the word "nazi" that was very dear to you. I'm sorry for your loss. I've tried to track it down, actually - In the moderation toolkit, there is a record of hidden posts, complete with who hid them and for what reason (if there is a reason given by the hiding mod). I'm sorry to say, though, that there is no record of your post there. Noone seems to have hidden it. Of course, someone amongst the mods could have silently perma-deleted it - I think it is possible, although highly irregular. Of course, that would mean doing that without reporting it for discussion first (which would be the normal procedure), apparently due to the word "nazi" which really isn't on the list of reasons for reporting for action, never mind deleting, and then shutting up about it when questioned. That could have happened.
Or the forum just had a server hiccup. That is probably as likely.
Are there a lot of people around that are missing their posts? Without explanation? If so, tell me so that I can go look for them in the records that are there, and I'll try to tell you where they are and why. If there aren't, then stop alluding that there is.
"Just do it like 90% of other forums and add a comment of why you are editing and which mod the post is being edited by" - Well, yes, we are. And where do you get the silly idea that we're editing typos for people? Geez. The discussion was about editing one's own typos.
*sigh* People. We oughta ban them. All. Cheers for a future without people.
You're apparently missing a post you made containing the word "nazi" that was very dear to you. I'm sorry for your loss. I've tried to track it down, actually - In the moderation toolkit, there is a record of hidden posts, complete with who hid them and for what reason (if there is a reason given by the hiding mod). I'm sorry to say, though, that there is no record of your post there. Noone seems to have hidden it. Of course, someone amongst the mods could have silently perma-deleted it - I think it is possible, although highly irregular. Of course, that would mean doing that without reporting it for discussion first (which would be the normal procedure), apparently due to the word "nazi" which really isn't on the list of reasons for reporting for action, never mind deleting, and then shutting up about it when questioned. That could have happened.
Or the forum just had a server hiccup. That is probably as likely.
Are there a lot of people around that are missing their posts? Without explanation? If so, tell me so that I can go look for them in the records that are there, and I'll try to tell you where they are and why. If there aren't, then stop alluding that there is.
"Just do it like 90% of other forums and add a comment of why you are editing and which mod the post is being edited by" - Well, yes, we are. And where do you get the silly idea that we're editing typos for people? Geez. The discussion was about editing one's own typos.
*sigh* People. We oughta ban them. All. Cheers for a future without people.
quartercast
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2007
- Messages
- 1,551
Thankyou Moxie, it appears you are very skeptical of my claims. Like I would bullshit about something like this, why would I do that?
This forum has had problems of secret moderation in the past. I'm not going to name names. There is a whole thread on it, maybe from 2012. I also thought that there was some secret moderating going on in Polukus's recent trading thread, but my memory may be failing me there.
Regarding moderating of typos, I was just responding to a post earlier in the thread that mods should be allowed to fix other people's typos silently. Maybe I read incorrectly, but I disagree with that.
Thanks for being sarcastic about my missing post, and the snyde remark about "people". Unfortunately I don't accept those remarks, so you can keep them.
I am entirely serious. I have looked for your post. There is no trace of it. I have asked around. Nobody has 'fessed up to permadeleting it. There has been no report about it. There is no hide entry. And I might of course be wrong, but I don't think I'm intimidating enough that people would cower in fear when I ask about a missing post. So, I'm stumped. I am just as sceptical as I say: It is entirely possible that somebody deleted it and keeps quiet about it. Or the forum hiccuped. That has happened before, too.
So: I am not doubting that you wrote a post. I am not doubting that it disappeared. I'm not necessarily convinced that it was (or that it wasn't) removed by a mod, is all. And if I'm being sarcastic, it is not about your experience of a missing post, but of the immediate conclusion that there is some massive secret moderation thing going on. "It's the secret moderation and censorship that is the problem here" - Ehm, well...you need more data than one missing post for to get there. So, do you have any more?
I did some moderating in Pokulus trading thread. It is well documented for the concerned parties, i.e. Pokulus. And in the mod sections, so if you where to ask "Who did moderate away stuff in this thread", any of the mods could have answered about that. I do not know about any secret moderation thread - If you know where it is, by all means link it - but if it is "maybe from 2012" then there will be, uh...Wally and Sony around from the actual time covered, who are still active as mods. Unless I'm mistaken. In what way is that relevant to now? You think Wally is part of the secret moderation cabal?
The remark about people covers us all, mate. It is less snide than resigned.
So: I am not doubting that you wrote a post. I am not doubting that it disappeared. I'm not necessarily convinced that it was (or that it wasn't) removed by a mod, is all. And if I'm being sarcastic, it is not about your experience of a missing post, but of the immediate conclusion that there is some massive secret moderation thing going on. "It's the secret moderation and censorship that is the problem here" - Ehm, well...you need more data than one missing post for to get there. So, do you have any more?
