D-pad Vs Joystick

[Hallie Miles]

I keep running across this in threads all over the forums, and I'm curious - why does everyone hate the joystick on the GP2X?

Personally, I like it; I absolutely abhor d-pads. If the 2x hadn't had a joystick I don't think I'd have bought it.

 

[Critical_Impact]

I'd say the hate for the joystick stems more from the fact that its a digital stick rather then an analog one so it only senses 8 directions rather than varying degrees of pressure like a analog stick does.

 

[Hallie Miles]

I'd say the hate for the joystick stems more from the fact that its a digital stick rather then an analog one so it only senses 8 directions rather than varying degrees of pressure like a analog stick does.

And the d-pad mod is analog? I didn't know that; learn something new every day.

Of course, most of the stuff I play is from the Amiga (which if I remember correctly only a had a couple of things that supported an analog stick), C64 (which didn't support analog at all), or GBA (which I'm not sure about, but seems to work fine on my machine).

 

[mison]

I'd say the hate for the joystick stems more from the fact that its a digital stick rather then an analog one so it only senses 8 directions rather than varying degrees of pressure like a analog stick does.

so what would we need an analog stick for? really, tell me. i guess it's cool if games are coded to make use out of it, but it's kind of useless for anything else, isn't it? especially emulators of systems that don't have an analog stick.
i think most people (including myself) dislike the stick because of its missing precision and huge deadzone.
i like the stick on the gp32 though, as it doesn't have those disadvantages.

 

[Eolair]

There's nothing wrong with digital sticks per se. It's just that GPH choose an industrial stick which isn't designed for gaming. It's inaccurate and has a large dead zone which makes it bad for games that need precision and fast reflexes.

 

[jmetal88]

Nah, the D-Pad mod is digital. What people don't like is the fact that this stick is digital, while they are used to analog sticks. People are already quite used to digital D-pads, so that would have made much more sense for a handheld such as the GP2X. Plus with the digital stick it is sometimes easy to hit the wrong direction (or at least it was on the Mk.1s, the Mk.2s had it rotated around).

 

[saehn]

Right, it's all about the precision. Having a D-pad would make my 2X so much more playable. Down is down, etc. The joystick is just so indeterminate. Most of what we play only needs 8 directions, and the current joystick handles 16. It reminds me of the Intellivision pad.

 

[icurafu]

Did you ever try the original stick (MK1)? I melted mine once I got my DaveC stick.

I think many board members have deep seeded pathological hate for the GP2X stick after that.

Anyway, I agree with the stick on a digital mechanism responce. I'd prefer the d-pad because it has a faster responce.

 

[Hallie Miles]

Hmmm... I seem to be missing something here, or my machine is different from everyone else's.

When I press "Down" on my stick my character goes down; when I press "Right" I go right; when I press "Down-Left" I go diagonally down and left (if the game supports it, anyway). And I don't think I've ever had a problem with the responsiveness of the controls; they seem to work the way I remember the original games working.

What's the "dead zone" you're talking about? Can you suggest a game (and emulator) that would demonstrate it?

 

[quasist]

It is really cool that GP2X has a stick as well as well-placed buttons.
It is better to have favorite USB pad plugged via Cradle for indoor use. Outdoor and in transport it is not fair to play great arcade games

 

[saehn]

Hmmm... I seem to be missing something here, or my machine is different from everyone else's.

If it works for you, great. Maybe it's a generation gap.

When I press "Down" on my stick my character goes down; when I press "Right" I go right; when I press "Down-Left" I go diagonally down and left (if the game supports it, anyway). And I don't think I've ever had a problem with the responsiveness of the controls; they seem to work the way I remember the original games working.

I don't think there can be any argument... "down" on a d-pad is clearer than "down" on the 2X joystick. Try Blast Riot and maybe you'll see what we mean. The 2X has several joystick configurations available to programmers, but none match the ergonomic simplicity of a four-switch d-pad.

What's the "dead zone" you're talking about? Can you suggest a game (and emulator) that would demonstrate it?

Do you know that distance you have to push before "right" will register? That's the dead zone. D-pads don't have that. On/off = simple = ease of use.

 

[scientist]

i dont have too many problems with the joystick.. but i cant believe this doesnt come up more: how small and close together the actual buttons are!

I can barely play snes games, as the buttons are too close to each other, and I cant possibly hit y and a at the same time without a very awkward position.

 

[Hallie Miles]

Hmmm... I seem to be missing something here, or my machine is different from everyone else's.

If it works for you, great. Maybe it's a generation gap.

When I press "Down" on my stick my character goes down; when I press "Right" I go right; when I press "Down-Left" I go diagonally down and left (if the game supports it, anyway). And I don't think I've ever had a problem with the responsiveness of the controls; they seem to work the way I remember the original games working.

