Commercial Development

[GodBeastX]

I've been looking at handheld devices for a long time on behalf of my software company. We're very interested in doing handheld entertainment development, especially on upcomming handheld devices. So far we've worked with iPhones and similar devices. However, Pandora caught my eye simply for the sake of the sheer power the hardware has. I'm very impressed with what's being done with this handheld. However, I see little in the way of information for commercial development.

Is this system meant only for hobbyists or is there official tools and sdks planned to be released for a commercial software development? Are there special hardware devices that can be acquired in order to develope more efficiently? What sort of piracy thwarting does the device have if any? (Even if we code something for 5$ a copy, if everyone has it for 0$ there's no value in commercial development). What sort of distribution methods would exist for software? Etc etc.

Whatever information, links, or what not people can provide would be great as I am working on some proposals right now for the execs here.

 

[PoisonedV]

You might want to talk to them directly. the 'bobs game' team appear to have done so, and thats working well.

 

[sterling976]

I've been looking at handheld devices for a long time on behalf of my software company. We're very interested in doing handheld entertainment development, especially on upcomming handheld devices. So far we've worked with iPhones and similar devices. However, Pandora caught my eye simply for the sake of the sheer power the hardware has. I'm very impressed with what's being done with this handheld. However, I see little in the way of information for commercial development.

Is this system meant only for hobbyists or is there official tools and sdks planned to be released for a commercial software development? Are there special hardware devices that can be acquired in order to develope more efficiently? What sort of piracy thwarting does the device have if any? (Even if we code something for 5$ a copy, if everyone has it for 0$ there's no value in commercial development). What sort of distribution methods would exist for software? Etc etc.

Whatever information, links, or what not people can provide would be great as I am working on some proposals right now for the execs here.

I think you may have missed the fact that this is an open device. It is, indeed, targeted primarily at hobbyists (see the FAQ). That said, there's nothing wrong with commercial software on open platforms, even closed commercial software (I know I risk getting flamed for saying so, but hey, it's my opinion, I'll own it).

Start with the FAQ. I can't speak for the developers' future aspirations, but there's no official SDK at present. However, any software developer familiar with linux should be able to get going on it with a minimum of hassle. They won't necessarily need an SDK. I don't know of any current anti-piracy software specific to linux, but I'm firmly anti-DRM (again, my opinion, not necessarily anyone else's), so I don't really go looking for technology I don't have a use for. I do think you'll get a much better response from the Pandora community (read: better sales) if you don't employ any form of DRM anyway.

As for distribution methods and related topics, I'd suggest searching through this forum on the following terms and reading from there:

pxml
software repository

I'd strongly encourage you to engage a software developer within your company for help deciphering some of the more in-depth posts you'll find here. Point them at this forum and see what they come back with. They may be able to save you quite a bit of time, and give you a fuller understanding of what the open-source culture is all about.

Once you've gotten that far, yeah, PoisonedV hit it on the head. Send a private message to Squidge, Craigix, EvilDragon or one of the other developers and see if you can open a dialog. Just don't be too surprised if they're a bit tied up right now. They've got a product to get out the door, after all.

 

[Squidge]

If you use SDL, you should be able to get much of the development done under Windows or Linux on a PC, and just using a couple of Pandora's for checking the speed of things.

As for protection, there are two sd cards, you can easily lock your application to the sd card it runs from by reading the CID or accessing the secure information area which typical users can't read nor write and do challenge / response, or store other licensing info there for stronger protection.

However, due to the market of the product, don't be suprised if people refuse to buy such copy protected software. Some of them are pure open-source geeks after all, who even moan about the closed source gfx and wifi drivers - don't ask what they'll do about software locked to a particular sd card

 

[PoisonedV]

For GP2X, I never saw really very much piracy from the very few (2?) english commercial GP2X titles- i think it could be wrote down to not just the small audience of the GP2X but also the community.

 

[GodBeastX]

I think you may have missed the fact that this is an open device. It is, indeed, targeted primarily at hobbyists (see the FAQ). That said, there's nothing wrong with commercial software on open platforms, even closed commercial software (I know I risk getting flamed for saying so, but hey, it's my opinion, I'll own it).



Nah, I didn't miss that it was meant for open dev. I mean, PCs are just as well meant for open dev. Knowing what you can and can't do when developing is part of the way to go about things. And while people might think "Man, that's cruel and unusual punishment to release a software you have to pay for (Lord knows I used to think that before I was a programmer)" some people need to eat still.

Thanks for the replies everyone. This seems to be exactly what I gathered, which hasn't turned me off to the device at all, but gave me better expectations. And no, I likely won't be using SDL for any projects (It's never sat well with me).

