Commercial Projects

[OrR]

QUOTE
Also, there is a very big difference between games that are not commercially available anymore and have made their money investment back years ago and fresh new indie titles.

Not true. There is no definition of this under law. Every piece of software, is classified the same - unauthorised duplication and distribution is copyright theft. Unless the original IP holders state that the software is freely available, it isn't. However the copyright, even for public domain and free software still remains with the IP holder.

However, I'm as much to blame as anyone else - I'm happy to use emus and ROMs on my various systems, I just don't pretend it's a "grey area" and not at all dodgy.

Of course. However, I don't give a shit about law, all I care about is ethics.

 

[Kramy]

Of course. However, I don't give a shit about law, all I care about is ethics.

I think since most of us are coders, or have spent time designing websites, small games, other programs, etc., we recognize the amount of time and effort that goes into them.

We'd never "steal" from a company trying to make a living doing what we love. On the other hand, if it's an old game that isn't sold/distributed or supported anymore, then why not?

Many of our laws were originally created to protect us people from oppression by tyrannical governments, but tyrannical governments have been replaced by tyrannical companies and corporations instead. Only a couple countries have copyright laws that actually benefit the people.

If you abandon something, it should enter the public domain after a decade or so of no use. Anything that hasn't been sold since 1999 is fair game as far as I'm concerned.

Keyword there is sold. Like I said, I'd never steal from a company trying to make a living - but if the company has gone bankrupt, or the only place I can get it is eBay, then yes, downloading seems acceptable, even if it is illegal according to current laws.

Note: I do not live in the US.

Note2: My Steam account is a testament to me supporting indy devs. :lol:

 

[Shaun199three]

Sorry if this is a stupid question but in another thread I heard the Pandora is about the same powerful as an xbox. Does this mean if there was a commercial game for the Pandora then it could possibly be at the same standard as Xbox games (graphics)? I doubt that there will be any companys making high detail commercial games for the Pandora but I really want to see what the Pandora is truly capable of. Even though playing retro games is often fun, it would be nice to be able to play a game which proves that Pandora is the best Handheld console.

 

[Rockthesmurf]

Okay, well everything people have said with regards to the original topic has been sensible - I have a Pandora on order (hopefully in first 400) and when it arrives and a Windows SDK emerges I'll have a pop and getting Kamicrazy up and running - my initial instinct is it shouldn't take a massive amount of time (although is it just me or do things always take longer than expected!). Once it's in a state that it's working in native game resolution (480x320) I'll probably have to get a couple of people to give it a go to see if they think it'd work for the Pandora (it is a touch screen game, designed to be played with your finger, although I can't see any reason why a stylus wouldn't work), and take it from there. If it's looking good then I'll look in to getting the graphics increased to Pandora resolution - it appears there'll be a few options of how to distribute it, but I'll try and work out the best option to ensure the end user doesn't have any grief.

The engine is currently cross platform for Windows PC/iPhone, with the majority of the code actually being cross platform not just #ifdef's everywhere, the graphics is OpenGL:ES compatible, and the sound is OpenAL compatible, so hopefully audio/renderering will come together without any major glitches. The engine and game code are very separated, and the game code only calls engine functions and stdlib functions, so once the engine is up and running on Pandora we'll have the option of putting future projects in the direction of the Pandora - once again with the main rework needing to be done will be with the graphics, as, for now, we'll carry on targetting iPhone as our main platform.

I'm also aware that it'd be nice to be doing something for the community without getting money back, I'll have a think about if there's anything I/we can do - but to be honest if we get the ourselves setup so we can target the Pandora, if nothing else we should at least hopefully be able to add a few 'commercial' titles to the Pandora achive, and not charge a great deal for them, (I use 'commercial' quite loosely as Apple let just about anything on the iPhone!). But I do work on little non-commercial projects, using the engine, so of course if anything of them were of interest to the community they'd be released for free; so hopefully everyone will be a winner.