I did some moderating in Pokulus trading thread. It is well documented for the concerned parties, i.e. Pokulus. And in the mod sections, so if you where to ask "Who did moderate away stuff in this thread", any of the mods could have answered about that. I do not know about any secret moderation thread - If you know where it is, by all means link it - but if it is "maybe from 2012" then there will be, uh...Wally and Sony around from the actual time covered, who are still active as mods. Unless I'm mistaken. In what way is that relevant to now? You think Wally is part of the secret moderation cabal?
The remark about people covers us all, mate. It is less snide than resigned.
I'd also note that, in general, we seem to be very good at discussing mod action before taking it.
It could be that one of us is wildly messing around, but I'm not aware of anyone deleting posts without (at least) making others aware of it.
It could be that one of us is wildly messing around, but I'm not aware of anyone deleting posts without (at least) making others aware of it.
Kumaki
Well-Known Member
I agree with Binky. We have had a good talk among Mods regarding what actions should be taken...and even then, only after several opinions are given on it...unless it is blatant
A. Spam
B. Porn
C. Offering sale of illegal items or weapons
D. Racist/sexist/homopobic
We have all agreed that in those cases, immediate action can be taken, and that such posts should be HIDDEN...then discussed, not deleted.
Delete happens only after discussion and agreement.
Insertion of Dark Green Mod Type has been frowned upon, the preferred method now would be to hide the post, and send the member a PM about the hidden post and why it was hidden. If public comment is warranted, or the Mod desires...they may post a new, seperate comment under their own name, as to why the post was hidden.
This prevents "fake modding" and also leaves a trail as to who did the Mod action and why.
Hidden posts can always be restored if the majority agreement, after discussion, is that the post should not have been hidden.
These are the basic rules we Mods now follow - and have uniformly agreed to.
I will confess, in my early days when I did not know better...to some anonymous bold green type, where I did not sign my name to it. This is a situation which will no longer occur, as we have all agreed insterting bold green into another post is not a good way to Mod things, as it does not leave a definitive trail of who did the Modding - after all, anyone COULD insert bold green type (I will name no names here) and then claim the post was Modded, when it wasn't...or even then put a Mod's name there, and falsely attribute the action to a Mod...when the Mod in question did not even do it.
Believe it or not this actually WAS a concern...due to actions by someone whom I will not name.
The new way we are going about Modding things addresses this problem. There is now a consensus in an established manner of Modding which makes the Mod trail transparent (we know who did the Modding) - the post restorable (Hidden posts CAN be Unhidden if the consensus is that it should not have been Hidden) - makes it impossible to falsely attribute Modding to any Mod or an anonymous Mod...no more "fake Modding." because since we all follow the same rules, this action would be obvious. No outright deleting of posts without extensive discussion and agreement among several Mods.
These rules have been agreed to by all Mods...in order to ensure posts that should not get Modded don't...that posts don't just disappear...and that Modding is transparent. This should address the concerns raised by quartercast...and any others who have concerns.
We Mods have a hard job to do...enforcing basic rules and civility on these Forums. we are NOT "gods" or to be deferred to in any way. But actions taken by Mods are discussed in a group of Mods, and the consensus determines what action is taken...thus, if you got Modded...it is very likely that MANY Mods agreed with the action.
Oh, and quartercast??
Depending on the CONTEXT and intent of the word "nazi" it can be hidden, and sometimes should be.
If it IS hidden...as mentioned above, the Mod who did it, should PM you explaining WHY it was hidden (this part may or may not happen immediately) but the hidden post will be brought to the attention of Mods for discussion and consensus.
If the final consensus is that the post should have been hidden...AT THAT POINT...the Mod who initiated the action may choose to PM you about it...and may even issue a Warning Point. Or take other action which has been agreed to by a consensus of Mods.
If the consensus is that it should not have been hidden, the post will be then unhidden, and no further action happens.
In either case, NO Mod here is taking any sort of unilateral action. This is an agreement we have all hashed out in discussions...as a result of having many new Mods, myself being one of them. If any Mod was found to be violating the rules we have agreed to among ourselves...we would address it with that Mod.
A. Spam
B. Porn
C. Offering sale of illegal items or weapons
D. Racist/sexist/homopobic
We have all agreed that in those cases, immediate action can be taken, and that such posts should be HIDDEN...then discussed, not deleted.
Delete happens only after discussion and agreement.
Insertion of Dark Green Mod Type has been frowned upon, the preferred method now would be to hide the post, and send the member a PM about the hidden post and why it was hidden. If public comment is warranted, or the Mod desires...they may post a new, seperate comment under their own name, as to why the post was hidden.
