Cellular Discussion [Split from] Bugs and Calculations

[edgex004]

This is absolutely not true. A tmobile 3G chip will work just fine

I believe he is referring to the fact that the PHS8-P does not seem to support 1700/2100. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Wireless_Services

From the data sheets, it looks like the US version of the 4G chip supports this spectrum, but the world-wide 3G chip does not. T-Mobile has rights to this band in the US and used it to deploy their 3G network, which would suggest that the 3G chip may be limited to 2G on the T-Mobile network.

 

[TheOldOne]

I believe he is referring to the fact that the PHS8-P does not seem to support 1700/2100. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Wireless_Services

From the data sheets, it looks like the US version of the 4G chip supports this spectrum, but the world-wide 3G chip does not. T-Mobile has rights to this band in the US and used it to deploy their 3G network, which would suggest that the 3G chip may be limited to 2G on the T-Mobile network.

This exactly. I would love to be wrong and have the PHS8-P actually fully support T-Mobile but unless the Specs sheet is incomplete then 3G on T-Mobile will only work in the areas they have switched over to 1900.

 

[Silent-Hunter]

Companies have ZERO business making their own private spectrums like that. That is ridiculous!

 

[TheOldOne]

It's less T-Mobile wanting a non standard spectrum for evil and more them working around the crazy US wireless laws.

 

[Silent-Hunter]

It's less T-Mobile wanting a non standard spectrum for evil and more them working around the crazy US wireless laws.

Hmm... Well maybe, but now it's all split off.

 

[Grench]

To my understanding, the US prototypes are supposed to have the US 4G GSM chips on them.

If it has not been done yet by one of the early prototype devs, I plan to try to test this on the AT&T network. Someday when I receive my paid prototype. (questions about this should go in my blogesque thread in Pyra-general)

Yes, the US mobile phone system is highly fractured, confusing and annoying. To gather any understanding requires naming the carriers. I did a lot of research on this and have come to the conclusion that GSM is probably the way to most likely get a Pyra working on the US mobile networks. This is background on why I came to that conclusion. When I originally looked into this I was on US Cellular. I have since moved my families service to AT&T which included buying 4 phones.

GSM and CDMA have a near 50/50 split on the US market.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mobile_network_operators_of_the_Americas#United_States

The largest US mobile phone operator is Verizon CDMA at 140 million customers.
The second largest is AT&T GSM at 128 million customers
The third largest is T-mobile GSM at 63.2 million customers
The fourth largest is Sprint CDMA at 57.9 million customers
The fifth largest is US Cellular CDMA at 4.9 million customers
The remaining 7 US carriers total 2.4 million customers and could be seen as niche.

CDMA may be ~203 million customers, but each carrier has it's own frequencies and phones do not generally interchange.

GSM may be ~ 191 million customers, but the two primary carriers utilize the same frequencies and phones generally interchange.

CDMA phones from one carrier are usually NOT allowed to be used on another CDMA carrier. Your Verizon phone will generally not work to it's full capabilities if you attempt to move it to Sprint or US Cellular for example. Although each of these do use CDMA for it's communication functions, they also each use different bands and the phones they sell tend to be optimized or in some cases restricted to those bands. There are, of course, exceptions to this rule.

GSM phones from AT&T if 'carrier unlocked' generally work on T-mobile and T-mobile phones if 'carrier unlocked' generally work on AT&T, though there are no guarantees and people have had better or worse results trying to port phones to carriers.

Using the Samsung Galaxy Note III as an example, there are several US versions of this phone to match the fractured carrier networks.
http://www.slashgear.com/samsung-galaxy-note-iii-detailed-with-nine-carrier-editions-10289885/
Each US carrier has it's own sub-model number specific to the carrier it was intended for and 'carrier locked' to.
• Verizon version SM-N900V
• AT&T version SM-N900A
• Sprint version SM-N900S
• T-Mobile version SM-N900T

All of the carriers prefer that you use phones purchased from them on their network. A few have room for exceptions as they try to encourage carrier switching.

AT&T has a 'byop' bring your own phone option where you can purchase a SIM card for use in your US GSM device:
https://www.att.com/shop/wireless/byop.html
To my understanding, many T-mobile sold phones -should- qualify for this IF you can get T-mobile to 'carrier unlock' them.