So, all we need now is some Pandora's! )

Steve

p.s. there are 'lite' versions of both games available, so I could make sure they appear freely for the Pandora too, for Kamicrazy it's actually 20% of the game, so it's reasonable.

 

[u9i]

I think DRM leaves a bad taste in many people's mouth around here, so i would think twice about incorperating it into my titles for a, to my impression, honest community. DRM was the only thing that kept me from buying payback for the gp2x.

I wish you the best of luck with your games

/u9

 

[Poem58]

I am not a coder and fall into the category of "end user" I would gladly pay a few dollars up to say $10 or even more depending on the quality of the game. I would NOT however buy a game that I could not back up to a CD or DVD for later usage. As I found with my Pocket PC it's nice to be able to save a game and be able to erase it from the card when I'm not going to play it for awhile. Then be able to copy it back when I want to play it. I will have a 1GB card when my Pandora arrives (the one from my Pocket PC) so being able to swap out files will be a must. I guess we can't all assume that everyone will have 2 16GB cards in our Pandora's at all times.
If there is a code that I can save in a text file along side my install file...then I am happy. If it's tied to things that will make removing the game and installing it later difficult, I will just avoid it. Also if in the future a Pandora 2 emerges and if it is still capable of running Pandora 1 software. Something tied to the hardware code etc. could cause all kinds of problems.

So as an end user, I would ask for a code. Maybe something generated from your full name or something personally identifiable. If you install the game and the code translates back to show your name and address or something in the program? Just don't cripple the usage of the game and I would be interested. I do however understand where you come from on wanting to secure it from piracy. I would like to think it wouldn't be an issue with the people interested in this project. Piracy would kill commercial software for the Pandora much faster than it would hurt say Sony. I think that alone would keep people from doing it. Then again, some people will do it no matter what I guess.

Edit: I just had an idea, make the code be your name and credit card number! LOL I'd like to see someone want to share that!

 

[Kramy]

Also if in the future a Pandora 2 emerges and if it is still capable of running Pandora 1 software. Something tied to the hardware code etc. could cause all kinds of problems.

I doubt that'll be the case for a lot of software.

Don't get me wrong - anything generic from the Angstrom repositories should work. Any projects that are designed for ARM + OGL ES 2.0 devices will also probably work on the next ARM + OGL ES 2.0 compatible device.

It's stuff like media players which will be totally broken, or anything that uses the c64x DSP, or anything which uses driver/assembly hacks. In short, less optimized software will be more portable.

But this is years and years off. For now, enjoy.

?

Yes and no.

I doubt that there will be any companys making high detail commercial games for the Pandora but I really want to see what the Pandora is truly capable of. Even though playing retro games is often fun, it would be nice to be able to play a game which proves that Pandora is the best Handheld console.

The Pandora's GPU has more shading power, but less triangle/polygon power. This means commercial games could look even better than on the XBox. The CPU is roughly as powerful, but can be overclocked, and there's also the c64x DSP to work with for specific types of repeating math.

Where it really loses is memory bandwidth. Yes, you have tons of memory - more than any commercial game will need - but you still have to optimize heavily, because everything shares memory bandwidth, which means you don't have a huge amount...

I am convinced that a commercial game could surpass xbox1 quality in multiple ways. The Pandora has a very new architecture well suited to the kinds of stuff we see in modern graphics/games. But which game developer will spend 10 million designing a game in order to sell 10000 $50 copies, for a $9.5m loss?

I'm wondering if we'll see apps like Google Earth running on the Pandora, one day.

 

[Poem58]

Also if in the future a Pandora 2 emerges and if it is still capable of running Pandora 1 software. Something tied to the hardware code etc. could cause all kinds of problems.

I doubt that'll be the case for a lot of software.

Don't get me wrong - anything generic from the Angstrom repositories should work. Any projects that are designed for ARM + OGL ES 2.0 devices will also probably work on the next ARM + OGL ES 2.0 compatible device.

