Discussion about SPM / Repo (Split from other topic)

[moxie]

This is, as far as I know, illegal. Not just irritating, but properly illegal as in could actually be brought to court. IANAL, of course, and I'm basing this on my understanding of swedish law, but those particular laws are supposedly based on a EU directive that each EU member state is bound to implement. In effect, it is illegal to collect personal data without informing the person that data will be collected. -Ish. That is why you always have to click the "yes, I've read and understood this websites user policy" everytime you register on a website - That user policy informs you that your personal data is collected.


And StreaK, don't be silly. No, SPM doesn't collect IP data, but as ED said, your web server logs do. You could with a minimum of work map every user to an IP just by opening the logs side by side. That doesn't mean that you would (and I'm all with skeezix who says he thinks you mean no harm), but that would not hold legally. Seriously, this is some bad shit.


In a way, you're doing the equivalent of walking into a military installation taking photographs, and when people tell you to stop, you tell them that they cannot look at your pictures. In that case, you (the photographer) might not know that you are on illegal ground, bu that won't matter if someone presses the issue. Same here. You are expected to know and abide with the laws.

 

[crow_riot]

sorry, i can't resist. this is so ridiculous - why not just like everybody else just freaking upload the PNDs to the repo. or create a simple webpage like sebt3 did? that would safe so much hassle.


i dont know but are you an attention whore? it feels every step you do it's just to get attention. sure you get it. are you enjoying this?

 

[moxie]

An EULA that isn't read is not binding. You know that as well. If you have people signing off that they have read it, that is one thing, but merely packing it in is not legally relevant. Stop being silly.

 

[StreaK]

An EULA that isn't read is not binding. You know that as well. If you have people signing off that they have read it, that is one thing, but merely packing it in is not legally relevant. Stop being silly.

"An EULA that isn't read is not binding."


Is it an ultimate joke, boy? If you dont know law, the laws dont affect you? Dont blame SPM for wrong PND Packaging ideas implemented in OP.. You even dont need to start PND main executable to read EULA firstly [that was provided in SPM].

 

[moxie]

This has been legally tested, in connection with "shrinkwrap licenses". Now, as you probably know, I haven't tried SPM. If it on first boot pops up a dialog saying "Don't forget to read the EULA" or someting, you're in the clear, but if it is reasonably possible to run the software without knowing that there exists a EULA, you're not. The thing is that for it to be an Agreement, it must be agreed upon by both parties, and thus the user must be informed without a doubt that there is such an Agreement connected to the using of the software. That is precisely because it is an Agreement, and not a Law.


The european directive on personal information, however, is a Law, in all participating member states, and as such we are all expected to know them and abide by them.

 

[StreaK]

It was proven, that some info in PXML was clearly created for licenses purposes. Go on , look inside PXML spec. If You dont know PXML spec, you should blame yourself for not knowing anything about packages that comes with commercial or other license-wise apps in PND. Dont be "Commander Beef" ..

 

[pmprog]

Apparently, EULAs are only legally binding if you force the user into accepting them. Just mentioning them is not enough.


http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/988968-/58415129

 

[moxie]

As far as I remember (I obviously can't look now), SPM displayed no license information on the repo (i.e. you didn't use those license fields). Thus, the user would not know what license it was under. Did you require people to sign off that they had read the EULA? Or at least prominently display that there was an EULA to be read?

 

[StreaK]

ugh, thats nice. Can i really copy Arora Rift and PolloPollo to my friends and hack around / decompile , without worries . Nice, very nice boys.


Of course it was license info in repo.

 

[moxie]

I specifically searched for it, and could not see it. And that was before this all happened. But if it was there, of course that is another thing. That still does not make an EULA binding, as pmprog too points out. And it still is on a different level than illegally collecting personal information.

 

[pmprog]

ugh, thats nice. Can i really copy Arora Rift and PolloPollo to my friends and hack around / decompile , without worries . Nice, very nice boys.

Actually, I think that would come under copyright theft, as opposed to breaching the EULA

 

[sandwhich]

Beside all the controversy there is a intressting point here: In fact, using PNDStore, I rarely came across any license informations using apps. Does this mean, playing a GPLed app, that the license(GPL) is invalid, because it wasn't shown me upfront?


