Debs resigns

[ramboky]

I've messaged and emailed Debs on a few occasions and while some were certainly terse, none were abusive. She was always polite and courteous. The impression I got was she was aware the lack of communication was a real problem and was taking questions to Craig, but he was failing to respond.

While I'm sure she received abuse (there were some particularly nasty comments on KS directed at her) and I find that particularly loathsome, I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reason she quit was frustration at dealing with Craig or a realization he was feeding her lines. I had asked for a refund which I was told was not possible now because all funds were wrapped up in production. So, shortly before she quit, I asked why they couldn't refund my shipping charges and the profit margin on my ICP2 order now and the remainder later. And also, what happened to the contingency fund they had claimed existed. She quit before I got a reply but if she presented those questions to Craig I doubt she got clear or honest answers.

It's a shame it's come to this and that Craig is happy to let others shoulder the fallout of his actions, or lack thereof.

 

[vcoleiro1]

I don't understand anything about this update. It answers almost nothing .


Does that mean we now have the LEDs?. If you have all the parts why didn't he mention he got the LEDs that everyone has been holding their breath for over 3 months for. Not one mention of the LEDs in the update .


Are the swivel holder issues resolved or is there still a delay?


Why would you only now follow up a part that was ordered 7 months ago, especially when 2000 backers were breathing down your neck to get things happening.


Now that he has the parts , what are the next steps and ETA?


I hate to say it, but I'd imagine Debs resigned because she was probably fed up with not being able to get an answer for everyone's questions . Being in that position would drive you nuts.

 

[ramboky]

My thoughts exactly. 

I hope Craig realizes the effects of his actions here will go well beyond this project. He'll never fund another successful Kickstarter, nor will any but the most foolish and optimistic person pre-order anything from him ever again. I doubt anyone here will choose to work with him again, even in the background. And if any future employers decide to Google his name they'll immediately see how much of an incompetent, arrogant and weaselly coward he is.

 

[ekianjo]

My thoughts exactly. 


I hope Craig realizes the effects of his actions here will go well beyond this project. He'll never fund another successful Kickstarter, nor will any but the most foolish and optimistic person pre-order anything from him ever again. I doubt anyone here will choose to work with him again, even in the background. And if any future employers decide to Google his name they'll immediately see how much of an incompetent, arrogant and weaselly coward he is.

I dont think he cares. Snake oil vendors always find new ways to fool people.

 

[GizmoAgent]

I am actually getting pissed off at some of the comments towards Craig. "Abusive emails do not simply appear". I will be the last person to defend Craig's actions, but the suggestion that if he had been more forthcoming with updates then there wouldn't have been as many is completely absurd. Don't get me wrong, it is definitely correct, but no one, not even Craig no matter how much some people think he deserves what comes to him, NO ONE is responsible for the actions of another. These people chose of their own free will to send nasty letters, Craig did not hold a gun to their heads, they made a choice. They could have sent polite letters asking for updates, they could have done some of their own research and sent chocolate to Debs in consolation for having to put up with a shitty position. They could have done a lot of things. They chose nasty email and while Craig could have mitigated it with more updates he IS. NOT. RESPONSIBLE.


If I could change one thing about society it would be this: you are responsible for your own actions. When given a fair choice, own your choice. Don't say "he made me do it", especially when that choice turns out to be wrong.


(I specify "fair" choice because there do exist "cake or death" choices, or perhaps "nasty email or death" would be a better analogy, but those are usually triggered by the choice that another person has made. The other person has chosen to put a gun to your head. This is not such a situation.)

People get angry when they feel they have been abused financially. They also might say or do things they normally would not when it comes to the almighty pound.. It's human nature...deal with it please and stop yelling.

Yes as you say "people get angry", "it's human nature" deal with it, people yell.

my point, WizardStan's point is the polite way to do it, you on the other hand are saying its fine to send abusive email cause "it's human nature". bullshit.