It's stuff like media players which will be totally broken, or anything that uses the c64x DSP, or anything which uses driver/assembly hacks. In short, less optimized software will be more portable.

But this is years and years off. For now, enjoy. :"] [/quote]So what you are saying is what I said? The game could possibly work if a Pandora 2.0 were made? That was my point. IF and I do stress IF this were to happen I would appreciate it if the game I had was not coded to recognize only an old SDHC card code or something tied to a unique Pandora code making my game useless. Undoubtedly this type of DRM scheme would fail to know my new hardware or by then most likely an SDXC or whatever else is around then storage card. Thus the game I paid for is useless.
If every piece of software was guranteed to be obsolete at the next hardware revision then people would be less likely to pay and more likely to want to pirate. IMO.
Even if this never occurs, it was brought up before, what if my card fails? What if I give away my 1GB card the software registered to and picked up a 16GB card?
Does the author want to have to deal with these issues on potentially orders of hundreds or thoudsands of downloads that might want to change cards or use that software on a future system or whatever?
As it was also said, DRM leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I avoid it for reasons like I mentioned here. I was Interested in Spore but once hearing it's DRM crap, I didn't even bother with a demo. Figured I'd like the game but would never buy into a scheme like that.

I'm all for software protection...but there has to be a better way. I for one have bought some of Pocket PC software that had codes that were generated so it came up with your name etc. Seems safe enough for a niche market like this device. Or maybe Dev's could work with the OP Team to devise a strategy where if you are caught using pirated software the dev notifies the OP team and they send out a code that shuts off the Pandora until a fine of $500 is paid for the offense. Of course I'm kidding but that is probably as much a deterrent as SD codes etc. without the hassle for people being honest.

Really I have no big problem with any of it, i just avoid DRM when it might make things difficult for me. My guess is this is probably going to be big enough a project I want to buy...no Idea what it is yet...but the developer seems devoted and excited and that's got my interest...I just don't want DRM gone wrong to spoil it especially so soon in the Pandora's life.
Try a code, if people are A-holes then tell us and even I will not argue about increasing security for the software. I just don;t see it being a problem. the ones who would share out the piracy information would have to share it in the community so we'd all see it.

 

[Adventus]

QUOTE
The Pandora's GPU has more shading power, but less triangle/polygon power. This means commercial games could look even better than on the XBox. The CPU is roughly as powerful, but can be overclocked, and there's also the c64x DSP to work with for specific types of repeating math.
Yea pretty much, although those terms don't really translate, the SGX doesn't have seperate fragment and vertex processors, its a unified architecture. Memory bandwidth is a bit hard to quantify because we have better texture compression and a TBDR. Ultimately, if your smart, I don't think memory bandwidth will be as much of an issue as it has been on past ARM devices. If you heavily utilise NEON the Cortex A8 might achieve near the performance of the Xboxs CPU (it wouldn't beat it though), otherwise it would probably bottleneck significantly in floating point operation.

The real advantage we have over an XBox is programmable shaders, effects that might take them several passes will take us one.

 

[Kramy]

, otherwise it would probably bottleneck significantly in floating point operation.

The real advantage we have over an XBox is programmable shaders, effects that might take them several passes will take us one.

Indeed - it's impossible to quantify the differences.

Floating point seems to be its weakspot, but considering how much mhz we have to play with, I'm not too worried. For many games, features can also be migrated to fixed point. (less doable in a FPS, but more doable in strategy games and 2D games)

I am convinced that a commercial game could surpass xbox1 quality in multiple ways. The Pandora has a very new architecture well suited to the kinds of stuff we see in modern graphics/games.

 

[christo930]

Also, banning obvious names from registration or auditing them can help, depending on your time investment

Anyway, why not?

jeff

The problem with copy protection is that it almost always causes the buyer hassles and the pirate gets a hacked copy anyway and has no hassles. If you have a good game with a good price, people will support you. There will always be people who don't want to pay for it, but they wouldn't pay for it under any circumstances so you are not really loosing anything if they steal it.
Look at the old disk based games. Legitimate buyers had to fuck around typing in phrases and all sorts of dongles and stupid shit and people who stole the games had a better experience than the buyer because they didn't have to deal with any of it.