This prevents "fake modding" and also leaves a trail as to who did the Mod action and why.
Hidden posts can always be restored if the majority agreement, after discussion, is that the post should not have been hidden.
These are the basic rules we Mods now follow - and have uniformly agreed to.
I will confess, in my early days when I did not know better...to some anonymous bold green type, where I did not sign my name to it. This is a situation which will no longer occur, as we have all agreed insterting bold green into another post is not a good way to Mod things, as it does not leave a definitive trail of who did the Modding - after all, anyone COULD insert bold green type (I will name no names here) and then claim the post was Modded, when it wasn't...or even then put a Mod's name there, and falsely attribute the action to a Mod...when the Mod in question did not even do it.
Believe it or not this actually WAS a concern...due to actions by someone whom I will not name.
The new way we are going about Modding things addresses this problem. There is now a consensus in an established manner of Modding which makes the Mod trail transparent (we know who did the Modding) - the post restorable (Hidden posts CAN be Unhidden if the consensus is that it should not have been Hidden) - makes it impossible to falsely attribute Modding to any Mod or an anonymous Mod...no more "fake Modding." because since we all follow the same rules, this action would be obvious. No outright deleting of posts without extensive discussion and agreement among several Mods.
These rules have been agreed to by all Mods...in order to ensure posts that should not get Modded don't...that posts don't just disappear...and that Modding is transparent. This should address the concerns raised by quartercast...and any others who have concerns.
We Mods have a hard job to do...enforcing basic rules and civility on these Forums. we are NOT "gods" or to be deferred to in any way. But actions taken by Mods are discussed in a group of Mods, and the consensus determines what action is taken...thus, if you got Modded...it is very likely that MANY Mods agreed with the action.
Oh, and quartercast??
Depending on the CONTEXT and intent of the word "nazi" it can be hidden, and sometimes should be.
If it IS hidden...as mentioned above, the Mod who did it, should PM you explaining WHY it was hidden (this part may or may not happen immediately) but the hidden post will be brought to the attention of Mods for discussion and consensus.
If the final consensus is that the post should have been hidden...AT THAT POINT...the Mod who initiated the action may choose to PM you about it...and may even issue a Warning Point. Or take other action which has been agreed to by a consensus of Mods.
If the consensus is that it should not have been hidden, the post will be then unhidden, and no further action happens.
In either case, NO Mod here is taking any sort of unilateral action. This is an agreement we have all hashed out in discussions...as a result of having many new Mods, myself being one of them. If any Mod was found to be violating the rules we have agreed to among ourselves...we would address it with that Mod.
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quartercast
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2007
- Messages
- 1,551
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Ge_kqbzITX0J:http://boards.openpandora.org/index.php/topic/11942-my-pandora-was-ran-over-buy-a-car/page-1%2Bquartercast+grammar+nazi&hl=en&client=safari&nomo=1&biw=320&bih=416&ct=clnk
Moxie, you were saying?
Btw thanks for your honesty Kumaki, I remember there was some anonymous moderating going on, frequently with green text comments. There is even some in the link posted above.
I was saying that I don't in any way doubt that you wrote a post and that it disappeared. I also cannot find any traces of it having been removed by any of the mods. Does this image gainsay me in any way that I do not understand?
...but that image sure helped me clear that up. That was the thread about something else that derailed into misogynistic trash. There were several warnings from us that this was not an acceptable level of discussion, but since the posters didn't clean up, the topic was split so that the posts that went off the deep end and their comments were moved to another thread, and the topic locked. Your post went with the others not because of the word "nazi", but because it was part of that thread (it would be rather incomprehensible left on its own amongst the rest).
We still have that thread. You can have your post back somewhere, if you like, although it doesn't make much sense by itself - that post is by no means something that would be considered bad. It is a bit dishonest to call that as a case of "secret" moderation though, given that there were a rather large number of rather stern warnings and admonitions given by most of the moderation staff, in-thread, before we gave up and took it away. I can restore your post in the context of a selection of mod warnings, if you want
We still have that thread. You can have your post back somewhere, if you like, although it doesn't make much sense by itself - that post is by no means something that would be considered bad. It is a bit dishonest to call that as a case of "secret" moderation though, given that there were a rather large number of rather stern warnings and admonitions given by most of the moderation staff, in-thread, before we gave up and took it away. I can restore your post in the context of a selection of mod warnings, if you want
Nintendo
Nintendo Switch
I didn't sign up for this bs and will be standing down soon as mod, because...to be honest, ever since Prom left and a heap of mods were appointed (post Gadge and Walls), being here is no longer enjoyable. It's not the same 'good' that it once was anymore. Now, I only have Gadge & Walls to look up to.