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

I am actually getting pissed off at some of the comments towards Craig. "Abusive emails do not simply appear". I will be the last person to defend Craig's actions, but the suggestion that if he had been more forthcoming with updates then there wouldn't have been as many is completely absurd. Don't get me wrong, it is definitely correct, but no one, not even Craig no matter how much some people think he deserves what comes to him, NO ONE is responsible for the actions of another. These people chose of their own free will to send nasty letters, Craig did not hold a gun to their heads, they made a choice. They could have sent polite letters asking for updates, they could have done some of their own research and sent chocolate to Debs in consolation for having to put up with a shitty position. They could have done a lot of things. They chose nasty email and while Craig could have mitigated it with more updates he IS. NOT. RESPONSIBLE.


If I could change one thing about society it would be this: you are responsible for your own actions. When given a fair choice, own your choice. Don't say "he made me do it", especially when that choice turns out to be wrong.


(I specify "fair" choice because there do exist "cake or death" choices, or perhaps "nasty email or death" would be a better analogy, but those are usually triggered by the choice that another person has made. The other person has chosen to put a gun to your head. This is not such a situation.)

People get angry when they feel they have been abused financially. They also might say or do things they normally would not when it comes to the almighty pound.. It's human nature...deal with it please and stop yelling.

Yes as you say "people get angry", "it's human nature" deal with it, people yell.

my point, WizardStan's point is the polite way to do it, you on the other hand are saying its fine to send abusive email cause "it's human nature". bullshit.

When some people get angry about money they get abusive and because of Craig's poor handling of customer service abusive emails are to be expected. I do not say it is fine but it is to be expected and it is the CEO'S [Craig's] fault at this juncture. The whole process has been handled poorly from the bottom>>up.  Please watch your language because your response is rather angry too.

 

[WizardStan]

my point, WizardStan's point is the polite way to do it, you on the other hand are saying its fine to send abusive email cause "it's human nature". bullshit.

Quite. The point is that people are dicks, people will behave poorly, but they shouldn't be excused with "human nature" and things like "if Craig had done X it wouldn't have happened". Absolutely, if Craig had been more forthcoming with information then there probably wouldn't have been as many abusive emails and Debs wouldn't have felt the need to quit, but that doesn't change the fact that the people that sent the abusive emails made the choice of their own free will to send those emails. It isn't human nature, it's asshole nature. If it were human nature then everyone (or at least a majority) would have done it. Craig is not culpable for the actions of the assholes.Consider the following extreme situation. Man at work does his job with regular excellence but there are physical limits to what can be accomplished. Boss is angry, he yells at the man because the extruders take too long and that parts have a 1% failure rate (even though the national average is 3% failure rate). Man goes home and beats his wife because she didn't have dinner ready as soon as he was home. It's "human nature", the man was frustrated and angry and just wanted some dinner. It's his bosses fault for yelling so much about things beyond anyone's control. It's his wife's fault for not having dinner ready like she said she would. Bullshit.

It's bullshit in this example and it's bullshit in Craig's situation. It doesn't matter what the situation is, no matter how basic or extreme, when you make a choice to be abusive to another human being that is the choice you have made and not a single person has forced you to act that way. It isn't human nature to act like a dick, if it is I want to know where all these non-humans are coming from that seem to somehow be capable of controlling their anger.

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

my point, WizardStan's point is the polite way to do it, you on the other hand are saying its fine to send abusive email cause "it's human nature". bullshit.

Quite. The point is that people are dicks, people will behave poorly, but they shouldn't be excused with "human nature" and things like "if Craig had done X it wouldn't have happened". Absolutely, if Craig had been more forthcoming with information then there probably wouldn't have been as many abusive emails and Debs wouldn't have felt the need to quit, but that doesn't change the fact that the people that sent the abusive emails made the choice of their own free will to send those emails. It isn't human nature, it's asshole nature. If it were human nature then everyone (or at least a majority) would have done it. Craig is not culpable for the actions of the assholes.
Consider the following extreme situation. Man at work does his job with regular excellence but there are physical limits to what can be accomplished. Boss is angry, he yells at the man because the extruders take too long and that parts have a 1% failure rate (even though the national average is 3% failure rate). Man goes home and beats his wife because she didn't have dinner ready as soon as he was home. It's "human nature", the man was frustrated and angry and just wanted some dinner. It's his bosses fault for yelling so much about things beyond anyone's control. It's his wife's fault for not having dinner ready like she said she would. Bullshit.