T-mobile has a VERY similar program to AT&T's wherin the primary constraint appears to be that the device is US GSM.
https://support.t-mobile.com/docs/DOC-6991
To my understanding, many AT&T sold phones -should- qualify for this IF you can get AT&T to 'carrier unlock' them.

Verizon has a 'similar' program, but requires that the device originally be a Verizon sold phone.
http://www.verizonwireless.com/mobile-living/network-and-plans/verizon-bring-your-own-phone-faq/

Sprint may or may not approve a non-sprint device and requires that you bring them the device or call them to chat about it.
http://www.sprint.com/landings/bring-your-own-phone/

US Cellular, I was unable to find any 'byop' bring your own phone information.

Now we get to the Pyra. The Pyra will be a device unlike any that the carrier's store clerk will have ever seen. The easiest way to classify it to them will likely be as either a 'connected tablet' or 'computer with built in mobile radio'. It appears that it may be possible with AT&T or T-mobile to order a SIM card online for this 'other' device.

In the US, GSM appears to be the 'path of least resistance'. One device should be able to be used on either of the primary GSM networks.

A US CDMA Pyra would likely need direct and specific to the carrier support to be allowed in. The device would potentially need to be tailored for any given CDMA carrier.

Even IF there were a 3G version of the US Pyra, it is unlikely to be accepted onto any of the CDMA networks.

With the 4G GSM we at least have a -chance- that they could work on AT&T and/or T-mobile as they appear to be far more 'SIM is the device' friendly.

So, whether it is a 3G or 4G chip in the US Pyra, the carrier options will most likely still be limited to the two GSM providers.

ED may already have a developer prototype heading to someone in the US to test the Pyra 4G GSM on either/both AT&T &/or T-mobile. I don't know. If that hasn't been done before I receive my US 4G GSM Pyra prototype, then I intend to find out. Unfortunately, the timing on this might wind up being -after- ED needs to open the pre-orders which would result in a degree of uncertainty in the process. Hopefully ED and a US dev are 'all over it' and will have this sorted out before pre-orders begin.
[doublepost=1460502170,1460501547][/doublepost]What size SIM card fits in the SIM/uSD spot in the Pyra?
https://www.att.com/shop/wireless/devices/simcards.html

I wonder... If I run a neck-lanyard through the wrist strap hole and hang it around my neck if it would qualify as a 'wearable' for the monthly access charge...?
https://www.att.com/shop/wireless/data-plans.html

 

[WizardStan]

Even IF there were a 3G version of the US Pyra, it is unlikely to be accepted onto any of the CDMA networks

I thought the discussion was about WCDMA, not CDMA. I don't think anyone seriously expects to use this on a CDMA network, that's a pretty easy argument to shut down.

 

[Silent-Hunter]

I just want to use my Pyra on A mobile network. I don't care if it's 4G, 3G, or even only 2G, and I don't really care which network either. I just want to replace my phone and Pandora with a single device.

 

[Grench]

I thought the discussion was about WCDMA, not CDMA. I don't think anyone seriously expects to use this on a CDMA network, that's a pretty easy argument to shut down.

http://www.differencebetween.net/technology/difference-between-cdma-and-wcdma/

Non GSM US networks are CDMA. WCDMA is a GSM protocol and has nothing to do with US CDMA or CDMAone networks.

Yes, it has to be that confusing.

 

[WizardStan]

Non GSM US networks are CDMA. WCDMA is a GSM protocol and has nothing to do with US CDMA or CDMAone networks.

Yeah, I'm well aware of the difference, that's why I said I thought we were discussing WCDMA, trying to figure out why you were bringing up CDMA.

 

[Grench]

Yeah, I'm well aware of the difference, that's why I said I thought we were discussing WCDMA, trying to figure out why you were bringing up CDMA.

Because we were discussing US carrier options. Verizon, Sprint and US Cellular are all CDMA which essentially makes them non-options for the Pyra. Regardless of 3G vs 4G. That means the realistic options are AT&T or T-mobile. Those two carriers, being GSM are the only viable options. On those two, and only those two, the US 4G GSM module should be a direct plug in your SIM and work experience.