Anyway, the ****** stuff that's been going on here this year isn't due to any non-mod members doing, but it's actually due to over-modorating done by half of the most recent mods.
It ***** me to tears, really and I can't just sit here and watch all the bs behaviour piss members off.
I now hate people who have double standards or people who behave in a contradictory manner, so I'd rather be a non-mod member than be part of this hypocrisy.
Anyway, the ****** stuff that's been going on here this year isn't due to any non-mod members doing, but it's actually due to over-modorating done by half of the most recent mods.
It ***** me to tears, really and I can't just sit here and watch all the bs behaviour piss members off.
I now hate people who have double standards or people who behave in a contradictory manner, so I'd rather be a non-mod member than be part of this hypocrisy.
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Kumaki
Well-Known Member
quartercast...you are quite welcome. I believe that the Modding function should be transparent...not just to other Moids, but to the entire community.
As long as we Mods all follow the rules we have hashed out and agreed to among ourselves, this should make our job as Mods a lot easier...and Modding less controversial.
If everyone here understands that no Mod is taking unilateral action, then it follows that...if you got Modded, you probably deserved it, since a consensus of several Mods agreed that you should have been Modded.
Likewise, the discussion/consensus model we are using...leavens out the possibility of one particular Mod being offended by something most people wouldn't...and Modding on that basis...personal feelings are removed from the equation. There are certain members, for example...who will not be Modded by certain Mods, because those Mods have issues with that person...I have one on my list, for example, whom I will not Mod, suimply because there exists the possibility that I would over-react due to personal feelings.
We try to be professional and transparent in what we do. We are not GODS, we should not be deferred to, or treated as anyone special...we're not.
But I believe it helps if the general Board public has an idea of how Modding is actually done...and that they understand that unilateral Mod action is not normally taken. even in cases of OBVIOUS violation, such as I mentioned above...and the post is hidden immediately prior to any discussion....it is still brought to the attention of other Mods...and discussed - and if the consensus is that such post should not have been hidden...it WILL be un-hidden.
Likewise, we all agree that any Warning Points given by a Mod should first be discussed and approved by a consensus. This way, if you get bonked, you should know you deserved it. and that the action was agreed to by a consensus of Mods...and that it was not just one Mod acting unilaterally. We have all frowned on unilateral Mod action.
As long as we Mods all follow the rules we have hashed out and agreed to among ourselves, this should make our job as Mods a lot easier...and Modding less controversial.
If everyone here understands that no Mod is taking unilateral action, then it follows that...if you got Modded, you probably deserved it, since a consensus of several Mods agreed that you should have been Modded.
Likewise, the discussion/consensus model we are using...leavens out the possibility of one particular Mod being offended by something most people wouldn't...and Modding on that basis...personal feelings are removed from the equation. There are certain members, for example...who will not be Modded by certain Mods, because those Mods have issues with that person...I have one on my list, for example, whom I will not Mod, suimply because there exists the possibility that I would over-react due to personal feelings.
We try to be professional and transparent in what we do. We are not GODS, we should not be deferred to, or treated as anyone special...we're not.
But I believe it helps if the general Board public has an idea of how Modding is actually done...and that they understand that unilateral Mod action is not normally taken. even in cases of OBVIOUS violation, such as I mentioned above...and the post is hidden immediately prior to any discussion....it is still brought to the attention of other Mods...and discussed - and if the consensus is that such post should not have been hidden...it WILL be un-hidden.
Likewise, we all agree that any Warning Points given by a Mod should first be discussed and approved by a consensus. This way, if you get bonked, you should know you deserved it. and that the action was agreed to by a consensus of Mods...and that it was not just one Mod acting unilaterally. We have all frowned on unilateral Mod action.
Kumaki
Well-Known Member
I am sorry you feel this way Sony. I, for one, will miss your input in the discussions.
You should understand that the recent appointing of a lot of new Mods was because so many of the old ones left and are no longer a part of our community.
Because many of us ARE new, and with no prior experience...we are all learning. This is one reason why unilateral action is not good.
I, myself, have prior and current experience Moddiing, Adminning, hosting, and SYSOP-ing Boards. Still, I'm learning the culture here, which has to be taken into account when Modding. Please have some patience with us newer Mods as we learn, and please reconsider your decision to stand down as a Mod. I believe your insights can be valuable to the rest of us.
YOU may have only Gadge and Walls to look up to...but many of us newer Mods could be looking up to YOU. And learning from your experience and insights. As I mentioned myself...the culture of the Board has to be taken into account when Modding...and this is an area where you can be very helpful to us newer Mods.
You say "it's not the same 'good' that it once was anymore" you can help to bring about the kind of 'good' you are looking for, the culture you are looking for...by guiding us newer Mods into learning the culture that exists/existed...the culture you'd like to see for our future.
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