It's bullshit in this example and it's bullshit in Craig's situation. It doesn't matter what the situation is, no matter how basic or extreme, when you make a choice to be abusive to another human being that is the choice you have made and not a single person has forced you to act that way. It isn't human nature to act like a dick, if it is I want to know where all these non-humans are coming from that seem to somehow be capable of controlling their anger.

If you run a company half-assed then guess what??...you attract assholes!! Like flies to shit. Simple as that. It's called bad karma  ....and one of the mysterious facts of life.

Please excuse my language but these posts have reduced me to such lingo I suppose.

I have no real clue why the downward spiral for this individual Craig whom I never met or chatted with. Whatever the case is you get what you put forth and he rightfully deserves the batch of assholes,dicks,twits,,,what have you,,, when this is what your company emulates. Tis his fault entirely at this juncture.

 

[Askarus]

What's your problem?

If there is a company which promises shipment before Christmas and now in July there is still nothing it's totally understandable that people write angry mails.

I would do that as well.

If the ones who are not responsible for the mess are the ones who do the E-Mail it's not my problem.

I suppose most people complained about craig and the delay and it's their right to do so.

Leaving Craig is the best decision ever.

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

What's your problem?

If there is a company which promises shipment before Christmas and now in July there is still nothing it's totally understandable that people write angry mails.

I would do that as well.

If the ones who are not responsible for the mess are the ones who do the E-Mail it's not my problem.

I suppose most people complained about craig and the delay and it's their right to do so.

Leaving Craig is the best decision ever.

^agreed. Finally someone shares my perspective somewhat.

 

[Asiyura]

Being aggressive to people that are employed by a company is the best way to being a massive asshole… and the worst human being can be.

I worked in a call-center because I had to eat, not because I endorsed what the company did.

So when people were aggressive, I had to keep calm and polite.

You can't even remotely imagine how stressful and tiring it is.

I could understand that they were angry and all, but I wasn't the guilty one… I was only there to earn some money by trying to help them…

Every day I had some angry people on the phone, thinking I was some sort of non-human extension of an enterprise.

They were using that excuse to insult me, to shout at me. That's not the human nature, that's people being dicks because they don't want to take in account that they're talking to humans, not brainless robots.

 

[Askarus]

Well that sucks - I don't know how the people sending abusive emails to strangers on the 'net can live with themselves.

Anyway - thanks for the help from someone who appreciates you efforts.

I'm pretty sure those bad guys didn't intend to shout at some poor person answering the Mails for Craig.

They intended to shout at that guy who is responsible for that mess.

So don't blame those who are angered because some guy tells lies.

Why should they not write an angry mail to the company of that guy?

If there is a person between the bad guy and the angry people I'd ask myself why that guy doesn't want to talk to all the people he took money from.

That debs resigned is not the fault of the angry people but of those guy who caused the anger and doesn't want to talk to anyone.

If people throw with shit at you don't ask an other person to stand in front of you.

 

[Exophase]

Frankly I don't think we should give Craig the benefit of the doubt that Debs only left because people were being mean to her. I've gotten plenty of angry messages from people who are randomly venting at me for something that's not my fault and not my problem and it's pretty easy to overlook them.. would be even easier if it were my job to do so.

Really can't say for sure without hearing her side of the story, but consider the following:

1) She had to be getting way more e-mails than she would have had this thing been going as expected, including dealing with the same people over and over again

2) We know she was already trying to work out refunds which is outside the scope of what could have been expected

3) iCP2 should have been delivered already a long time ago at which point her involvement would have been minimal at least until they started sending more

4) The consensus opinion against Craig's management of iCP2 is highly negative.. now I don't know what Debs' personal relationship with Craig is but statistically speaking there's a good chance she wouldn't be happy with how he's doing things and wouldn't want to work with someone who's running things like this

I don't know if she got paid or what, if not it's all the more understandable that she wouldn't want to deal with much more work than she signed up for.

We do know there were some jerkwads who directly blamed Debs or even claimed that she was just an alias for Craig to hide behind, they've admitted this much on the KS comments.. but way more were defending her.

That debs resigned is not the fault of the angry people but of those guy who caused the anger and doesn't want to talk to anyone.

I think you're underestimating what raging morons can be like. Here's a snippet from the iCP2 comments:

Deb you are a whore and should throw yourself off a cliff b*tch.