 

[Squidge]

Open source programmers typically consume food such as noodles (in all there various disguises) from the local $1 store, and, if they are desperate, free samples from the local grocery store. Theres no reason why other programmers can't eat the same food

As for SDL, if you don't use it, then your going to have to find another way to abstract the hardware. The beauty of SDL is that it'll run on (practically) anything, and learning it is generally quicker and easier than writing multiple versions of your own library.

 

[sterling976]

And while people might think "Man, that's cruel and unusual punishment to release a software you have to pay for (Lord knows I used to think that before I was a programmer)" some people need to eat still.

I don't think you'll find too many of those type of people here. After all, almost 4000 of us have shelled out several hundred dollars for an open device that doesn't even exist yet. B)

One of the upsides to having a customer base that consists almost entirely of hobbyists is that we understand the value of effort.

 

[skeezix]

Aside from anything else ..

For now consider; 4000 units maximum out there. Its a tough one right now .. even if you sell something for $5 profit, to half those people (unlikely), thats still 2000*5 or 10k profit, which is nothing to a commercial entity.

Theres more units in the pipe _for sure_ in 2009, and coding is very easy (in theory.) so your mileage may vary.

But for now, I doubt there is much commercial potential per se, except for those who just want to do it for fun sake. This one for now is for the small guy.

That said, depending on the type of game, you could also target netbooks and other small machines; make the code portable and get it onto some PDAs too, and iphone of course...

jeff

 

[Svartalf]

Aside from anything else ..

For now consider; 4000 units maximum out there. Its a tough one right now .. even if you sell something for $5 profit, to half those people (unlikely), thats still 2000*5 or 10k profit, which is nothing to a commercial entity.

Depends on the commercial entity. $10-20k in profit for a title that wasn't selling (because it was "old" on a PC), but would sell out the door for $5-10 each would be a good thing for a commercial entity. An indie might be swayed by those sorts of figures if they knew it was going to draw that much and only cost them $3k on the low end or 5-6k on the high end (with a $20k return...). An indie might also be swayed by a $20-50k return on a $5-10k investment on their part or similar.

QUOTE

Theres more units in the pipe _for sure_ in 2009, and coding is very easy (in theory.) so your mileage may vary.



If the memory profile can be brought to ~64Mb of RAM, the odds are good you can target a title to Linux in general and scoop up Pandora and x86 sales. Done right, there's a seriously underserved market here. Easily something on the order of $25-75k per title on all Linux-centric platforms. Good Old Games, Gamersgate, and a few others are starting to court this space. If you can make it work on Pandora, it won't be hard to code for both spaces and scoop up that magic "real money" amount.

QUOTE

But for now, I doubt there is much commercial potential per se, except for those who just want to do it for fun sake. This one for now is for the small guy.



Heh... You won't have me disagreeing on the "small guy" remark- just what the definition of "small guy" actually is...

QUOTE

That said, depending on the type of game, you could also target netbooks and other small machines; make the code portable and get it onto some PDAs too, and iphone of course...


Done right, you can target Nokia, iPhone, Pandora, and x86 Linux which could go on Netbooks and desktops. Done right, you can get 'real money' for a title.

That part's not easy (Lord only knows, I've been at it for some 5 years now, off and on- and I've not seen a slim dime out of it yet...)- but it's more doable with the Pandora coming than the merry-go-round that we've had in the past.

 

[Wertigon]

What sort of piracy thwarting does the device have if any? (Even if we code something for 5$ a copy, if everyone has it for 0$ there's no value in commercial development).

The Pandora is more or less made for the homebrew crowd, but making a commercial game for the Pandora is probably very viable, as long as you keep the budgets small.

That said, I'd like to tell you the secret recipe to profit on a homebrew console (and in a world with rampant piracy); make something good enough worth paying for! Most people are willing to part with their money if they feel it gives good value for the money. Even if they can get it for free. It's finding that specific price that is important.

Also (and this is from my personal experience and opinion), I don't think one should be afraid of piracy. Rather, see it as free advertisment. How?

Well, my basic argument goes like this; imagine two games. A and B. A has draconian copy protection and is impossible to crack. B is distributed freely. The games are next to identical (think Quake 3 vs Unreal Tournament). Now, without mixing in piracy, let's say that A sells 1000 copies, and B sells 800.