Chris

 

[fischju2000]

Any commercial Pandora software would certainly be purchased and downloaded online, it shouldn't be any hassle to have a unique serial key and one-time online activation. The Pandora will attract a large user-base of pirates because of what it is, if software has no protection there is a good chance software would be uploaded to some third party site. I doubt the Pandora will get a Waninkoko (a person with the ability and willingness) to crack even simple copy protection.

 

[elwing]

you surely don't need a rock solid security, but since lot of user will buy the pandora as an emulation device and lot of em will steal roms of game they don't own I don't see why lot of em won't try to steal your game... one of the best thing would be a simple online activation i guess... that don't represent much hassle as we already need to download the game and buy it online...

but please make it simple, and that you only need to activate it once on your device... that's not safe at all that way, but the goal is to avoid hastle on the real buyers...

 

[GuyMontag]

one of the best thing would be a simple online activation i guess...

I will not pay for software that needs online activation.

Site down -> Unusable Software :angry:

Learn from Electronic Arts Failure

 

[MarkoeZ]

I think the idea you mentioned could work well in combination with the online activation. Give away a decent portion of the game, and those that really like it and a ready to pay for it can get the extra content activated/downloaded online. Online activation can suck, but if you can first try the game properly, it might make it worth the effort is what i'm trying to say.

And it's not like there will be massive underground Pandora Filearchives with cracked versions of games since most of it is open source anyway. (or will there h34r: *cough*invite* ; )

I'd pay up to 10 euro for a good indie game, 5 for smaller projects (like decent small puzzle games)

 

[gruso]

We used to have gp2xtorrents dot com. I think it's ok to mention it now that it's dead. It was fantastic if you just wanted everything configured and ready to go. But there were no commercial apps on there at all - something I always respected about the scene. You want Payback, you buy. Must admit though, it will probably be a little different now.

I like the idea of lite games that can be unlocked, and I think unique (name embedded?) serial keys and one-off activations are ok.

This next bit is me throwing an idea out there without thinking it over first: Imagine if we approached it not only in terms of software protection, but also in terms of "enforcing" the traditions of the community. So if someone uploaded a commercial app to a torrent site, they would be named and shamed. Of course you'd need to know where the files came from... that starts to get into DRM territory I guess.

 

[WarmFluffyUK]

I would love payback on the Wiz , the GP2X's screen ruined that game for me

 

[icurafu]

serial keys and one-off activations are ok.

This next bit is me throwing an idea out there without thinking it over first: Imagine if we approached it not only in terms of software protection, but also in terms of "enforcing" the traditions of the community. So if someone uploaded a commercial app to a torrent site, they would be named and shamed. Of course you'd need to know where the files came from... that starts to get into DRM territory I guess.

yeah, gp2xtorrents was great. That's the way it should be.

 

[u9i]

one of the best thing would be a simple online activation i guess...

I will not pay for software that needs online activation.

Site down -> Unusable Software :angry:

Even worse: Company gone / left scene -> Unusable software forever.

I find it ridiculous to integrate name, credit card number(?) or whatever into a serial key. As the seller you will always know who's serial is floating around. Is there something i am missing?

I agree with christo930. In my opinion DRM only causes your honest customers hazzle without making you any money. Personally i hope this DRM trend stops. World of Goo, lead the way!

 

[Kramy]

or whatever into a serial key. As the seller you will always know who's serial is floating around. Is there something i am missing?

It certainly removes any incentive to give your key out! :lol:

But the real pirates will just generate fake keys. Only way to get around that is price yourself so it doesn't matter, or have trust that people will buy your game and don't spend any time or effort on thwarting piracy.