Apparently most PNDs carry along license infos in their PXML. Maybe it should be implemented into the PND system, that when you first launch an app, it lets you approve this license?

 

[foxblock]

To clear this one up, here is the full PXML file of SPM as of the 20th of February 2012 (aka the latest version at the time of writing): http://pastebin.com/Fh4W3fNb


All I can see in the license field is a "StreaK Modified-Freeware License", which links to your facebook wall. I tried for about 10 minutes, but could not find a license text there, which essentially makes your license void as you would have to link to an actual license text.


What you did include was a "readme" with the EULA text, but the PXML clearly only states "readme" and not "EULA" as the description (and you used the info tag for that, not the license tag, rendering your previous arguments pretty much also void), so how is anybody going to guess that this is an EULA (as you are probably aware nobody reads those and it certainly is not mandatory).


For the record here is the EULA text: http://pastebin.com/9St9SLcX


(also by design of the PND system you cannot read that EULA before installing the product as the software is basically installed on mount, as is the readme, which is previously unavailable to the layman)

 

[moxie]

That was what I remembered, too. Also, I note that not even the EULA mentions collection of personal data.


Sandwich: If you click the button for "package content", you ought to be able to see the license and get hold of the proper license text. Licenses do not have to be read to be valid, but they must be findable - You are supposed to know that software you use is under some sort of license, but you can't be expected to abide by a non-findable license text.

 

[StreaK]

All I can see in the license field is a "StreaK Modified-Freeware License", which links to your facebook wall. I tried for about 10 minutes, but could not find a license text there, which essentially makes your license void as you would have to link to an actual license text.

You need to search harder..


Downloading a software via repo is bidding that you understand of Streak Modified-Freeware license agreement provided in repo info.

What you did include was a "readme" with the EULA text, but the PXML clearly only states "readme" and not "EULA" as the description (and you used the info tag for that, not the license tag, rendering your previous arguments pretty much also void), so how is anybody going to guess that this is an EULA (as you are probably aware nobody reads those and it certainly is not mandatory).


For the record here is the EULA text: http://pastebin.com/9St9SLcX

PXML clearly states that this info goes with license. It is no matter it was writter readme or eula.

(also by design of the PND system you cannot read that EULA before installing the product as the software is basically installed on mount, as is the readme, which is previously unavailable to the layman)

of course misinterpretation since PND package isnt protected by EULA, but the executable and portions of SPM. If you mount PND it doesnt mean you started the app. Of course you could read readme / eula earlier before starting executable.

 

[Prometheus]

MODS: Please remove all extracted scripts and portions from board.

Nope. We're not some for-hire censorship-squad.


Ask the posters yourself - they don't appear to have broken any forum rules that I'm aware of.

 

[foxblock]

PXML clearly states that this info goes with license. It is no matter it was writter readme or eula.

Please quote me the part of the PXML which states exactly that. Because as far as I can see it, that "fact" is simply made up and wrong.

of course misinterpretation since PND package isnt protected by EULA, but the executable and portions of SPM. If you mount PND it doesnt mean you started the app. Of course you could read readme / eula earlier before starting executable.

Well then you should rewrite you EULA because it clearly states "IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THESE TERMS, DO NOT INSTALL THE PRODUCT." which is not possible due to how the PND system works.


You put so much emphasis on small words and facts (in your EULA, in the PXML specification, etc.), so I can, too the difference between "installing" and "using" might be small on the Pandora, but there still is a difference and an EULA should be worded clear and unambiguous.

 

[moxie]

For the license to be valid, the license text must be available, not in a way that leaves the user needing to "search harder". And when it comes to these kinds of things, words are rather important. A "modified freeware-license" is not the same thing as a readme, and specifically: The license, such as it is given, must be available where you say it is.


But you know this, of course. As with your software, you basically don't bother about the details and hope to be able to solve stuff in retrospect.


EDIT: The same things as foxblock says, but another way around.

 

[StreaK]

it seems that fun is over. Mum, im going home..

 

[Miner49er]

This 'discussion' is making me sad.


Streak is obviously putting a lot of effort into contributing to the Pandora - maybe give him a break?


And just make a simple request:


Make the storing of username an option based on whether the user has signed an agreement (I guess made an account to access his repository)


Simple...or am I missing something else terrible that the fella has done?