Yeah.

 

[WizardStan]

If there is a company which promises shipment before Christmas and now in July there is still nothing it's totally understandable that people write angry mails.

I would do that as well.

My problem isn't that people get angry, nor do I necessarily have a problem with people writing angry emails. My problem, here and now, is when people say that Craig is directly responsible for those letters, when people seem to suggest it was an absolute inevitability.Craig's behavior is inexcusable, but he didn't point a gun at anyone's head and force them to send nasty letters to Debs. The people sending those letters made a choice, one choice among an infinite number of things they could have done. When you make a choice, own your choice, don't pretend that you did it as a direct result of someone else's actions with no other possible outcome. We aren't robots.

 

[ZXDunny]

If people throw with shit at you don't ask an other person to stand in front of you.

Eh? Why not? Do you want to get covered in shit? Hell, if someone is flinging the faeces at me, I get behind a colleague. And you have no idea how many times that has happened this week alone.

And yes, I mean literal shit.

D.

 

[crazyhorse]

Did anyone actually speak to or know Debs. I always thought Craig invented her to make his company seem bigger and because people are less likely to send harsh emails. Just a thought, probably wrong though.

 

[Askarus]

That debs resigned is not the fault of the angry people but of those guy who caused the anger and doesn't want to talk to anyone.

I think you're underestimating what raging morons can be like. Here's a snippet from the iCP2 comments:

Didn't know it was that bad.

If there is a company which promises shipment before Christmas and now in July there is still nothing it's totally understandable that people write angry mails.


I would do that as well.

My problem isn't that people get angry, nor do I necessarily have a problem with people writing angry emails. My problem, here and now, is when people say that Craig is directly responsible for those letters, when people seem to suggest it was an absolute inevitability.
Craig's behavior is inexcusable, but he didn't point a gun at anyone's head and force them to send nasty letters to Debs. The people sending those letters made a choice, one choice among an infinite number of things they could have done. When you make a choice, own your choice, don't pretend that you did it as a direct result of someone else's actions with no other possible outcome. We aren't robots.

As I said, didn't know it was that bad.

On the other hand it's somehow understandable, that some people get angry if they only hear the shit from Debs Craig told her.

Did anyone actually speak to or know Debs. I always thought Craig invented her to make his company seem bigger and because people are less likely to send harsh emails. Just a thought, probably wrong though.

Interesting Idea.

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

If there is a company which promises shipment before Christmas and now in July there is still nothing it's totally understandable that people write angry mails.


I would do that as well.

My problem isn't that people get angry, nor do I necessarily have a problem with people writing angry emails. My problem, here and now, is when people say that Craig is directly responsible for those letters, when people seem to suggest it was an absolute inevitability.
Craig's behavior is inexcusable, but he didn't point a gun at anyone's head and force them to send nasty letters to Debs. The people sending those letters made a choice, one choice among an infinite number of things they could have done. When you make a choice, own your choice, don't pretend that you did it as a direct result of someone else's actions with no other possible outcome. We aren't robots.

He didn't point the gun he just bought it 

 

[Askarus]

You better prepare.

 

[WizardStan]

As I said, didn't know it was that bad.

On the other hand it's somehow understandable, that some people get angry if they only hear the shit from Debs Craig told her.

Again, it doesn't matter how bad it is, if it was one or one hundred, the point I'm trying to emphasize here is that if you do anything, no matter if it is malignant or benign, you made the choice, no one coerced you into it (except in cases where coercion has happened of course, I'm hoping I don't have to explain why what is going on here isn't coercion).Write the nasty emails if you want, just don't say that Craig is responsible for those emails. It isn't Craig's fault that people wrote nasty emails any more than it is the boss's fault that the man in my previous analogy went home to beat his wife. Just because someone is an asshole to you does not give you carte blanche to act like an asshole yourself.

Should people be mad at Craig? Probably, he hasn't been transparent with anything, pretty much ever. Should we then automatically forgive people (whether few or many) who sent these threats because "it's human nature"? I say no. I also reject that it is "human nature". Human nature to be angry, perhaps, but humans have successfully not blown themselves up over petty squabbles on several occasions, so I'm quite certain it is within our ability to not send nasty emails no matter how angry we might be.