 

[WizardStan]

Verizon, Sprint and US Cellular are all CDMA

Yes, but those were already established to be no-gos unless ED got the PLS8-X, and then it only becomes a maybe, if Sprint and Verizon will allow it. Or did I skip a bunch of steps and infer something that wasn't actually said until you explicitly laid it out? I tend to do that sometimes.

 

[Grench]

Yes, but those were already established to be no-gos unless ED got the PLS8-X, and then it only becomes a maybe, if Sprint and Verizon will allow it. Or did I skip a bunch of steps and infer something that wasn't actually said until you explicitly laid it out? I tend to do that sometimes.

You and I are on the same page then.

It was not explicit before and feeding from the news discussion leading into this, I felt the need to clarify with 'why' there really are only 2 options for US carriers.

I also consider this to trump and defeat any claims that crippling the US device with 3G has any compatibility advantages - it does not.

The US 4G GSM module, being theoretically compatible and fast with the only two viable US networks should make this a non-argument.

 

[Ocean112]

It's just too bad that it's too late to move the modem/antenna/sim to another daughterboard.

Edit: Although purchasing a different mainboard would be a possibility if they release a better modem in the future I guess.

 

[emcee]

I think the whole "Selling a 4G EU and 3G Worldwide model" might not be a bad idea to work around MOQ, as some EU people seem to be fine settling for 3G, it could balance things out. A poll would help. Something like:

• If there isn't a 4G EU modem, I'd buy the WiFi model
  
• If there isn't a 4G US modem, I'd buy the WiFi model
• If there isn't a 4G EU modem, I'd buy the 3G Worldwide modem
• If there isn't a 4G US modem, I'd buy the 3G Worldwide modem
• I don't want a 4G EU or US modem, I want a 3G Worldwide modem
• I want WiFi

With a note clarifying that the US modem will work in the US, Canada (?) and some Latin American countries while the EU modem will work in the rest of the world (with some overlap on some US-like frequency Latin American countries). Also price attached.

I think you might miss a useful data point if you don't include this option: "If there isn't a 4G modem, I won't be preordering a first batch Pyra".

 

[Swordfish II]

I just want to use my Pyra on A mobile network. I don't care if it's 4G, 3G, or even only 2G, and I don't really care which network either. I just want to replace my phone and Pandora with a single device.

Well TBH 2G would be crap. I'll just phone tether at that point.

 

[ible]

It was not explicit before and feeding from the news discussion leading into this, I felt the need to clarify with 'why' there really are only 2 options for US carriers.

Can I refer you to the FAQ?

I think there was some possibility of being allowed on one of the CDMA carriers' network through their data plan, but not their voice/sms one, just due to how their data network can work (on GSM). But that's a big if, IMO. But if someone with the relevant network knowledge wants to add it to the FAQ (or Carrier Compatibility page), please go ahead.

In fact, this post has been brought to you by the "ible for wiki" campaign, which encourages you to fill out your local wiki.

 

[Faust]

How much would the Pyra cost if you put the 3g chip, compared to the 4g chip?

To add the 3g/4g chip, do you need to make it through the factory, or you can do it by yourself?

If you are able to do it later by yourself without extra cost for you, maybe the most interesting thing to do in first place is to sell the Pyra without any chip, you can start with only one price and not problems with who wants what.

You would be able to sell the module later and add it when the customer ship you back the Pyra.

It would give you more time, let you do the mass production and maybe let you find an other deal to buy the 4g chip.

 

[levi]

To add the BGA GSM chip you need a reflow oven, or access to the kind of wave soldering (I think it's called) they use in manufacturing. You can make your own reflow oven using a cheap desktop single oven and extensively modifying it, but I for one will not be putting my Pyra board into any kind of cheap oven.

But to buy a replacement peripheral/main board from ED while retaining your existing CPU board should not be as expensive as a whole new Pyra.

Prices for the different chips were published to these boards by ED somewhere, but I'm too lazy right now to find them. It didn't strike me as excessively expensive, if enough people can be found.

 

[TheOldOne]

If the PLS8-X is used there in theory it would work on Verizons 3G network and Verizon claims they will now allow any compatible unlocked "phone" but they probably still wouldn't and sprint will just say no.