I don't think there can be any argument... "down" on a d-pad is clearer than "down" on the 2X joystick. Try Blast Riot and maybe you'll see what we mean. The 2X has several joystick configurations available to programmers, but none match the ergonomic simplicity of a four-switch d-pad.

What's the "dead zone" you're talking about? Can you suggest a game (and emulator) that would demonstrate it?

Do you know that distance you have to push before "right" will register? That's the dead zone. D-pads don't have that. On/off = simple = ease of use.



OK, I just downed Blast Riot and gave it a try.

I do see what you mean by "dead zone," but it seems no different to me than any other joystick I've ever used; if I want to go right I have to PRESS right, not just nudge the stick in that direction. I'd much rather have that than a twitchy control where every time I breath on the stick I'm falling off a cliff. The best stick I ever had for either the 64 or the Amiga was a Wico Command Control; it work exactly like the 2x stick - you had to press to the limit of travel to actuate the switch.

And yes, you do have to be precise in your movements to get the guy to go in the direction you want him to, but I figure that's part of the game. Donkey Kong on the computer was the same way.

MY biggest gripe about d-pads is diagonal control. The first machine I had that used a d-pad instead of a joystick was my Playstation. I HATED that machine until I replaced the stock controller with one with thumbsticks. Then I got a GameBoy Color, and it was the same thing - If I wanted to go up and right I either went up (jumping in place) OR right (falling off that cliff, of course).

But I think you're right - it's the generation gap. I'm used to what I learned with, and am pretty comfortable with it. If I'd grown up with the d-pad I'd probably be peeved about pressing "down" and having my guy try to go "down-right."

One more thing - someone stated that the joystick wasn't designed with games in mind; what was it designed for? Are there small joysticks that WERE designed for gaming that could be swapped out for the stock stick?

 

[Cervante]

games like zelda if I have to move left, right then quick left Its like the joystick stops responding until the joystick is centered again. Thats the dead zone.

 

[P-J]

I think one of the reason people don't like it is because it's too much motion for very little reward.

Most old joysticks used clicky switches so the motion was very easy to make (and precise to boot!). This is the problem with analog sticks but it's a necessary evil.

With the GP2X you get the worst of both worlds-- You have to make quite a big movement for something that should be a short throw and 95% of the movement you're making has no effect whatsoever so it's a waste of time and effort. Hence why people used to love Zipstick/Competition Pro style joysticks.

 

[bacteria]

Using the joystick on the MK2 GP2x works fine, although a D-pad is better. A D-pad is really really needed if your GP2x is version 1 or 1.5.

Best sized D-pad for the GP2x is as per the GBA I think.

 

[kevcal]

Even a d-pad has a dead-zone - the time that it takes you to move your thumb between left & right.

I think the joystick would have been more acceptable to people if there was much less deadzone - as has been said it feels like an analogue stick..

I've always been quite happy with the joystick - my gaming was mostly pre-dpad anyway; maybe they should have designed in both (move volume controls to side).

 

[markiej]

I generally don't mind the stick, until I play a shmup, where precision for all 8 directions is critical. What happens a lot is I'll be performing a circular move of some kind and just freeze in place. dead zone. bshcchchchch (sound effect of ship exploding).

Also, with pacman type games, with only four directions, I seem even more likely to hit a dead spot. Which often screws up the marvelous ruckman. Ladder games sometimes squawk too: like original donkey kong and lode runner - why did they never make a movie of lode runner.
"Meet Jake Lode. He shoots left, He shoots right - he buries his enemies.... ALIVE! He's wanted for a crime he didn't commit, and he's got an appetite for piles of gold left on the floor. Steven Seagal is Jake Lode in.... Lode Runner. Ladderey death arrives Summer '88."

But it plays fine for most other genres: rpgs, standard platformers, stuff like that.

WHat's the best dpad mod (I would like to keep the center-push option though because it pauses videos & I think I need it in some emus)?

 

[HenrikE]

The point isn't preservation of energy, it's precise control so you don't lose in a game due to hardware quirks.

In fact, if the deadzone was big enough it would be more precise. Proof: Play a platformer. Try nudging closer and closer to the edge of a platform until you only have the toes on it. With a good joystick you can do this, with bad ones, not.

The reason a big deadzone is more precise is because it becomes more like a Tac-II stick. It didn't have microswitches. Instead it had a (very snug) "ring" of contacts that registered a hit only when the stick touched it. Not like switched ones where you BOTH have a small distance to reach the "click" and can still push it a little after it's clicked. On good D-Pad these distances are negligible.

So a deadzone 95% as big as the max the joystick can travel will be like a Tac-II and get rid of overshooting (example)/turning 180° too late (Zelda)

Instead of guessing how much you need to move the stick to trigger a move, you get a tactile response - it's when it's at max that you trigger a move, and never otherwise.

 

[P-J]

I totally agree, but the point is whatever you want it to be, whether it's effort, accuracy and whatever. People like/dislike different things for different reasons.

BTW Photon, this is P-J of #abime.net