Now, mix in piracy. Game A will still sell 1000 copies. What about B? Well, let's say that it gets copied 10 000 times, and that 5% of those who did copy it decides to go out and buy it - it's cheap enough and good enough for them. 5% of 10 000 is 500, so Game B has 1300 sales, while Game A still has 1000 sales. Game B sells more, and, what's more, many of these people will most likely stand in line to buy the sequel, since they were happy customers. They like what your company is doing and shows it by paying you and saying "GIEF MOAR!!!". Also, they won't be coming back six months down the road and wonder why their game won't work anymore because the copy protection was too restrictive.

Again, these views are my own and I am not affiliated with Pandora devs in any way, shape or form (more than being one of the 4000 preorderers ). And I do realise that my views are quite unorthodox. Not trying to say that it's good breaking the law, only that filesharing isn't all bad.

Finally, if you're still interested in this, talk to Yuan Works and how they did it. They did a wonderful little puzzle game called "Wind & Water: Puzzle Battles", and released it to the GP2X and DreamCast. They have first-hand experience of developing commercial games to homebrew consoles, and will probably be happy to tell you how it went for them and what pitfalls to look out for.

 

[Prophet]

Well, for what little it's worth - I will buy a game made for the Pandora if it's good and not too costly. And there are others that would as well. But yeah, like Skeezix said, this community will never be ideal profit-wise for a commercial entity. Thus we will never exist to the Capcoms and EA's of the world.

However, if you look at the Pandora as a fun testbed platform with a mostly friendly community of very game/tech knowledgeable geeks - it still might be worth your time. Try it out on us, then polish it up and port it to more profitable but less interesting platforms. I also don't think piracy will matter much around here - GP32, GP2X, Zodiac... never saw much piracy in any of them. Plenty enough free stuff to play with emus and homebrew already. I think people will drop a few bucks now and then if they really want a game. Heck, lots of us donated money upfrontwhen we bought our Pandoras. We will support good devs with money when it makes sense.

Just a thought.

 

[u9i]

I agree with Wertigon.

I myself did not buy Payback for the GP2X because it had some protection, which resulted in people having trouble starting the game.

Afaik spore has gone as far as to require an internet connection for playing, and allows only 3 installs... Damn, I can't believe people accept such nazi-terms.

I also never buy bigger commercial games because I do not want to insert the damn CD every time I want to play it. I would rather pirate it then go through that hassle every time. But I do buy quite a few smaller unrestricted games, e.g. Trembling towers, Galcon, Triptych, etc. etc. all downloadable.

 

[.Gogeta§§J4BR.]

I'd gladly pay for BikeOrDie for the Pandora... damn, now that was a great palm os game! it would be simply perfect for the Pandora...

 

[valhalla]

I believe that the pandora community will be glad to have a few commercial titles and somebody will surely buy them: of course with 4000 early adopters, not all of them enjoying the same genres, it will be hard to find a sizable market, but for future batches the numbers may (hopefully) grow

as for DRM, chances are that sooner or later it will be cracked, so I would suggest not to waste money on it: people are going to copy the game anyway and at least you don't alienate your clients with cumbersome restrictions. A community of homebrewers is likely to try and reward good developers, so they will buy a good game even if they could download it illegaly, expecially if they get the feeling to be treated as customers and not criminals.

 

[sebt3]

I have a chip in my wii only to be able to test game (downloaded) before I actually buy it. If I play a game more than once, than I go to the shop and get my legit copy.
I started downloading and burning music in the mid 90ies, I'm still buying CDs in store...

I didn't download (nor buy) Spore, just because of the DRM. And you know what, I'm sure a lot of us here think the same way.

Be sure I won't look for pandora torrent. But if I am able to test your game(s) (2 levels, or 10 day trial) and I feel it worth the price, you have a customer
As said before, you won't earn lots of money with us, but we are a good brunch of beta tester And if you're looking to have a multi-plateform game, then it will worth the effort.

my 2cents

 

[Julius]

Just make sure not to develop a game that has strong direct competition from a game emulated on the Pandora.

Otherwise there really isn't much of a difference to making a commercial game for the PC.

 

[hobbyman II]

and if you need any more coaxing, look at the dev fund for an example of community, many of the pre-order people paid up front into the fund, effectively paying for stuff that does not even exist yet, that's what you get when you are fair and honest with customers, I think that sadly that's a dying trend, most companies (online or high street) look on customers as victims to milked dry ASAP imo, I tend to boycott em, but it`s getting I have to make exceptions or I`ll be stuck for somewhere to buy food and clothes....lol

Hobbyman

 

[Username]

Instead of making a game with DRM (which I despise), you could give it good online play and have it activate through your servers.

 

[fischju2000]

Many TI chipsets have built in content protection systems (hardware level), I've read about them but don't remember if the OMAP3530 has this feature.